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 Topic: Hi..what's your problem?

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  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #240 - July 02, 2012, 07:19 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 06:47 PM
    So it seems that I do have to spell it out to you. Fine. The following things should not be said to a muslim / about Islam:

    1. saying/ drawing any bad things about any of the Prophets (peace be upon them all)
    2. disrespecting God Almighty
    3. saying terrible things about the Holy Qu'ran


    1. What if they were bad (or in many cases fictitious) people?
    2. What if he/she/it doesn't exist?
    3. What if this document is not holy, and indeed a man-made fabrication.

    See, we're approaching the discussion with ultimately fundamentally different basal assumptions than you. Therefore to have any sort of meaningful discourse, it simply won't do to restrict discussion in such a broad and all-encompassing manner, only based on the offense it may cause to a particular individual. To have this debate, members have to be prepared to open themselves up, willing to be offended in order to grow one's mind with the knowledge of such matters.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #241 - July 02, 2012, 07:21 PM
    Quote from: billy on July 02, 2012, 07:11 PM
    Thanks.

    Which country do you live in? I'm presuming you live in the west, either the UK or the USA or Canada?




    UK. How did you know? Maybe you're smarter than the average bear!
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #242 - July 02, 2012, 07:21 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 06:47 PM
    All you have to do is maintain a level of tolerance and manners and you will be fine. It really isn't that hard to do, I'm surprised that I have been put in a position to teach a group of adults some basic etiquette skills.

    To answer your second point, i already mentioned that criticism is fine (even to criticise islam). As muslims, we are to respect all faiths and be tolerant and kind to everyone.


    Haha, this has nothing to do with etiquette and everything to do with trying to censor the debate on Islam and Islam related topics and figures.  Cheesy
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #243 - July 02, 2012, 07:26 PM
    Quote from: asbie on July 02, 2012, 07:19 PM
    1. What if they were bad (or in many cases fictitious) people?
    2. What if he/she/it doesn't exist?
    3. What if this document is not holy, and indeed a man-made fabrication.

    See, we're approaching the discussion with ultimately fundamentally different basal assumptions than you. Therefore to have any sort of meaningful discourse, it simply won't do to restrict discussion in such a broad and all-encompassing manner, only based on the offense it may cause to a particular individual. To have this debate, members have to be prepared to open themselves up, willing to be offended in order to grow one's mind with the knowledge of such matters.


    I'm sorry but i disagree with this approach.
    Quote from: Maya on July 02, 2012, 07:19 PM
    superstrike what are you hoping to achieve here at CEMB, what is your ultimate goal?


    Well I was hoping to ascertain the root of all this negativity towards Islam. Secondly, I wanted to address it, and maybe show you all that most muslims are kind and good natured, as this is what Islam promotes. I'm not seeking to bring people back to Islam, that is outside my remit. I also wanted to make people on here see things from a muslim's perspective, and to show you that, whilst you may not know it, you can actually hurt a lot of people's feelings by some of your distasteful comments. Am I right in thinking that nobody here is intentionally trying to hurt anyone?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #244 - July 02, 2012, 07:32 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 07:26 PM
    I'm sorry but i disagree with this approach.


    That's okay. To you your approach and to me mine. You'll see which one is more successful in engendering critical discourse.  Cheesy
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #245 - July 02, 2012, 07:33 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 07:21 PM
    UK. How did you know? Maybe you're smarter than the average bear!


    Did you grow up in the UK or are you an immigrant?

    I'm asking because I'm trying to ascertain if you grew up in a secular society like the UK.

    In secular societies we are free to criticise religion - it is central to our culture and society.

    To try to circumscribe that would be to try and subvert our most basic freedoms and culture and identity.

    If you are an immigrant from a country in which there isn't a tradition of secularism you may not have adjusted to this ethos yet.

    If you are British born and bred, it suggests that insularity and ignorance about what makes our secular society is deeply entrenched with you.

    In which case, you should treat this as an education.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #246 - July 02, 2012, 07:34 PM
    Quote from: asbie on July 02, 2012, 07:21 PM
    Haha, this has nothing to do with etiquette and everything to do with trying to censor the debate on Islam and Islam related topics and figures.


    100% correctomundo  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #247 - July 02, 2012, 07:35 PM
    We know about Islam, we're just not going to fooled by your scholar's propaganda any longer.

