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Theme Changer

 Topic: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...

 (Read 9677 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     OP - June 03, 2012, 08:12 PM

    This is a question that had been bugging me for a long time.

    So why did Muhammad devote countless sleepless hours at night praying if he did not believe in Allah? Also the countless hours he devoted to praying during the day as well and reciting the Qu'ran? Surely if someone is this devoted they believe 100% that their God exists? I find it hard to buy the theory that he created Islam consciously for power, using Allah at the forefront, with this in mind. It doesn't make sense why someone would be so devoted to praying to someone who they clearly know doesn't exist. So what is your opinion?
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #1 - June 03, 2012, 08:27 PM

    If it's been reported then it was observed (or made up but that's not the point...), if it was observed it could easily be a ploy to make people ask that very question^

    Not that I think he didn't believe his own crap to an extent.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #2 - June 03, 2012, 08:44 PM

    I just want to ask. Does it follow from these assumptions that we ought to believe that Allah exists because it has been reported that Muhammad spent nights reading the Quran or standing at night praying till his heels bled?
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #3 - June 03, 2012, 08:50 PM

    I just want to ask. Does it follow from these assumptions that we ought to believe that Allah exists because it has been reported that Muhammad spent nights reading the Quran or standing at night praying till his heels bled?


    Lol where did you get that jibe from in my post? :lol:.

    No of coruse not, it was just something which has just been bugging me. For some reason, it leads me to believe, that at least in Muhammad's mind, Allah existed. Or maybe it was a ploy as said above. Guess we'll never know, but makes for an interesting discussion.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #4 - June 03, 2012, 08:50 PM

    Or maybe he just used to meditate and people rewrote what he did as prayer.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #5 - June 03, 2012, 08:54 PM

    My friend. These were not jibes at you. Sorry if you misunderstood. The comment was meant to be rhetorical. Sorry for the Socratic approach. Let me ask though. What's your opinion?
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #6 - June 03, 2012, 08:58 PM

    My friend. These were not jibes at you. Sorry if you misunderstood. The comment was meant to be rhetorical. Sorry for the Socratic approach. Let me ask though. What's your opinion?


    No offense was taken mate.  Wink

    Well I'm sure 99.9% certain Islam is not true (Unless Allah has done all the flaws and gaps found in Islam on purpose  dance). In terms of this topic, I just find it fascinating that someone could devote so many hours praying to something they know is certainly not true.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #7 - June 03, 2012, 09:06 PM

    Maybe Muhammad sincerely believed that he was hearing voices. We have a massive 1400 year gap and reports from which to speculate. That's assuming the reports are trustworthy to begin with. I think Muhammad was hearing voices and sincerely believed that he had a divine mandate.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #8 - June 04, 2012, 01:52 AM

    Delusion is a powerful thing. david koresh and his branch-davidian followers went up in flames believing that Mr. Koresh was the Messiah. the mormons walked all the way to utah believing that joseph smith got messages from an angel who taught him about native american tribes that never actually existed. whether or not these people , including muhammad, believed their own nonsense doesn't really change the fact that it's complete bull crap.

  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #9 - June 04, 2012, 02:48 AM

    Let's first assume the accounts of Mohamed are accurate.  It's a whole other discussion if we think otherwise.

    Mohamed probably did believe he had discovered some kind of truth.  Supposedly, he spent time in a cave seeking meaning . He might have been mentally ill, he might have been on drugs, he might have been bitten by a poisonous animal, he might have just sat around pondering and meditating enough tales and contemplating life to make him think he figured it all out...

    I had a uncle who was very brilliant but also mentally ill.  He would come up with all kinds of crazy stories.  It helps if you know a few such mentally ill people... because far too often we think humans have be rational people. 

