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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi..what's your problem?

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  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #210 - July 02, 2012, 05:29 PM

    Except, nobody was 'too plain'. His ideas, presumptions and assertions were refuted with clarity - ideas that were rooted in the notion that the mere existence of this forum, and the ideas discussed in it, are an affront.



    Maybe it would have never worked with him, could we have not been a little more sensitive to his feels? It just seemed like everyone was jumping on his back. Individually it might not seem nothing, but when there are like 5/6 members jumping on your back it can have a cumulative effect, a snow ball effect, which kind of derails any meaningful discussion you might have otherwise got out of him. Maybe even if we were all nice time him he still may have been belligerent, but I'd like to give a person the benefit of the doubt If the IPs comes clean.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #211 - July 02, 2012, 05:40 PM

    ok guys, I just read some of the previous posts (thanks to some of the more open-minded members). We can continue this discussion if you PROMISE not to disrespect my religion again.


    Firstly, I think you're starting to push it, secondly that is a silly and pretty stupid request, as you'll find any valid criticism of your religion as 'disrespectful' so lets move away from such comments. If you find someone is unnecessarily being offensive to you, then you can put them on ignore, and ignore their posts.

    Quote
    That's all I asked for since I joined this forum.

    It was a request, yes not an obligation, you have to understand requests can be turned down, its not an obligation that we have to oblige your request.
    Quote
    Unless the majority feel that it is pointless discussing this because I don't have a valid argument, in which case we can close this thread and move on (democracy is the key here).


    I thought it was a little early I felt the discussion could go on, however the choice lays with you, if you're going to be overly sensitive then there's not much we can do. 
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #212 - July 02, 2012, 05:42 PM

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Fuck that. You do not get to tell me what I should and should not respect. If you want respect, then earn it like everyone else has to. If you're expecting a free pass, you're gonna be disappointed.


    Chill, he was requesting not demanding, he asked us to make a promise and we can choose to decline his request. Come on just give it enough rope to hang itself man, if you think its going in that direction, lets give him some room to see where this leads.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #213 - July 02, 2012, 05:47 PM

    Suprestrike, why do you believe Islam to be true?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #214 - July 02, 2012, 05:53 PM

    .
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #215 - July 02, 2012, 06:13 PM

    Is this going to be another marathon thread ? popcorn popcorn



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #216 - July 02, 2012, 06:14 PM

    Suprestrike, why do you believe Islam to be true?


    That's a long topic..and it's actually outside the scope of this thread. To give you a short answer, I think it is the most logical religion  - all roads lead to Islam if you actually have an open mind and are willing to do some self-directed research.

    The real questions that we are dealing with here are:

    1. Why did people who were muslims, leave Islam?
    2. It is their choice to hold whatever beliefs they feel they are most comfortable with, however, why do some of these people insist on attacking and offending members of their former faith (i.e. Islam)?
    3. Should there be a law on maintaining respect, patience and humility to other people's faiths? (I feel yes)

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that members of this forum are supposed to be ultra-liberal aren't they? So why do I get all this antagonism when I raise my views, just because they are different to yours?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #217 - July 02, 2012, 06:17 PM

    That's a long topic..and it's actually outside the scope of this thread. To give you a short answer, I think it is the most logical religion  - all roads lead to Islam if you actually have an open mind and are willing to do some self-directed research.

    The real questions that we are dealing with here are:

    1. Why did people who were muslims, leave Islam?
    2. It is their choice to hold whatever beliefs they feel they are most comfortable with, however, why do some of these people insist on attacking and offending members of their former faith (i.e. Islam)?
    3. Should there be a law on maintaining respect, patience and humility to other people's faiths? (I feel yes)

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that members of this forum are supposed to be ultra-liberal aren't they? So why do I get all this antagonism when I raise my views, just because they are different to yours?

    Hi Superstrike. I haven't really been reading this thread (I'm sorry), but I know what you mean on (3) about respect for other faiths. I brought that up on this forum once (when I was a Muslim), and a very smart forum member mentioned to me the complete lack of respect Abraham showed towards the idols of his town when he smashed them to bits.

    So I'd like to ask: How would you suggest reconciling respect for other people's faiths with Abraham's actions?

    Thanks Smiley And welcome to CEMB!!!

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #218 - July 02, 2012, 06:20 PM

    We can continue this discussion if you PROMISE not to disrespect my religion again.


