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Theme Changer

 Topic: The probability of understanding probability

 (Read 1695 times)
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  • The probability of understanding probability
     OP - May 13, 2012, 05:07 AM

    the first half of this is a boring explanation of basic probabilities, and most likely, pointless reading.

    Consider two playing cards. For example; the ace of diamonds, and the 7 of clubs.
    If you shuffle these two cards, and then look at the first card, there are two possibilities, each with equal probability. Either the first card can be the ace of diamonds, or it can be the 7 of clubs.

    Let us say that the first card turns out to be the ace of diamonds. This is an event with a probability of 0.5, or 1 in 2.

    If we add a third card and repeat the experiment, we now have two events to consider and multiply together.

    1.   The probability of the first card
    2.   The probability of the second card

    Since there are three cards to choose from, event number one had a probability of 0.3333, or 1 in 3. Since there are two cards to choose from, event number two had a probability of 0.5, or 1 in 2.

    The probability that these cards ended up in this order was 0.333 multiplied by 0.5, which is 0.1666, or 1 in 6.
    If we continue this with experiment with an entire pack of (52) cards, whatever it is, the first card has a probability of 1 in 52, and the second has a probability of 1 in 51, etc etc etc .

    In other words, the probability for a pack of cards to end up in any one order is 1 in (52 x 51 x 50 x 49 x 48 x 47 ..........x 3 x2 x 1), or 52 factorial.



    When you shuffle a pack of cards, the probability that it ended up in that order was: One chance in 80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000
    If you do this experiment twice, you have now just witnessed an event with a probability of one chance in a number greater than the number of atoms in the universe.

    It is often claimed by idiots that such events are impossible, but as you can see for yourself, not only are they possible, they happen all day, every day. If such an idiot were to be consistent with their logic, then they would be forced to conclude that every time a pack of cards is shuffled, a miracle happens, because it is so unlikely that this event could happen ‘just by chance’.

    The mistake that idiots make is in assigning significance to an event that has already happened. Probabilities are useful for future events. Events that have already happened have a probability of 1 in 1, no matter how unlikely they were beforehand.
    If you were to predict the order of the pack of cards before it had been shuffled, that would be an extremely impressive feat. However, to simply work out the odds of it happening in retrospect is utterly meaningless.

    If a person believes that probabilities determined in retrospect prove that life needs a designer, or that the universe is too fine tuned to occur naturally, then the probability that this person understands probabilities is extremely low indeed. The arguments they propose are examples of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, in which you draw the target around the bullet hole after it has been fired.

  • Re: The probability of understanding probability
     Reply #1 - May 13, 2012, 05:29 AM

    I don't think the important thing here is whether the event has already occurred, more whether the even was significant. Picking a random card from 1 in a billion isn't impressive if it's as insignificant as the rest of them. The chances of picking an insignificant card out of a billion insignificant cards is 1 in 1, not 1 in a billion. Picking the one gold card among a billion plain cards, now that would be noteworthy. Likewise if the odds of a universe existing with the right constants to give rise to life is tiny, and all other possible manifestations/arrangements would give rise to completely insignificant worlds, then the fine-tuning argument couldn't just be dismissed. But of course we have a sample size of ... 1 universe. Who knows what else is possible. Obviously we find it remarkable because it's hospitable to us (and obviously has to be...). But you can't say your house is special just because it's yours...
  • Re: The probability of understanding probability
     Reply #2 - May 13, 2012, 06:18 AM

    The thing about events that have occurred is that regardless of how unlikely they seem, they are obviously perfectly possible. Some people let themselves be overly impressed by large numbers, and effectively convince themselves that they are witnessing the impossible when this is obviously not the case. Instead of trying to think of ways in which the large numbers may or may not be all that relevant, they just sit there going "Wow man, that's a really big number." I think this is largely because most people don't seem to have any real feel for mathematics, and don't really want to either.


    I actually drafted a parody of this the last time we had a big hoo-ha about probability on this forum. I thought it might be fun to tease some people about how the very existence of the entire universe is being gravely endangered by coffee. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The probability of understanding probability
     Reply #3 - May 13, 2012, 03:43 PM

    There are at least 2 universes in a fine-tuned model. The macrocoism supposedly fine-tuned for carbon-based biological life and the proto-coism where gods can create these macrocoisms in their spare time. But of course, the proto-coism doesn't need to be fine-tuned for gods cuz they is speshul.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The probability of understanding probability
     Reply #4 - May 13, 2012, 04:04 PM

    Quote
    the proto-coism doesn't need to be fine-tuned for gods cuz they is speshul.


    That is a better refutation of their argument. God is not limited by anything. God can create a universe that works perfectly well even without fine tuning anything. He can create life that lives in the centre of the sun, or in a black hole if he so chose.
  • The probability of understanding probability
     Reply #5 - December 09, 2013, 09:48 PM

    I got into a  debate about this rubbish again today.
    I ended up writing a list of 9 questions which I think are worth keeping for next time.



     1. Do you agree that the probability of picking any specific card out of a deck of 52 is 1/52?

    2. Do you agree that the probability of picking any specific second card out of what remains of the deck is 1/51?

    2. Do you agree that the probability of both those events happening is 1 in 52 x 51?

    3. Do you agree that the probability resulting from continuing this process (going through the whole deck) is 1 in 52 x 51 x 50 x 49 x 48 ….[etc]…x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 (A.K.A =52 factorial)?

    4. Do you agree that repeating the entire process for another deck of card has the exact same probability?

    5.Do you agree that the probability for both of these events (going through two decks) is 52! X 52!?

    6. Do you agree that the probability for three decks is 52! X 52! X 52!?

    7. Do you agree that 52! X 52! X 52! = 524741215093378492284441746845716049893359819072000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000 (AKA rounding down to 5.247412 x 10^203)

    8. Do you agree that 5.247412 x 10^203 is a number larger than 1 x 10^139? [or whatever number the creationist claims is impossible]

    9. Do you agree that it is not only possible, but possible and mundane to shuffle three decks of cards?

    If the answer to all of the above questions is yes, then you have agreed that an event with a probability way higher than 1 in 1 x 10 ^139 is possible and not necessarily even interesting.

    Such events are only significant if they are not calculated after they have already happened. For example, if you gave me the specific order that the three decks of cards would end up, before it happened.

    If your answer to any of the above questions is no, then which ones, and why?
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