    Whatever it was, he came up with the idea of god.  Then came politics as he gained power.  No doubt as political problems came up, he went back to his meditative state and grasps onto whatever words his mind comes up with.  That becomes the Koran.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #10 - June 04, 2012, 04:08 AM

    We can only speculate it doesn't really make sense to say he did or didn't do anything if we take Islam to be false. In my opinion he didn't necessarily exist(I mean he might have) but to some extent he was exaggerated into the prophet he is believed to be in Islam.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #11 - June 04, 2012, 05:04 AM

    Quote
    We can only speculate it doesn't really make sense to say he did or didn't do anything if we take Islam to be false. In my opinion he didn't necessarily exist(I mean he might have) but to some extent he was exaggerated into the prophet he is believed to be in Islam.


    This is an interesting point, and as I read more and more "stories" about him I'm starting to also lean towards this conclusion. I mean, I doubt people used to sit by his bedside and collect his sweat as he slept because it smelt like musk - and if blatant lies like that can be told (and believed by many), it only makes me wonder how much of these stories (if any) are actual fact.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #12 - June 04, 2012, 06:24 AM

    This is an interesting point, and as I read more and more "stories" about him I'm starting to also lean towards this conclusion. I mean, I doubt people used to sit by his bedside and collect his sweat as he slept because it smelt like musk - and if blatant lies like that can be told (and believed by many), it only makes me wonder how much of these stories (if any) are actual fact.


    Well those stories are all in the sunnah. I always felt that the exist of Muhammad was obvious and I always pointed to he's burial being in a mecca mosque. Yet now I know that no one is allowed to open up the tomb and examine the remains. I question whether the remains can even be linked to a 7th century Arabian man seeing the test would only put a date on the bones not a name. I mean I don't deny he ever existed but I surely can't believe it's as obvious as I had thought it was before.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #13 - June 04, 2012, 07:17 AM

    Same reason Joseph Smith did....and every other so called prophet who does the same. Same reason Satya Sai Baba spends hours in meditation and fasting. Same reason Vissarion lives in a hut in Siberia.

    Because he had a personality disorder and believed the things he made up.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #14 - June 05, 2012, 11:04 AM

    Well those stories are all in the sunnah. I always felt that the exist of Muhammad was obvious and I always pointed to he's burial being in a mecca mosque. Yet now I know that no one is allowed to open up the tomb and examine the remains. I question whether the remains can even be linked to a 7th century Arabian man seeing the test would only put a date on the bones not a name. I mean I don't deny he ever existed but I surely can't believe it's as obvious as I had thought it was before.


    Don't records exist of non muslims saying that he did exist from around his time?
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #15 - June 05, 2012, 11:36 AM

    Same reason Joseph Smith did....and every other so called prophet who does the same. Same reason Satya Sai Baba spends hours in meditation and fasting. Same reason Vissarion lives in a hut in Siberia.

     Afro

    Because he had a personality disorder and believed the things he made up.

    I don't know about the personality disorder bit.  I think they all did what they felt they needed to do maintain their image, and effectively, career.


    Once Mo went down the path of claiming prophethood (after Khadija convinced him he was chosen by God and that an angel spoke to him), he just stuck with that story and tried to maintain his image and career.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #16 - June 05, 2012, 12:03 PM

    Afro
    I don't know about the personality disorder bit.  I think they all did what they felt they needed to do maintain their image, and effectively, career.


    Once Mo went down the path of claiming prophethood (after Khadija convinced him he was chosen by God and that an angel spoke to him), he just stuck with that story and tried to maintain his image and career.


    He may have tagged himself as Prophet of Allah but no body cared about that tag as long as Khadija was alive(.......(I don't believe there was a character called Muhammad, I think it is all cock and bull story from Caliphs  as described in early Islam)


    When she was alive, that is first 15 years of Islam after he declares himself as prophet of allah  there were hardly any followers of Muhammad. The guy was a vagabond  singing songs in streets and caves along with spme worthless fools.   His real Islam started with after the death of Khadija and in the last 13 years of his life which people call it as Madinan  Islam.