    There won't be any such promise.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #219 - July 02, 2012, 06:22 PM

    3. Should there be a law on maintaining respect, patience and humility to other people's faiths? (I feel yes)

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that members of this forum are supposed to be ultra-liberal aren't they? So why do I get all this antagonism when I raise my views, just because they are different to yours?


    People here are liberal - that is why they don't believe there should be "law on maintaining respect, patience and humility to other people's faiths"

    That is an illiberal worldview.

    Unless people are free to dissent from religions and criticise them and even disrespect them, there is NO religious freedom.

    For example, if there was a law punishing disrespect, impatience and arrogance towards other faiths, it would more or less become illegal to preach Islam and carry out any kind of dawah, wouldn't it?

    Remember that.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #220 - July 02, 2012, 06:26 PM

    Then non-Muslims started asking him questions about his faith in order to make him type out something intolerant so he would get defensive about his faith and they could start bashing him.


    Oh come on now, really?

    This sounds awfully conspiratorial rather than something based on the evidence of member's behavior. You really think that when we're trying to learn about a new member, we're just looking for ammo to score some righteous indignation points?  Grin

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #221 - July 02, 2012, 06:27 PM

    People here are liberal - that is why they don't believe there should be "law on maintaining respect, patience and humility to other people's faiths"

    That is an illiberal worldview.

    Unless people are free to dissent from religions and criticise them and even disrespect them, there is NO religious freedom.

    For example, if there was a law punishing disrespect, impatience and arrogance towards other faiths, it would more or less become illegal to preach Islam and carry out any kind of dawah, wouldn't it?

    Remember that.





    I disagree. I don't think attacking a religion and ridiculing a faith is the way to go. As I've mentioned before, there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #222 - July 02, 2012, 06:31 PM

    That's a long topic..and it's actually outside the scope of this thread. To give you a short answer, I think it is the most logical religion  - all roads lead to Islam if you actually have an open mind and are willing to do some self-directed research.


    Well I hope we can discuss that, since if you know something which I don't know I'd like to know, I'm a very logical person myself, so of course I don't want to live a lie, so if Islam can be logically proven to be true, I'd be the first person to reconvert to Islam on this forum.

    You say all roads lead to Islam, so do you think a community which had never heard of Islam lets say lived somewhere very remote would naturally have the disposition to follow Islam? Like believing in a god?  

    Quote
    The real questions that we are dealing with here are:

    1. Why did people who were muslims, leave Islam?


    For me personally, Islam carried internal and external contradictions and logical inconsistencies. The Qu'ran a number of scientific errors, and a deity which is described be Islam, with the same attributes cannot logically exist, it is impossible, a logical paradox.  

    Quote
    2. It is their choice to hold whatever beliefs they feel they are most comfortable with, however, why do some of these people insist on attacking and offending members of their former faith (i.e. Islam)?


    What you see as an attack is completely subjective to you. Some Muslims would consider simply not believing in Islam as an attack on Islam. So when you get into subjects of feels these are very subjective concepts.  

    Quote
    3. Should there be a law on maintaining respect, patience and humility to other people's faiths? (I feel yes)


    We already have those laws, under the humans rights charter, you as a Muslim are free to preach and practice Islam, I as a Muslim are free to question Islam, there has to be a balance for everyone, you have to remember one thing. Rights are for individuals not for groups/mobs, individuals need protection from groups/mobs, not the other-way around. You as an individual have the same rights as me!
    Quote
    Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that members of this forum are supposed to be ultra-liberal aren't they?


    No, I'm a conservative liberal.

    Quote
    So why do I get all this antagonism when I raise my views, just because they are different to yours?


    They feel you're antagonizing them. You're going back into the realm of subjective feelings.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #223 - July 02, 2012, 06:32 PM

    ok guys, I just read some of the previous posts (thanks to some of the more open-minded members). We can continue this discussion if you PROMISE not to disrespect my religion again. That's all I asked for since I joined this forum. Unless the majority feel that it is pointless discussing this because I don't have a valid argument, in which case we can close this thread and move on (democracy is the key here).


    Democracy has nothing to do with it mate.

    The problem is that you're prepared to put such nebulous boundaries on the discussion as "don't disrespect Islam". The fact of the matter is there's no way for us to tell what kind of criticism of Islam we offer to you will be seen as disrespectful, so it serves no useful purpose to try to remain in those boundaries.

    Is stating factual, yet abhorrent things about Islamic history and dogma offensive? Honestly, I don't really care.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #224 - July 02, 2012, 06:35 PM

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that members of this forum are supposed to be ultra-liberal aren't they? So why do I get all this antagonism when I raise my views, just because they are different to yours?


