String Theory

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String Theory
OP - July 10, 2012, 10:11 PM

Right, I've just finished the bastard book that I've been reading on String Theory (Elegant Universe by Brian Greene). Just wanted to share my relief at finally being able to read something that hurts my head a little less

And I realise that my opinion counts about as much as an ape's does when he has his own ideas on how the zoo he is in should be run, but I am sold completely. There is way too much elegance and promise, within M theory in particular, for there not to be something there. It's predictive powers regarding gravity, it's conception of Supersymmetry, it's unique unification of all forces, it's explanations of fundamental properties that other theories daren't even attempt within their models, it's explanation of Hawking's entropy within black holes...

As GRB will no doubt point out, the theory often poses more questions than it answers. And it ultimately pains a fair number of classical physicists with it's inability to present itself as a more readily testable theory. But despite that, I'm keen to learn as much as possible on this beautiful thing.

What I'd be happy at getting from you clever people is some help on where I can read up on the latest advances? Greene wrote his book nearly a decade and a half ago, is there any book out there that will allow me to catch up?

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Re: String Theory
Reply #1 - July 11, 2012, 05:55 PM

This is a plea to Os, GRB, Stardust, Peruvian, Tut, Ishina....and anyone else I've missed... Hell, z10 and Desuvult can give us their philosophical view if they wish:

Come on dudes, this thread is sat here waiting for your nerdy input

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Re: String Theory
Reply #2 - July 11, 2012, 05:57 PM

So how long is this string, and why should we care?

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Re: String Theory
Reply #3 - July 11, 2012, 06:12 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 10, 2012, 10:11 PM
And I realise that my opinion counts about as much as an ape's does when he has his own ideas on how the zoo he is in should be run, but I am sold completely. There is way too much elegance and promise, within M theory in particular, for there not to be something there. It's predictive powers regarding gravity, it's conception of Supersymmetry, it's unique unification of all forces, it's explanations of fundamental properties that other theories daren't even attempt within their models, it's explanation of Hawking's entropy within black holes...

It's an amazing piece of work, it does what no other theory in the GUT department does, it unifies everything we understand elegantly. We shouldn't really get ahead of ourselves, though. Back in early 19th century, people thought they had a pretty complete model of physics, aether explained everything they knew, till a bright young man called Einstein came along and made the clocks relative. I don't think that we need an Einstein, but we should definitely consider more areas other than string theory.

Progress at the LHC has been troubling for string theory. There's been no evidence of SUSY at the energies it was expected at, and with the mass that they found the Higgs at makes it even more difficult for SUSY to be true. If SUSY was found at the LHC, it would have given string theory a lot of weight.

Explaining things has never been an issue for string theory, with 10⁵⁰⁰ possible configurations, you can explain almost anything with string theory, the problem is that is has to be narrowed down and make accurate, falsifiable predictions, and so far, string theory hasn't done that.

An area of interest for the GUT department is Proton decay, no one is really sure if they decay or not, but they're currently looking at it. If it turns out to that they decay, it would help us narrow down our GUT theories and help us potentially modify string theory.

You're right to think that string theory has a lot of promise, but it's really been the same thing since it was formulated. It's just lots of promise without delivering much, it's lost a lot of momentum because of it.

But there is a lot of physics to go, SUSY might turn out to be true, and LQG might see new advances. As always, we should let the data do the talking.
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Re: String Theory
Reply #4 - July 11, 2012, 06:57 PM

Quote from: toor on July 11, 2012, 05:57 PM
So how long is this string, and why should we care?

Lol. And it's planck length. And, yes, that is absolutely critical to many aspects of the theory. But I dont need to tell u that, you're a proper scientist, are you not?

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Re: String Theory
Reply #5 - July 11, 2012, 06:59 PM

Grb, I'll get back to you...but you strike me as a stubborn Einstein in his later days: wasting your genius because the truth that lies in front of you is too messy for your liking.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #6 - July 11, 2012, 08:01 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 11, 2012, 06:59 PM
Grb, I'll get back to you...but you strike me as a stubborn Einstein in his later days: wasting your genius because the truth that lies in front of you is too messy for your liking.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #7 - July 11, 2012, 08:08 PM

How long is a string theory?

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Re: String Theory
Reply #8 - July 11, 2012, 08:10 PM

Right Billy, I really am gonna report you to the REAL mods.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #9 - July 11, 2012, 08:51 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 11, 2012, 06:59 PM
Grb, I'll get back to you...but you strike me as a stubborn Einstein in his later days: wasting your genius because the truth that lies in front of you is too messy for your liking.

I have to agree with Grb. Elegance is nothing without evidence. LHC hasn't ruled out either String Theory or SUSY. However, the lack of evidence so far for SUSY isn't looking promising. From what I can understand, the simplest version of the (SUSY) theory has more or less been ruled out.

In any case, we have exciting times ahead of us!