    Quote
    Khadīja bint Khuwaylid or Khadīja al-Kubra (Khadija the great) (circa 555–619 CE) was the first wife of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. She was the daughter of Khuwaylid ibn Asad and Fatimah bint Za'idah and belonged to the clan of Banu Asad. She is important in Islam as Muhammad's first wife, and "and the mother of Islam". Three of her daughters would go on to marry Caliphs: Ruqayyah and Umm Kulthum married Uthman, and Fatimah married Ali.
    Biography

    Khadija's father, Khuwaylid ibn Asad, who died around 585, was a merchant, a successful businessman whose vast wealth and business talents were inherited by Khadija, who successfully managed her father's business interests and preserved the family's fortune. It is said that when the Quraysh's trade caravans gathered to embark upon their lengthy and arduous journey either to Syria during the summer or to Yemen during the winter, Khadija's caravan equalled the caravans of all other traders of the Quraish put together. Fatimah bint Za'idah – Khadija's mother – died around 575, a member of the Banu `Amir ibn Luayy ibn Ghalib tribe and a distant relative of Muhammad.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s5CQVOM5XY

     Cheesy Cheesy  damn  you girl.. you are good..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dbrUGPZ2DY

    hmm let me explore this guy..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #17 - June 05, 2012, 01:07 PM

    Lol that most CEMBers still believe that Mo believed his own stories.

    I would not consider what he was doing was really praying or meditating. More like in-depth planning for his Surahs, analysis of alternative storylines, SWAT analysis (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and constraints), memorization, and preparing himself mentally and physically for his revelations.
     
    He needed to plan out a storyline for his Quran that would be acceptable and appealing to a majority of the people. So he probably went through a number of alternative basic storylines for each Surah and analyzed each one for it's strengths and weaknesses. He needed to think about what kind of reaction he would get from people and how he could best mitigate against those individuals and groups that would react most negatively to a specific revelation. There were probably a few revelations that he did not even like himself but that he knew they were necessary because he understood that be successful he needed to compromise, and we know that he was definitely a man who was prepared to make compromises to insure his success. Once he had decided on the story, he then needed to ponder on a number of alternative wordings, styles of narration, and delivery. It needed to be eloquent but also delivered with a punch. Finally he also needed to memorize it and practice the final delivery. Maybe he had a mirror up in his cave and he would actually act it out a few times in front of the mirror.

    This is what he was actually doing up in that cave. Also we should remember that he knew all too well that he could not write out any actual notes for his storylines. Because if someone were to find his notes then that would be the end. They would know immediately that this was all a well planned out story and not a direct revelation from God. Mo knew that taking notes was far too risky, so he had to keep all his notes up in his head, i.e. he had to memorize his own Koran notes. Hence the whole idea that Mo was illiterate, he was not illiterate it is just that no one saw him writing anything down because he knew that would be too risky.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #18 - June 05, 2012, 01:27 PM


    Lol that most CEMBers still believe that Mo believed his own stories.
    .............................


     if that Mo character that is described in early Islam was really really there., Well., then at the end of his life with all falling in his line,  A Megalomaniac character nut cases  like Muhammad   must have believed that he must be the messenger of Allah.

     Next thing is,  I don't think all of that  Quran we read now  is from him., It is a silly book put together way after his death. May be there are few verses here and there in it such as   chapter -66

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #19 - June 05, 2012, 01:40 PM

    ...........................
     Cheesy Cheesy  damn  you girl.. you are good..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dbrUGPZ2DY

    hmm let me explore this guy..

    So in that tube My good friend mentions a name of a Companion  of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)  and that is "Hakim ibn Hazm "., let us learn a bit of him..

    Quote
    History has recorded that he is the only person who was born inside the Kabah itself.

    Quote
    Together with a group of friends, his mother had gone inside this ancient House of God to inspect it. On that particular day it was open because of a festive occasion. She was pregnant and labor pains suddenly gripped her. She was unable to leave the Kabah. A leather mat was brought to her and she gave birth on it. The child was named Hakim. His father was Hazm who was the son of Khuwaylid. Hakim was therefore the nephew of the Lady Khadijah, the daughter of Khuwaylid, may Allah be pleased with her.