    Any antagonism I bear you is due to your apparent lack of willingness to follow the simplest instructions. To whit:

    You have some cheek calling anyone else lazy. In a forum with a fully working search function, you complain about not finding answers? The simplest search you could make - using the term 'lie' - brings up several threads that you may find useful.


    As it happens, I don't think highly of the way you expect to be able to put forth your views and paint the exposition of opposing views as somehow hostile. But then, you aren't the first person to adopt such tactics, and you won't be the last.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #225 - July 02, 2012, 06:36 PM

    Democracy has nothing to do with it mate.

    The problem is that you're prepared to put such nebulous boundaries on the discussion as "don't disrespect Islam". The fact of the matter is there's no way for us to tell what kind of criticism of Islam we offer to you will be seen as disrespectful, so it serves no useful purpose to try to remain in those boundaries.

    Is stating factual, yet abhorrent things about Islamic history and dogma offensive? Honestly, I don't really care.


    As an ex-muslim, you know very well what boundaries to cross if you want to offend a muslim. I don't really think I have to spell it out to any of you, do you?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #226 - July 02, 2012, 06:36 PM

    I disagree. I don't think attacking a religion and ridiculing a faith is the way to go. As I've mentioned before, there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism.


    What asbie just said ^^^^

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #227 - July 02, 2012, 06:40 PM

    As an ex-muslim, you know very well what boundaries to cross if you want to offend a muslim. I don't really think I have to spell it out to any of you, do you?


    Would you like to make a specific list of things that will offend you and that others should be forbidden to say about Islam? Let us know.

    Also, my earlier point - how would Islam function were there to be boundaries placed on the criticism of other faiths? Although I suspect you haven't thought of that, the old one way street thing.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #228 - July 02, 2012, 06:47 PM

    The real questions that we are dealing with here are:

    1. Why did people who were muslims, leave Islam?
    2. It is their choice to hold whatever beliefs they feel they are most comfortable with, however, why do some of these people insist on attacking and offending members of their former faith (i.e. Islam)?
    3. Should there be a law on maintaining respect, patience and humility to other people's faiths? (I feel yes)


    1. A whole host of reasons. You can find answers to this question by reading through some of the other introduction threads in this forum. You'll also find some of the more polished and detailed stories of people leaving Islam on CEMB's wiki: http://councilofexmuslims.com/wiki/en/Main_Page

    2. Think about this one for a second. Isn't it possible that the influence of Islam and Muslims has had a negative impact on their lives? Why wouldn't someone speak out against something that has affected their life like that? What reason do you have for wanting to stifle such criticism?

    3. If so, it should only be very, very narrow in scope, so as not to curtail free speech rights. Maybe only living persons should be protected under it, from religion based slander and hate crimes. Protecting the honor of Muhammad, a man who died 1400 years ago should not be included in it, obviously.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #229 - July 02, 2012, 06:47 PM

    Would you like to make a specific list of things that will offend you and that others should be forbidden to say about Islam? Let us know.

    Also, my earlier point - how would Islam function were there to be boundaries placed on the criticism of other faiths? Although I suspect you haven't thought of that, the old one way street thing.



    So it seems that I do have to spell it out to you. Fine. The following things should not be said to a muslim / about Islam:

    1. saying/ drawing any bad things about any of the Prophets (peace be upon them all)
    2. disrespecting God Almighty
    3. saying terrible things about the Holy Qu'ran

    All you have to do is maintain a level of tolerance and manners and you will be fine. It really isn't that hard to do, I'm surprised that I have been put in a position to teach a group of adults some basic etiquette skills.

    To answer your second point, i already mentioned that criticism is fine (even to criticise islam). As muslims, we are to respect all faiths and be tolerant and kind to everyone.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #230 - July 02, 2012, 06:51 PM

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that members of this forum are supposed to be ultra-liberal aren't they? So why do I get all this antagonism when I raise my views, just because they are different to yours?


    Because we value the ability of people to speak freely and openly about what's on their minds. I doubt you'd get such a leash on a Muslim forum if you antagonize so many members.  Afro

    No one will stop you from expressing your views, unless you break the forum rules in some way: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?page=12

    In return we'd like it if you'd offer us the same amount of courtesy and flexibility in expressing our criticisms of Islam.  Smiley

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #231 - July 02, 2012, 06:57 PM

    So it seems that I do have to spell it out to you. Fine. The following things should not be said to a muslim / about Islam:

    1. saying/ drawing any bad things about any of the Prophets (peace be upon them all)
    2. disrespecting God Almighty
    3. saying terrible things about the Holy Qu'ran

    Here's some spelling out that you appear to have missed: there is no reason why your superstitions should be ours.