    We know most Muslims are kind and good natured. We were Muslims once, you know? We are related to them and we interact with them everyday.

    Islam also promotes some down right evil, vile, disgusting and backward things.

    If your feelings are hurt, then that's your problem. Go onto any Islam messageboards, and you will see plenty of Muslims attacking  non-Muslims even though they live comfortably among them. Hypocrites.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #248 - July 02, 2012, 07:38 PM
    Quote from: billy on July 02, 2012, 07:33 PM
    Did you grow up in the UK or are you an immigrant?

    I'm asking because I'm trying to ascertain if you grew up in a secular society like the UK.

    In secular societies we are free to criticise religion - it is central to our culture and society.

    To try to circumscribe that would be to try and subvert our most basic freedoms and culture and identity.

    If you are an immigrant from a country in which there isn't a tradition of secularism you may not have adjusted to this ethos yet.

    If you are British born and bred, it suggests that insularity and ignorance about what makes our secular society is deeply entrenched with you.

    In which case, you should treat this as an education.




    Well I wasn't born in the UK but i've been here since I was a child so grew up in UK. On the whole most people were not prejudice to me because of my religion. I should think that there would also be a few members of this site who are immigrants too, so I don't think that this is a major factor. It is all about faith, attitude, upbringing, restraint and overall character. The bottom line is, i'm a tolerant person, it seems many of you are not quite as tolerant.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #249 - July 02, 2012, 07:39 PM
    Quote from: The Demba on July 02, 2012, 07:35 PM
    We know about Islam, we're just not going to fooled by your scholar's propaganda any longer.

    We know most Muslims are kind and good natured. We were Muslims once, you know? We are related to them and we interact with them everyday.

    Islam also promotes some down right evil, vile, disgusting and backward things.

    If your feelings are hurt, then that's your problem. Go onto any Islam messageboards, and you will see plenty of Muslims attacking  non-Muslims even though they live comfortably among them. Hypocrites.




    well I don't.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #250 - July 02, 2012, 07:42 PM
    Quote
    The bottom line is, i'm a tolerant person


    Except when it comes to people criticising Islam  Afro

    Seriously, its a great moment for those who wish to circumscribe scrutiny of religion to understand that this is never, ever going to happen in our liberal secular society.

    Your best option is to accept that, and not grow resentful at having your religion treated just as every other religion is treated.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #251 - July 02, 2012, 07:45 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 07:39 PM
    well I don't.


    Tough.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #252 - July 02, 2012, 07:46 PM
    Quote from: The Demba on July 02, 2012, 07:35 PM
    We know about Islam, we're just not going to fooled by your scholar's propaganda any longer.

    We know most Muslims are kind and good natured. We were Muslims once, you know? We are related to them and we interact with them everyday.

    Islam also promotes some down right evil, vile, disgusting and backward things.

    If your feelings are hurt, then that's your problem. Go onto any Islam messageboards, and you will see plenty of Muslims attacking  non-Muslims even though they live comfortably among them. Hypocrites.




     Afro

    Quote from: billy on July 02, 2012, 07:42 PM


    Your best option is to accept that, and not grow resentful at having your religion treated just as every other religion is treated.




     Afro



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #253 - July 02, 2012, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: billy on July 02, 2012, 07:42 PM
    Except when it comes to people criticising Islam  Afro

    Seriously, its a great moment for those who wish to circumscribe scrutiny of religion to understand that this is never, ever going to happen in our liberal secular society.

    Your best option is to accept that, and not grow resentful at having your religion treated just as every other religion is treated.





    Well I've said before about 10 times - there's nothing wrong with criticism. I disagree with distasteful remarks being made about all religions, not only Islam. Having a debate where people are having a civilised discussion and questioning each other's views is perfectly fine. Going round burning holy books is not.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #254 - July 02, 2012, 07:50 PM
    To be honest, I don't think you give a damn about all religions.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #255 - July 02, 2012, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 07:47 PM
    Well I've said before about 10 times - there's nothing wrong with criticism. I disagree with distasteful remarks being made about all religions, not only Islam. Having a debate where people are having a civilised discussion and questioning each other's views is perfectly fine. Going round burning holy books is not.