    Hakim grew up in a wealthy and noble family which enjoyed a high status in Makkan society. He was also an intelligent and well-mannered person who was well respected by his people. He was held in such esteem that he was given the responsibility of the rifadah which involved giving assistance to the needy and those who had lost their property during the season of pilgrimage. He took this responsibility seriously and would even help needy pilgrims from his own resources.

    Hakim was a very close friend of the Prophet, peace be on him, before the latter's call to prophethood. Even though he was five years older than the Prophet, he used to spend much time talking to him and enjoying hours of pleasant companionship. Muhammad in his turn felt great affection for Hakim.


    Their relationship was further strengthened when the Prophet married his aunt, Khadijah bint Khuwaylid.

    What is truly amazing is that in spite of the close friendship between Hakim and the Prophet, Hakim did not become a Muslim until the conquest of Makkah, more than twenty years after the start of the Prophet's mission. One would have thought that someone like Hakim whom God had blessed with a sound intellect and who was so well-disposed to the Prophet, would have been among the first to believe in him and follow the guidance he brought. But that was not to be.

    Just as we are astonished at the late acceptance of Islam on the part of Hakim, he himself later in life was also amazed. In fact, as soon as he accepted Islam and tasted the sweetness of iman (faith), he began to feel deep regret for every moment of his life as a mushrik and a denier of God's religion and of His Prophet.

    Quote
    His son once saw him weeping after his acceptance of Islam and asked: "Why are you weeping, my father'?" "Many things cause me to weep, my dear son. The most grievous is the length of time it took for me to become a Muslim. Acceptance of Islam would have given me so many opportunities to do good which I missed even if I were to have spent the earth in gold. My life was spared at the battle of Badr and also at the battle of Uhud. After Uhud. I said to myself. I would not help any Quraysh against Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, and I would not leave Makkah. Then, whenever I felt like accepting Islam I would look at other men among the Quraysh, men of power and maturity who remained firmly attached to the ideas and practices of Jahiliyyah and I would fall in line with them and their neighbors... Oh, how I wish I had not done so. Nothing has destroyed us except the blind following of our forefathers and elders. Why should I not weep, my son?"


    The Prophet himself was puzzled. A man of sagacity and understanding like Hakim ibn Hazm, how could Islam remain "hidden" from him?. For a long time, the Prophet had dearly hoped that he and a group of persons like him would take the initiative and become Muslims. On the night before the liberation of Makkah, he, may God bless him and grant him peace, said to his companions:

    "There are four persons in Makkah whom I consider to be above having any dealing with shirk and I would dearly like them to accept Islam." "Who are they, O Messenger of God?" asked the companions. "Attab ibn Usayd, Jubayr ibn Mutim, Hakim ibn Hazm and Suhayl ibn Amr," replied the Prophet. By the grace of God, they all became Muslims.

    Quote
    When the Prophet, peace be on him, entered Makkah to liberate the city from polytheism and the ways of ignorance and immorality, he ordered his herald to proclaim: "Whoever declares that there is no god but Allah alone, that He has no partner and that Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger, he is safe...

    Whoever sits at the Kabah and lays down his weapons, he is safe. Whoever enters the house of Abu Sufyan, he is safe.

    Whoever enters the house of Hakim ibn Hazm, he is safe..." The house of Abu Sufyan was in the higher part of Makkah and that of Hakim was in the lower part of the city. By proclaiming these houses as places of sanctuary, the Prophet wisely accorded recognition to both Abu Sufyan and Hakim, weakening any thought they might have of resisting and making it easier for them to be more favorably disposed to him and his mission.

    Hakim embraced Islam wholeheartedly. He vowed to himself that he would atone for whatever he had done during his Jahili days and that whatever amounts he had spent in opposing the Prophet, he would spend the same amounts in the cause of Islam.

    He owned the Dar an-Nadwah, an important and historic building in Makkah, where the Quraysh held their conferences during the days of Jahiliyyah. In this building the Quraysh leaders and chieftains would gather to plot against the Prophet.