    You're in no position to demand respect for prophets, some invisible being whose existence you cannot hope to prove, or for a dubious work of poetry disguising itself as wisdom for the ages. People command respect by what they do, and not because of what they believe.

    In demanding something unearned, by the way, you're showing a poor example. What respect do you suppose that entitles you to?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #232 - July 02, 2012, 07:03 PM

    So it seems that I do have to spell it out to you. Fine. The following things should not be said to a muslim / about Islam:

    1. saying/ drawing any bad things about any of the Prophets (peace be upon them all)
    2. disrespecting God Almighty
    3. saying terrible things about the Holy Qu'ran

    All you have to do is maintain a level of tolerance and manners and you will be fine. It really isn't that hard to do, I'm surprised that I have been put in a position to teach a group of adults some basic etiquette skills.

    To answer your second point, i already mentioned that criticism is fine (even to criticise islam). As muslims, we are to respect all faiths and be tolerant and kind to everyone.


    You're having a laugh right? I have no reason to tolerate factually inaccurate 7th century gibberish, and hocus pocus nonsense.

    I want to criticize Islam, Allah says in the Qu'ran that the earth was created before the stars when scientific inquiry tells us that stars came before planets? Can you explain why do you follow such a scientifically inaccurate book? and then you also claim Islam is the most logical faith?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #233 - July 02, 2012, 07:06 PM

    You're not terribly logical, for a person who claims to follow the most logical faith. You haven't even a clue about all the other faith, do you think we are idiots or something, do you think we don't see right through your obscurantism?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #234 - July 02, 2012, 07:07 PM

    As an ex-muslim, you know very well what boundaries to cross if you want to offend a muslim. I don't really think I have to spell it out to any of you, do you?


    Yeah mmkay, but I said I don't really care about learning these boundaries because they vary by individual and in effect serve only to censor criticism of Islam. Sorry, you're not gonna get off that easily here. Be prepared to engage fully in a discussion that will be unhindered by the observance of Islamic taboos, otherwise you won't get much mileage here.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #235 - July 02, 2012, 07:11 PM

    So it seems that I do have to spell it out to you. Fine. The following things should not be said to a muslim / about Islam:

    1. saying/ drawing any bad things about any of the Prophets (peace be upon them all)
    2. disrespecting God Almighty
    3. saying terrible things about the Holy Qu'ran

    All you have to do is maintain a level of tolerance and manners and you will be fine. It really isn't that hard to do, I'm surprised that I have been put in a position to teach a group of adults some basic etiquette skills.


    Thanks.

    Which country do you live in? I'm presuming you live in the west, either the UK or the USA or Canada?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #236 - July 02, 2012, 07:12 PM

    You're not terribly logical, for a person who claims to follow the most logical faith. You haven't even a clue about all the other faith, do you think we are idiots or something, do you think we don't see right through your obscurantism?


    Too much plain talking Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #237 - July 02, 2012, 07:12 PM

    Quote
    As muslims, we are to respect all faiths and be tolerant and kind to everyone.


    Then why do you have that obsessive need to convert people ? Aren't you implying that your faith is 'superior' to theirs? Isn't this seeking homogeneity of views of 'the ultimate truth ' ? Where's is tolerance in all this? Genuine tolerance and respect is all about being able to live with all kinds of people,including those with whom you don't agree !
    If you lived strictly by what the Quran says it would be very difficult if not impossible NOT to be an exclusivist /supremacist.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #238 - July 02, 2012, 07:15 PM

    So it seems that I do have to spell it out to you. Fine. The following things should not be said to a muslim / about Islam:

    1. saying/ drawing any bad things about any of the Prophets (peace be upon them all)
    2. disrespecting God Almighty
    3. saying terrible things about the Holy Qu'ran

    All you have to do is maintain a level of tolerance and manners and you will be fine. It really isn't that hard to do, I'm surprised that I have been put in a position to teach a group of adults some basic etiquette skills.

    To answer your second point, i already mentioned that criticism is fine (even to criticise islam). As muslims, we are to respect all faiths and be tolerant and kind to everyone.


    Ha!

    As for the bolded part, i call that condenscension.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #239 - July 02, 2012, 07:19 PM

    superstrike what are you hoping to achieve here at CEMB, what is your ultimate goal?

    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

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