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 Topic: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?

 (Read 3237 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     OP - June 15, 2012, 01:12 PM

    Around the world there are Muslims working to restore the Islamic Caliphate that was abolished in 1924. If the Caliphate was recreated, my understanding is that it would then declare war on all neighbouring countries until it eventually takes over the world. I find the concept ludicrous. But there are many Muslims who seriously think they can do it. Does anyone think it can ever happen?
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #1 - June 15, 2012, 01:36 PM


    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #2 - June 15, 2012, 02:45 PM

    Cheesy

    Around the world there are Muslims working to restore the Islamic Caliphate that was abolished in 1924. If the Caliphate was recreated, my understanding is that it would then declare war on all neighbouring countries until it eventually takes over the world. I find the concept ludicrous. But there are many Muslims who seriously think they can do it. Does anyone think it can ever happen?


    No :|

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #3 - June 15, 2012, 03:00 PM

    A lot of people are striving towards a goal. Will it be the tolerant beacon of enlightenment and love and respect of the mythic perfect community of all mankind?

    No.

    It's the same thing with Christians striving to set up the 'Kingdom of God' on earth. They really just want power, and they'll take as much as they can get along the way. Even if the mythical Califate is never achieved. It's probably better if it's never achieved, then people would have to take responsibility. Iran for example, has a large anti religious segment now because they were promised too much.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #4 - June 15, 2012, 03:25 PM

    It's probably better if it's never achieved, then people would have to take responsibility.

    Well, I can't believe that it will ever be recreated. What I'm interested in is whether it is seriously possible at all.
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #5 - June 15, 2012, 04:07 PM

    I think Gary is into something interesting. Since the so called Arab Spring - there have been a rise of Islamism not only in the Middle East, but also in North Africa. There are many forces out there who REALLY want the rebirth of the Islamic Caliphate. From Boko Haram in Nigeria to Islamic Defenders Front in Indonesia. And these groups have never before been so close to power as they are today in for example countries as Egypt (even though SCAF is whipping them).  You also have Erdogan`s more and more religious motivated policy (his views on abortion) in what is supposed to be the only secular nation in the Muslim world.

    I hope this chimera - this ugly kid named the Islamic Caliphate doesn't come back - but we have to look into this more ,ergo its not enough with just briefly looking into it. But at the end it depends on what the so called "moderate" silent majority of Muslims want.

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #6 - June 15, 2012, 06:11 PM

    Sure it could be... but as soon as it became a threat, it would be wiped off the place of the planet by the US or other countries... thank fully.

    In the current trend of history, Islamism is only allowed to thrive so long as Western powers don't see it as much of a threat.
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #7 - June 16, 2012, 09:36 AM

    It won't happen, not in my life time anyway.

    I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

    John Galt.
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #8 - June 16, 2012, 12:46 PM

    It won't happen, not in my life time anyway.


    You only give yourself a few years then?
    If someone said that it's either you or the Islamic Caliphate. I'm rooting for the Islamic Caliphate.
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #9 - June 16, 2012, 02:07 PM

    Has there ever been a caliphate?

    Quote
    Although the Chagatai Khanate and the Golden Horde both established themselves in regions already inhabited by Muslims, their invasions of Central Asia and Russia, respectively, did not have the catastrophic effect on the native Islamic faith that the Mongol invasion of Persia and Iraq had. Although the faith prevailed, and the Mongol invaders were eventually converted to Islam, the Mongol destruction of the Islamic heartland marked a major change of direction for the region. By destroying the Islamic empires that existed before they came, the Mongols instigated a new era for the Islamic world, in which most of the region's power would fall to three great empires - the Ottoman, the Safavid, and the Mughal - as we will see in Chapter 5.

    The Mongols began their push into Central Asia and Persia in the early 13th century under Genghis Khan. The cities of Bukhara and Samarkand, later to become part of the Chagatai Khanate, fell to Genghis Khan's armies in 1220. From there it was not difficult to raid Persia, and by 1221 the Persian cities of Merv, Nishapur, and Balkh had fallen. In the inevitable pillaging that followed Mongol attacks, the invaders decimated the population of these regions, sparing only the artisans they deemed useful. The Mongols also uprooted many Muslim graves in their wake, including that of Harun al-Rashid, the 8th century Abbasid caliph who was featured in The Thousand and One Nights fables.

    The Muslims inflicted their first defeat on the Mongols in 1221 at the Battle of Parwan, in present-day Afghanistan, under the leadership of Jalal al-Din, son of a Central Asian Muslim ruler. The victory provided a temporary morale boost for the Muslim army, but the Mongols soon regrouped and devastated Jalal's troops later that year. After that initial setback, the Mongols swept through Central Asia into Persia and Iraq. The Persian city of Isfahan fell in 1237, and the Mongols gradually moved closer to Baghdad, the centre of the Abbasid caliphate.

    The decision to attack the Abbasid caliphate was made at the same time as the election of the Great Khan Mongke in 1251. The Chagatai Khanate and the Golden Horde were already firmly established empires in the Islamic world, and the Great Khan disliked the fact that his new Muslim subjects worshipped a man - the caliph - that they deemed to be in a higher position than the Great Khan. Mongke decided to send his brother, Hulegu, into Iraq at the head of the invading Mongol army, with the goal of sacking Baghdad and destroying the Abbasid caliphate there. Hulegu set out in 1253, and en route he encountered the Muslim group known as the Assassins, an Ismaili sect that practised an extreme version of Shi'ism. The Assassins were based in Alamut, in northwestern Persia, which Hulegu reached in 1255. The Mongols easily destroyed the small Assassins force, and the remaining members of the group fled south to the Sindh region of present-day Pakistan, where they lived as an underground sect for centuries. After this victory, the Mongols had an open path into Baghdad. Great Khan Mongke had instructed Hulegu to attack the Abbasid caliphate only if it refused to surrender to the Mongols. The Abbasids, led by the caliph, Musta'sim, indeed refused to surrender, making a battle inevitable.