    Hakim decided to get rid of it and cut himself off from its past associations which were now so painful to him. He sold the building for one hundred thousand dirhams. A Quraysh youth exclaimed to him: "You have sold something of great historical value and pride to the Quraysh, uncle."

    "Come now, my son," replied Hakim. "All vain pride and glory has now gone and all that remains of value is taqwa - consciousness of God. I have only sold the building in order to acquire a house in Paradise. I swear to you that I have given the proceeds from it to be spent in the path of God Almighty."

    Hakim ibn Hazm performed the Hajj after becoming a Muslim. He took with him one hundred fine camels and sacrificed them all in order to achieve nearness to God. In the following Hajj, he stood on Arafat. With him were one hundred slaves. To each he gave a pendant of silver on which was engraved: "Free for the sake of God Almighty from Hakim ibn Hazm." On a third Hajj, he took with him a thousand sheep - yes a thousand sheep and sacrificed them all at Mina to feed the poor Muslims in order to attain nearness to God.

    While Hakim was generous in his spending for the sake of God, he also still liked to have much. After the battle of Hunayn, he asked the Prophet for some of the booty which the Prophet gave. He then asked for more and the Prophet gave him more. Hakim was still a newcomer to Islam and the Prophet was more generous to newcomers so as to reconcile their hearts to Islam. Hakim ended up with a large share of the booty. But the Prophet peace be upon him, told him:

    "O Hakim! This wealth is indeed sweet and attractive. Whoever takes it and is satisfied will be blessed by it and whoever takes out of greed will not be blessed. He would be like someone who eats and is not satisfied. The upper hand is better than the lower hand (it is better to give than to receive)."

    The kind words of advice had a deep and immediate effect on Hakim. He was mortified and said to the Prophet: "O Messenger of God! By Him who has sent you with the truth, I shall not ask anyone after you for anything."

    During the caliphate of Abu Bakr, Hakim was called several times to collect his stipend from the Bayt al-mal but he refused to take any money. He did the same during the caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab whereupon Umar addressed the Muslims: "I testify to you, O Muslims, that I have called Hakim to collect his stipend but he refuses."

    Hakim remained faithful to his word. He did not take anything from anyone until he passed away. From the Prophet, he had learnt the great truth that contentment is riches beyond compare.


    and that story is from here

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #20 - June 05, 2012, 03:59 PM

    Lol that most CEMBers still believe that Mo believed his own stories.

    I would not consider what he was doing was really praying or meditating. More like in-depth planning for his Surahs, analysis of alternative storylines, SWAT analysis (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and constraints), memorization, and preparing himself mentally and physically for his revelations.
     
    He needed to plan out a storyline for his Quran that would be acceptable and appealing to a majority of the people. So he probably went through a number of alternative basic storylines for each Surah and analyzed each one for it's strengths and weaknesses. He needed to think about what kind of reaction he would get from people and how he could best mitigate against those individuals and groups that would react most negatively to a specific revelation. There were probably a few revelations that he did not even like himself but that he knew they were necessary because he understood that be successful he needed to compromise, and we know that he was definitely a man who was prepared to make compromises to insure his success. Once he had decided on the story, he then needed to ponder on a number of alternative wordings, styles of narration, and delivery. It needed to be eloquent but also delivered with a punch. Finally he also needed to memorize it and practice the final delivery. Maybe he had a mirror up in his cave and he would actually act it out a few times in front of the mirror.

    This is what he was actually doing up in that cave. Also we should remember that he knew all too well that he could not write out any actual notes for his storylines. Because if someone were to find his notes then that would be the end. They would know immediately that this was all a well planned out story and not a direct revelation from God. Mo knew that taking notes was far too risky, so he had to keep all his notes up in his head, i.e. he had to memorize his own Koran notes. Hence the whole idea that Mo was illiterate, he was not illiterate it is just that no one saw him writing anything down because he knew that would be too risky.


    How much of the recorded seerah do you actually believe? Do you accept the parts that say he was offered women & wine & wealth in return for stopping his preaching?