    Hypocrucifier asked you quite a penetrating question earlier in the thread which you didn't reply to. Would you like to address it?
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #256 - July 02, 2012, 07:55 PM
    Quote from: billy on July 02, 2012, 07:52 PM
    Hypocrucifier asked you quite a penetrating question earlier in the thread which you didn't reply to. Would you like to address it?


    Which question?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #257 - July 02, 2012, 07:55 PM
    Am still waiting on replies to my questions...
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #258 - July 02, 2012, 07:59 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on July 02, 2012, 07:55 PM
    Am still waiting on replies to my questions...


    Well I didn't want to get into a theological discussion here. That is outside the scope of this thread. The Qu'ran is not a book of science, however, the science it does contain is accurate and in some cases, miraculous. If you don't see that or refuse to believe that, then that is your choice. It's the same for me feeling that evolution as described by mainstream science is not accurate.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #259 - July 02, 2012, 08:01 PM
    @ The Demba:

    He can't give a damn about all religions, it is impossible, first of all Islam claims to be superior to other religions and regards other religions as derailed from the right path or true way, I mean Islam itself calls the nonbelievers NOT WORTHY, LOSERS and many other derogatory terms.

    If u value or care about other religions which ur own religions considers not TRUE ones then u value and respect NOT TRUTH
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #260 - July 02, 2012, 08:02 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 07:59 PM
    Well I didn't want to get into a theological discussion here. That is outside the scope of this thread. The Qu'ran is not a book of science, however, the science it does contain is accurate and in some cases, miraculous. If you don't see that or refuse to believe that, then that is your choice. It's the same for me feeling that evolution as described by mainstream science is not accurate.


    No it is not and all those claims have been debunked here and on the net thoroughly.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #261 - July 02, 2012, 08:03 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 07:55 PM
    Which question?




    Quote from: hypocrucifier on July 02, 2012, 07:12 PM
    Then why do you have that obsessive need to convert people ? Aren't you implying that your faith is 'superior' to theirs? Isn't this seeking homogeneity of views of 'the ultimate truth ' ? Where's is tolerance in all this? Genuine tolerance and respect is all about being able to live with all kinds of people,including those with whom you don't agree !
    If you lived strictly by what the Quran says it would be very difficult if not impossible NOT to be an exclusivist /supremacist.



    You can say that you disagree with Muslims who engage in caricaturing other faiths in order to carry out dawah (its a convenient way to avoid the issue) so if that is what you're going to say, you should at least express with a vehemence equal to that which you employ here, your criticism of the notion of Islamic exceptionalism and the practise of dawah, correct?
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #262 - July 02, 2012, 08:05 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 07:26 PM
    Well I was hoping to ascertain the root of all this negativity towards Islam. Secondly, I wanted to address it, and maybe show you all that most muslims are kind and good natured, as this is what Islam promotes. I'm not seeking to bring people back to Islam, that is outside my remit. I also wanted to make people on here see things from a muslim's perspective, and to show you that, whilst you may not know it, you can actually hurt a lot of people's feelings by some of your distasteful comments. Am I right in thinking that nobody here is intentionally trying to hurt anyone?


    Ok well I have no problem in accepting that some, or even most of all I know, muslims are kind and good natured. I don't think anyone here questioned that did they?

    I would think any ex-muslim, having once been a muslim, can see things from a muslim's perspective and that's why they are able to respond as they do. Do you not accept that these people have been harmed and damaged by Islam and that's why they left it.  

    I'm sure you're right in thinking that no-one here is intentionally trying to hurt anyone so can't you empathise with them somewhat for what they have suffered as a result of Islam instead of asking them to always empathise with you?
     
    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #263 - July 02, 2012, 08:11 PM
    Quote from: billy on July 02, 2012, 08:03 PM



    You can say that you disagree with Muslims who engage in caricaturing other faiths in order to carry out dawah (its a convenient way to avoid the issue) so if that is what you're going to say, you should at least express with a vehemence equal to that which you employ here, your criticism of the notion of Islamic exceptionalism and the practise of dawah, correct?