    Before the fighting even began, the Abbasids were at a disadvantage. While they theoretically had a large enough army to compete with the Mongols, their troops had been neglected by the caliphate and were not prepared for battle at the time of the Mongol invasion. Another problem for the Abbasids was the centuries-old rift between the Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims. The caliphate was Sunni, as were most of its subjects, but there was a Shi'ite minority under Abbasid control who welcomed the Mongol invaders as a potential means of bringing down the Sunni caliph. Many Shi'ites in Iraq joined the Mongol forces for that reason. Additionally, the caliph's vizier, or second-in-command, was himself Shi'ite, and it has been suggested that he might have also co-operated with the Mongols in attacking the caliphate. The Mongols also had the support of non-Muslims under Abbasid control. Many Christians in the region saw the Mongols as saviours, hoping that by decimating Islam's adherents, the faith itself would also be destroyed. Indeed, in return for Christian support, the Mongols - some of whom were Nestorian Christian themselves - spared Christian churches and communities from their pillaging.

    With all these factors working against the Abbasids, the fall of Baghdad and the destruction of the caliphate in 1258 came rather quickly. The caliph himself, Musta'sim, was captured and killed, and the 500-year-old Abbasid dynasty came to an abrupt and violent end. With Iraq and Persia thus under Mongol control, Hulegu continued west, towards Syria and Egypt. Ayyubid descendants of Saladin held power in Syria at this time, while the European Crusaders had a tenuous hold on the Syrian coast. Egypt, meanwhile, was still recovering from the coup that had ousted the Ayyubids and brought the Mamluks, a class of Turkish slave soldiers, to power. As professional soldiers, the Mamluks would present the Mongols with their only serious and continuous challenge. Syria, however, was easily defeated, since the Ayyubids and Crusaders refused to join forces in defending their territory. The major cities of Aleppo and Damascus fell within a month of each other in 1260, but an immediate invasion of Egypt was halted by the death of the Great Khan Mongke in Mongolia....


    http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/mongols/ilkhanate.html

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #10 - June 16, 2012, 06:27 PM



    Caliphate is just a fancy word for political leader of an Islamic State as far as I'm concerned.  From a historical practice, I think we already have a caliphate in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
    Like all political systems, as it gets bigger, it gets fractured and it grows and falls as situations dictate.

  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #11 - June 16, 2012, 06:50 PM

    Caliphate is just a fancy word for political leader of an Islamic State as far as I'm concerned.  From a historical practice, I think we already have a caliphate in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

    Yet the Islamists denounce it for being a monarachy.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #12 - June 16, 2012, 11:02 PM

    FUCK NO.

    I hope not.

    Is it feasible? I don't know, I don't think so, think the different groups are way to fragmented to be able to pull it off. And I fucking hope they never manage it.

  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #13 - June 17, 2012, 07:07 AM

    It is fascinating the devil and deep blue sea comments we are getting from Egypt - Islamist Muslim Brotherhood supported by uneducated rural people or military.

    It is as if a mature democracy and Islam do not really go together.  As if the military and the mullahs coevolve together.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #14 - June 18, 2012, 12:34 AM

    It is fascinating the devil and deep blue sea comments we are getting from Egypt - Islamist Muslim Brotherhood supported by uneducated rural people or military.

    It is as if a mature democracy and Islam do not really go together.  As if the military and the mullahs coevolve together.


     A mature democracy will not go with any religion forget Islam, but religious rogues can use democracy to get on to power and subvert democratic way of life......

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #15 - June 20, 2012, 06:43 AM

    Of course....because they will base it on Islam.
    And as we all know Islam is very clear so that all muslims agree on everything and it's totally a practical model for building modern states....I'm sure it would go swimmingly.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #16 - June 20, 2012, 07:34 AM

    Absolute certainty about anything stymies growth and could lead to disaster. Democracy without dissent is a parody. 'Pure' Islam is inevitably caught in a time warp and 'liberal Islam is considered 'heretic'  Cheesy



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #17 - June 20, 2012, 07:49 AM

    .................. Democracy without dissent is a parody................



    Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time
    .............WINSTON CHURCHILL,


    Self-criticism is the secret weapon of democracy, and candor and confession are good for the public sou
    l  .................  Adlai E. Stevenson Jr.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #18 - June 20, 2012, 11:55 PM

    Who knows, its possible. I say that because I think Islamism will eventually start to overtake many Middle Eastern states. Hamza Tzortzis and those crazy Hizbi's think it is lol

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #19 - June 20, 2012, 11:58 PM


    Setting up a false binary between democracy and Islamism is false. That is because Islam teaches democracy, and so any truly democratic society will naturally evolve towards Islam.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #20 - June 21, 2012, 12:01 AM

    Who knows, its possible. I say that because I think Islamism will eventually start to overtake many Middle Eastern states. Hamza Tzortzis and those crazy Hizbi's think it is lol

    hey cc good to see you again.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Can the Islamic Caliphate ever be recreated?
     Reply #21 - June 21, 2012, 12:04 AM

    hey cc good to see you again.


    You too Deusvult.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
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