    @thread,

    No idea, sorry. :S Bugs me to not know. I didn't particularly like him tbh, then I read the book "Enjoy Your Life" and I kinda fell in love with him. :/ Such an interesting person.

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #21 - June 05, 2012, 04:29 PM

    How much of the recorded seerah do you actually believe? Do you accept the parts that say he was offered women & wine & wealth in return for stopping his preaching?


    Are you referring to Ibn Ishaq? I will have to check what it says exactly. But from what I remember they offered him an advantageous marriage and a position of wealth and respect within the tribe if he would stop dissing their gods, not exactly "women and wine".

    Or are you referring to something else? A hadith perhaps?

    But I am not talking about that kind of compromise, i.e. to get "women and wine". He was able to get plenty of women anyway, and wine if he wanted it. I am more talking about compromises he made within his revelations. Stuff like the Satanic Verses, where he let the Meccans keep their "idol worship" for a while because he knew it would be too unpopular to do away with it completely. Or stuff like slavery, if he really wanted to help slaves then he would have called for an end to slavery completely, but he knew that such a radical proposal would be unpopular with the powerful elites, so he made compromises, he told them to treat the slaves well but did not condemn the practice itself. Or the stuff in the Hadiths where he says that it is OK for the soldiers to rape the captured women. Obviously if Mo had any morals whatsoever then he must have understood that this was not a nice thing, but in practical terms he had to manage an unruly army and so he had to make compromises with his soldiers in order to keep them inline. Mo was great at managing people, he knew exactly how far he could push them with his moral preaching and exactly where to make immoral compromises to keep their support.

  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #22 - June 05, 2012, 05:00 PM

    Sorry Chepea I just realised that i did not actually answer your question.

    Yes, I do believe that the part of the story where the Meccans attempted to negotiate and compromise with Muhammad and Muhammad rejecting their proposals is entirely plausible. In fact I believe that the entire Sira of Ibn Ishaq is plausible and believable (apart from the bit about Mo being able to move trees telepathically).

    So if the question is, why did he make compromises later on in his life when he was powerful, yet apeared to not make compromises early on, at the very moment that he needed allies more than ever. The answer to that is based on the kind of compromises that he would be willing to make.

    We should remember that Muhammad was already wealthy, he lived a comfortable life and did not need more comforts. So compromises intended to "pay him off" would not work because that is not what he craved.

    Muhammad was a social engineer, a dreamer and a utopianist. His goal was to radically transform his society into something better and he also appears to have craved direct political power. Muhammad was a man of action, he had no interest in retiring to a comfortable life of obscurity. If he had accepted the offers of the Meccans at the beginning of the story then he would have died in obscurity and not achieved any of his goals.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #23 - June 05, 2012, 06:16 PM


    I think Ibn Ishaq had the qualities you refer to Tony - even if we hypothetically accept that the broadest outlines of his account of someone called Muhammad's life are as described, the seerah is written over a hundred years after his death. The engineering takes place in this account - the construction of 'Muhammad' is a prodigious feat.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #24 - June 05, 2012, 07:48 PM

    @Tony,

    Hi thanks for your reply! Smiley

    Are you referring to Ibn Ishaq? I will have to check what it says exactly. But from what I remember they offered him an advantageous marriage and a position of wealth and respect within the tribe if he would stop dissing their gods, not exactly "women and wine".

    I'm just parroting off what I learned in Islamic Studies class. I don't have references, sorry.  lipsrsealed

    Quote
    But I am not talking about that kind of compromise, i.e. to get "women and wine". He was able to get plenty of women anyway, and wine if he wanted it. I am more talking about compromises he made within his revelations. Stuff like the Satanic Verses, where he let the Meccans keep their "idol worship" for a while because he knew it would be too unpopular to do away with it completely.

    Oh, I don't believe the Satanic Verses' account is true. Grin I should look more into that though, thanks for reminding me! Smiley

    Quote
    Or stuff like slavery, if he really wanted to help slaves then he would have called for an end to slavery completely, but he knew that such a radical proposal would be unpopular with the powerful elites, so he made compromises, he told them to treat the slaves well but did not condemn the practice itself.

