Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"

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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #60 - July 12, 2012, 12:24 AM

Quote from: chepea on July 11, 2012, 11:03 PM

How Muslims squared living in Makkah for 13 years.

You mean you can't envision leaving peaceably with non Muslims without referencing the Sunnah of 1400 years ago? Because those days don't contain much of comfort for non Muslims, and if you reference it you're opening up a real can of worms.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #61 - July 12, 2012, 03:02 AM

The Muslims eventually fought with them, and once victorious destroyed the symbols of their religion. Not really an example that you'd want to reference or emulate in a modern pluralistic society.

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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #62 - July 12, 2012, 04:47 AM

Quote from: billy on July 12, 2012, 12:24 AM
You mean you can't envision leaving peaceably with non Muslims without referencing the Sunnah of 1400 years ago? Because those days don't contain much of comfort for non Muslims, and if you reference it you're opening up a real can of worms.

Living in Makkah didn't have much comfort for Muslims either.

But I can envision living peacefully with non-Muslims, because I did (when I was a Muslim) and I do (when I behave like a Muslim nowadays).

If anything, I had more trouble dealing with my extremely anti-hijabi uncle a week ago then I do in Canada. :/ So, yeah....

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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #63 - July 12, 2012, 11:57 AM

Quote
Living in Makkah didn't have much comfort for Muslims either.

But I can envision living peacefully with non-Muslims, because I did (when I was a Muslim) and I do (when I behave like a Muslim nowadays).

Sure, that is what Muslims say, because its the foundation stone of the eternal victimhood narrative.

You are able to live in Canada because you're just a regular humanist person. But why should Muslims consider they need to reference the sunnah of 1400 years ago to contextualise modern cosmopolitan societies and their place in them? This is part of the problem.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #64 - July 12, 2012, 06:26 PM

Quote from: billy on July 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
Sure, that is what Muslims say, because its the foundation stone of the eternal victimhood narrative.

That doesn't mean that it's not true.

Quote
You are able to live in Canada because you're just a regular humanist person. But why should Muslims consider they need to reference the sunnah of 1400 years ago to contextualise modern cosmopolitan societies and their place in them? This is part of the problem.

Because they're Muslims. The Qur'an and Sunnah are Islam. It's like their Constitution or Bill of Rights or Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, or whatever the British equivalent is. It's part of their identity. :/

And I didn't know I was a humanist! I didn't tick that box in the survey! Haha.

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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #65 - July 12, 2012, 06:37 PM

Do you have to make reference to ancient Mecca just to live in harmony with non Muslims?

You would have the moral sense that that is the right thing to do without looking back 1400 years, right?

So its your normal human sense of decency that gives you that moral sense, which is shared by everyone else in Canada, who don't need to care about what happened in Mecca to do so.

You do that because you have humanist instincts - regardless of any divine or supernatural injunctions.

By the way, the constant referencing of the Quran and Sunnah will, I believe, leave Islam very exposed in the liberal secular societies of the west - because the more it is asserted, the more scrutiny it will come under.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #66 - July 12, 2012, 06:41 PM

Quote from: billy on July 12, 2012, 06:37 PM
Do you have to make reference to ancient Mecca just to live in harmony with non Muslims?

You would have the moral sense that that is the right thing to do without looking back 1400 years, right?

So its your normal human sense of decency that gives you that moral sense, which is shared by everyone else in Canada, who don't need to care about what happened in Mecca to do so.

I'm seriously confused now. :/ I thought you were asking IF it's possible to live with non-Muslims, and I said yes, like they did in Makkah (before they ahd to flee) or in Madinah with the non-Muslim tribes and treaties and what not.

For actually living, in my day-to-day interactions, I guess a Muslim would need to reference the Sunnah to prove that you can be nice to non-Muslims. :/ Or for stuff like opening bank accounts (interest), working at casinos or something, stuff like that. But not when smiling at your neighbour or saying hi to your teacher or something.

Quote from: billy on July 12, 2012, 06:37 PM
By the way, the constant referencing of the Quran and Sunnah will, I believe, leave Islam very exposed in the liberal secular societies of the west - because the more it is asserted, the more scrutiny it will come under.

You'd like that.

But yeah I see what you mean. Obviously the more it falls under the limelight, the more people will criticise it, but more people may also be impressed by it. Converts and stuff.

So yeah. Goes both ways I guess.

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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #67 - July 12, 2012, 06:48 PM

The Sunnah hasn't even begun to be examined yet properly - death threats and blasphemy taboos accompany it. That's why Muslims are so eager to preserve a one way street of carrying out dawah without truthful examination. I sense that changing. The examination hasn't begun in earnest yet.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #68 - July 12, 2012, 06:49 PM

I dunno about that. Maybe you sense the waves of change better than I do

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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #69 - July 12, 2012, 07:19 PM

Islam has never had to deal with anything like liberal secular democracy before - in other words, a culture that is based on the questioning and scrutiny of the truth claims of all belief systems and ideologies. Especially those that assert total truth claims and seek to influence society in the way that Islam, like Christianity used to do (and still does in its fundamentalist, evangelical forms)

One of the reasons for the hysteria of Islamists in the west in terms of their ideology, is because they fear having the taboos against repudiation of religion being removed. Which is what is happening.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #70 - July 12, 2012, 08:43 PM

Quote from: billy on July 12, 2012, 07:19 PM
Islam has never had to deal with anything like liberal secular democracy before - in other words, a culture that is based on the questioning and scrutiny of the truth claims of all belief systems and ideologies. Especially those that assert total truth claims and seek to influence society in the way that Islam, like Christianity used to do (and still does in its fundamentalist, evangelical forms)

One of the reasons for the hysteria of Islamists in the west in terms of their ideology, is because they fear having the taboos against repudiation of religion being removed. Which is what is happening.

Don't know enough about Islamic history to comment. Sorry. :/

It's weird that the first time I've heard the word "Islamists" has been on this site. And anti-Islam sites. I'm just saying.

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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #71 - July 12, 2012, 08:53 PM

Yeah that is weird.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #72 - July 12, 2012, 08:54 PM

Do you think maybe Islamism or whatever is a bigger deal in Europe? I think it may be.

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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #73 - July 12, 2012, 09:00 PM

You mean than in Canada? I couldn't say for sure as I don't know enough about Canada.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Quran etc etc split from "What book are you reading?"
Reply #74 - July 12, 2012, 09:01 PM

Yeah.

I don't either. I know about some annoying man, Tarek Fatah. He's always on the radio and bugs the heck out of me.

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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