    Well I am tolerant of other faiths and I disagree with disparaging other faiths. Yes, as muslims we feel we are the ultimate truth. That is not to say that other faiths do not have their positive aspects as well. There's nothing wrong with dawah if it is done respectfully and with good intentions. After all, we want everyone to go to heaven, don't we?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #264 - July 02, 2012, 08:17 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 08:11 PM
    Well I am tolerant of other faiths and I disagree with disparaging other faiths. Yes, as muslims we feel we are the ultimate truth. That is not to say that other faiths do not have their positive aspects as well. There's nothing wrong with dawah if it is done respectfully and with good intentions. After all, we want everyone to go to heaven, don't we?[rofl]


     Roll Eyes banghead


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #265 - July 02, 2012, 08:18 PM
    Quote
    After all, we want everyone to go to heaven, don't we?


    You mean you believe that people will be tortured in hell simply for not following Islam? Wow, what a hateful, bigoted, sadistic belief to hold.

    See, even though that is a vile, inhuman, demonising, bigoted, loathsome belief to hold, I'll never ask for you to not say it even though it is obnoxious and hateful - you are free to hold and assert this torture minded inhumane belief - I will support your right to believe and state this vile, repulsive, disgusting belief 100% Afro

    That is secularism for you - I support your right to believe and articulate such primitive, hateful garbage, whilst simultaneously pointing out its hateful, primitive idiocy.

    Viva liberal secularism!
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #266 - July 02, 2012, 08:21 PM
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #267 - July 02, 2012, 08:22 PM
    Quote from: billy on July 02, 2012, 08:18 PM
    You mean you believe that people will be tortured in hell simply for not following Islam? Wow, what a hateful, bigoted, sadistic belief to hold.

    See, even though that is a vile, inhuman, demonising, bigoted, loathsome belief to hold, I'll never ask for you to not say it even though it is obnoxious and hateful - you are free to hold and assert this torture minded inhumane belief - I will support your right to believe and state this vile, repulsive, disgusting belief 100% Afro

    That is secularism for you - I support your right to believe and articulate such primitive, hateful garbage, whilst simultaneously pointing out its hateful, primitive idiocy.

    Viva liberal secularism!


    Why are you jumping to conclusions? I didn't say non-muslims automatically go to hell. What I believe is that Islam is a powerful catalyst to make it into heaven. It's a bit like turbo/nitro in F1 Grand Prix..many will make it to the finish line, but not all will achieve the maximum prize. You're a bit snide sometimes.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #268 - July 02, 2012, 08:23 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on July 02, 2012, 07:59 PM
    Well I didn't want to get into a theological discussion here. That is outside the scope of this thread. The Qu'ran is not a book of science, however, the science it does contain is accurate and in some cases, miraculous. If you don't see that or refuse to believe that, then that is your choice. It's the same for me feeling that evolution as described by mainstream science is not accurate.


    You contradict yourself, you claim to follow a logical faith yet time and, time again you make logically flawed comments. You say that Qu'ran is not a book of science, and then in the same breath contradict that statement by saying, that the science it does contain is accurate, and then you make a comment which is so absurd by saying miraculous science, science does not deal with the supernatural, miraculous is a different field to science they are not even compatible. I refuse to believe something which is scientifically inaccurate.

    So evolution by mainstream science isn't accurate? Would you care to point out which body of evidence you can falsify to show that your statement is true? When I said the Qu'ran is scientifically inaccurate, I showed an example, you on the other hand are just making claims without even baking them up, when you make a positive claim the onus is on you to proof that claim.

    Also saying that discussion is outside the scope of this thread is at most silly and at worst disingenuous.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #269 - July 02, 2012, 08:26 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on July 02, 2012, 08:23 PM
    You contradict yourself, you claim to follow a logical faith yet time and, time again you make logically flawed comments. You say that Qu'ran is not a book of science, and then in the same breath contradict that statement by saying, that the science it does contain is accurate, and then you make a comment which is so absurd by saying miraculous science, science does not deal with the supernatural, miraculous is a different field to science they are not even compatible. I refuse to believe something which is scientifically inaccurate.

    So evolution by mainstream science isn't accurate? Would you care to point out which body of evidence you can falsify to show that your statement is true? When I said the Qu'ran is scientifically inaccurate, I showed an example, you on the other hand are just making claims without even baking them up, when you make a positive claim the onus is on you to proof that claim.

    Also saying that discussion is outside the scope of this thread is at most silly and at worst disingenuous.


    Come on...discussing astronomy/ creationism vs evolution is a whole different ball game. That is well beyond what we are discussing here.
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