    Oh right. Gotcha now! Smiley

    Quote
    Or the stuff in the Hadiths where he says that it is OK for the soldiers to rape the captured women. Obviously if Mo had any morals whatsoever then he must have understood that this was not a nice thing, but in practical terms he had to manage an unruly army and so he had to make compromises with his soldiers in order to keep them inline. Mo was great at managing people, he knew exactly how far he could push them with his moral preaching and exactly where to make immoral compromises to keep their support.

    Yeah, he was smart.

    Yes, I do believe that the part of the story where the Meccans attempted to negotiate and compromise with Muhammad and Muhammad rejecting their proposals is entirely plausible. In fact I believe that the entire Sira of Ibn Ishaq is plausible and believable (apart from the bit about Mo being able to move trees telepathically).

    So if the question is, why did he make compromises later on in his life when he was powerful, yet apeared to not make compromises early on, at the very moment that he needed allies more than ever. The answer to that is based on the kind of compromises that he would be willing to make.

    We should remember that Muhammad was already wealthy, he lived a comfortable life and did not need more comforts. So compromises intended to "pay him off" would not work because that is not what he craved.

    Muhammad was a social engineer, a dreamer and a utopianist. His goal was to radically transform his society into something better and he also appears to have craved direct political power. Muhammad was a man of action, he had no interest in retiring to a comfortable life of obscurity. If he had accepted the offers of the Meccans at the beginning of the story then he would have died in obscurity and not achieved any of his goals.

    Ohhh right! Interesting theory. I'll have to think about it though, cuz I guess overall you're saying he was aware that his religion was wrong. :/ I dunno if I believe that.

    Thank you!! Smiley

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #25 - June 05, 2012, 10:02 PM

    I think that initially , muhammad was led to believe that whatever experience he had in hiraa cave were from god. If we believe the sirah, I think that Khadijah and waraqah were instrumental in Muhammad thinking he had been visited by an angel. It could have been a dream, a hallucination , or a reaction to some desert plants Muhammad ate while he was in meditation . We may never know. After he was assured he was a prophet, however, I think he just began associating his own his own alter-ego and his inner inspiration to create verses with god. Having been let down by the pagan arab religion as a young man, and having witnessed the "superior" monotheistic religions of Judaism and Christianity in his travels, it is not surprising that Muhammad fisrt thought that his inner inspirations and unexplainable experiences in the cave must have come from that superior, necessary creator-god. I say necessary because while Muhammad could easily dismiss the pagan arab gods as false because they had done nothing for him as an orphan young boy, he still had to believe in a creator god to explain the world around him. His inspirations, he must have thought, must have come from that god. It wasn't until he gained followers and became relevant that he began to deliberately manufacture revelations to suite his needs. I think it is also important to note that communication with the supernatural was not considered an uncommon thing in 7th century Arabia.. There were already the kuhhaan, as well as many other claimants to prophethood. One thing I have been thinking a lot about lately was how much Musaylimah also thought he was a prophet. He is portrayed in the sirah as a sort of parody of Muhammad , an Arab Wierd Al Yankovich if you will, but I think there was more to him than that. Why else would his followers have beenn willing to fight so fiercely in the battle of Yamamah? Whatever the case may be, I believe that both of these men's delusions were enough to make them feel that their own thoughts and words were inspired by God.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #26 - June 05, 2012, 11:00 PM

    One thing I have been thinking a lot about lately was how much Musaylimah also thought he was a prophet. He is portrayed in the sirah as a sort of parody of Muhammad , an Arab Wierd Al Yankovich if you will, but I think there was more to him than that. Why else would his followers have beenn willing to fight so fiercely in the battle of Yamamah? Whatever the case may be, I believe that both of these men's delusions were enough to make them feel that their own thoughts and words were inspired by God.


    Well actually it was not just Musaylimah, there were a whole series of other self-proclaimed prophets, Tulayha, Aswad Ansi, and Sajjah.

    And just because his followers were willing to fight fiercely for him, that really says nothing about his own conviction. People will fight for a leader for a whole number of reasons. History is full of con artists and tricksters, I don't think any of them really believed any of their nonsense. People will do a whole host of strange, dishonest things for power and wealth.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #27 - June 05, 2012, 11:45 PM

    I think Ibn Ishaq had the qualities you refer to Tony - even if we hypothetically accept that the broadest outlines of his account of someone called Muhammad's life are as described, the seerah is written over a hundred years after his death. The engineering takes place in this account - the construction of 'Muhammad' is a prodigious feat.


    The account is far too detailed to be "constructed" entirely by one man. Muhammad is portrayed not as a super hero, but as a regular man with his own imperfections and mistakes. And his enemies are not cardboard cut-out villains but show an astounding capability of defiant wit even in defeat.

    Check out Ibn Ishaq's account of what Hind B. Utbah said to Muhammad when she was captured after the conquest of Mecca. Muhammad started lecturing her on how she must behave now that she was to be a Muslim:

    Quote
    ....the Prophet said to her “And you shall not kill your children.” She said, “I brought them up when they were little and you killed them on the day of Badr when they were grown up, so you are the one to know about them!” Umar laughed immoderately at her reply. He said, "You shall not invent slanderous tales". She said, "By God slander is disgraceful but it is sometimes better to ignore it".

    pg.553 of English translation.

    So if Ibn Ishaq was fabricating a story about this noble super-hero Muhammad and his villainous and thuggish Pagan opponents, why an earth would he make them so witty and defiant in defeat?

    Here is another bizarre tale from Ibn Ishaq. Muhammad had sent Abu Ubayda to sneak into Mecca and assassinate Abu Sufyan. The mission was a total failure, when Abu Ubayda arrived in Mecca with his companion they decided to first circumnavigate the Kaaba a few times and pray, wherein they were recognized by the Meccans and chased out of the city. Abu Ubayda took refuge in a cave where he met a one eyed old man. When he invited the old man to embrace Islam, the old man started singing:

    Quote
    I won't be a Muslim as long as I live,
    nor head to their religion give.

    pg. 674 of English translation.

    When Abu Ubayda heard this he said to himself:

    Quote
    "you will soon know!"  and as soon as the old man was asleep and snoring I got up and killed him in a more horrible way than any man has been killed.  I put the end of my bow in his sound eye, then I bore down on it until I forced it out at the back of his neck.

    pg. 674 of English translation.

    Then when he returned to Medina he told Muhammad what had happened and Muhammad blessed him.

    Now why an earth would Ibn Ishaq invent such a bizarre story of a faithful Muslim killing a crippled old man in such a gruesome way just for refusing to accept Islam? And then have Muhammad "bless him" when he hears the news. It just does not make sense.  Huh?

    Have you heard of the principle of embarrassment when used to evaluate historical sources? It is discussed in this youtube debate:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXf7uP9lhE8

    I know most people on this forum don't like these guys because of their association with right-wing groups, but you have to admit that they know their stuff and they give a good debate here.
  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #28 - June 05, 2012, 11:48 PM

    Quote
    The account is far too detailed to be "constructed" entirely by one man.


    But it is a construction, as any account written a century later would be, just as my writing the life story of a man who lived in the year 1899 would be. Whatever the sources, whatever the traditions that were collated - it was an edit, a construction, a narrative in which details were emphasised, in which a nascent and actual imperial mission required a regulation.

    Ishaq was an author and his feat is a formidable achievment in its own right.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
     Reply #29 - June 05, 2012, 11:57 PM

    Quote
    if Ibn Ishaq was fabricating a story about this noble super-hero Muhammad and his villainous and thuggish Pagan opponents, why an earth would he make them so witty and defiant in defeat?


    The line is that he wasn't depicting them as witty, which is an attribute we read into it. He was depicting them as uppity and answering back to those who were righteous. And it was composed in the full flush of ascendancy and confidence and arrogance.

    Either way the point stands - Ishaq was an author - and he constructed a version of Muhammad - written so long after his death - over a century.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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