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Re: String Theory
Reply #10 - July 11, 2012, 10:15 PM

Right Grb (and Peruvian Beauty). I know nothing about SUSY or the Proton Decay, so that's what I'll be reading up on next when I run out of crack-cocaine, and have the urge to do something crazy to stave off the cravings. But I do think you're being harsh to string theory with two things in your response:

Firstly, you make out that there are endless possibilities from which String theory can draw upon. Your permutations may be correct, but that doesn't necessarily mean your reasoning is. String theorists have to work within constraints: they know that there are 11 dimensions in total (if you include one dimension for brane expansion). They also know that seven of these are curled up. They also have exact values for life's basic components and force-carriers. They also know that there are only literally thousands of corresponding Calabi-Yau shapes that satisfy the equations from which these exact dimensions, coupled with exact values for forces and particles. This is the framework that they work within. What's more, any conclusions that they draw are backed with impressive cutting-edge mathematics, and these are not fuelled on mere speculation... The current main criticism that is labelled against them stems from the fact that they are not sure what value to use for something called the string 'coupling-constant', which falls at the heart of their equations. So they have to use a range of values for this, which means that they often end up using speculative equations for their theories (which is where your big number comes from?). However, my understanding is that M theory had helped things in this respect, and calculations are becoming ever more refined and ever more useful as a result.

Secondly, it is harsh to say that String theory is standing still. In fact, it is by far the most dynamic of theories, and that is why it has attracted so many respectable proponents. Since it's inception and dismissal in the 70's, it came back strong in the 80's to actually predict the graviton (as opposed to trying to incorporate it, as other theories are attempting), and to conceptualise Supersymmetry (which even the Standard Model later took on because of string theory). Then, after a lull, Witten's work on the nature of the coupling-constant ended up uniting all the stray branches of string theory, and by incorporating Supergravity also, M theory was born. After this, stronger, deeper tools were at their disposal, and a second revolution of string theorists were able to produce works such as explaining why rips in space are not necessarily detrimental to physical laws, and why the entropy in black holes exists... And I've left out all exciting recent advances, because I haven't read that far, but you have to accept you've been too dismissive of this thing?

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Re: String Theory
Reply #11 - July 12, 2012, 07:23 AM

I didn't intend to come across as dismissive. I love the theory and acknowledge that it's a strong one mathematically. But I feel there's too much missing from our knowledge and not enough evidence yet to put too much faith into it yet. LHc still has so much more to discover, it's not even running at it's full potential yet so there is still a chance to find things that can support or have been predicted by String theory. That would be exciting indeed, although I wouldn't be upset if that didn't happen. I'd love for it to find something that requires a huge re-think and development of completely new theories.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #12 - July 12, 2012, 08:21 AM

Yeah, string theorists themselves are the first to admit that everything is just an approximate at the moment. It will possibly take the best part of this century to even formulate the mysterious equations of M theory, which is where many of the key answers are going to lie. And they also accept that String Theory eventually needs to become more like other theories in the way it is tested and confirmed: to this end, they have already offered one test for the near future (a key recent finding was that if a black hole can be found that is relatively small, it will emit sufficient photons to be detected by sensitive enough equipment - thus confirming some crucial aspects of current equations and fundamentals of strings and branes).

But yeah, so much more has to be done. But already enough has been offered to convince many, many really clever people that they are onto something HUGE here. Whatever the final TOE, M theory is the current front-runner to provide a springboard to that final resting place.

God, I wish I could fast-forward a few centuries and know now what those lucky bastards will know then

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Re: String Theory
Reply #13 - July 12, 2012, 04:48 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 12, 2012, 08:21 AM
Yeah, string theorists themselves are the first to admit that everything is just an approximate at the moment. It will possibly take the best part of this century to even formulate the mysterious equations of M theory, which is where many of the key answers are going to lie. And they also accept that String Theory eventually needs to become more like other theories in the way it is tested and confirmed.

String theory/M theory has failed time and time again to make unique, testable predictions and the ones it has made have failed consistently, before the LHC was starting there were a lot of claims about how string theory would testable at the LHC, and how symmetry would be immediately apparent, but the reality is a lot different.

Quote
(a key recent finding was that if a black hole can be found that is relatively small, it will emit sufficient photons to be detected by sensitive enough equipment - thus confirming some crucial aspects of current equations and fundamentals of strings and branes).

Similar claims have been made before, they predicted mini black holes to be produced in the LHC...that failed. It's not the only prediction they have made, they've made quite a few, and I'll let you guess how that turned up.

To say that I am dismissive of string theory is incorrect, I am skeptical of it given all the evidence (lack of it), so far. It's an idea that's been around for a quarter-century and has failed to be testable. It's not enough for a physical scientific theory to be mathematically consistent, it has to be experimentally verified.

For a more balanced view on string theory, I suggest that you read Not Even Wrong.
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Re: String Theory
Reply #14 - July 12, 2012, 07:16 PM

GRB, it seems that when they were handing out brains, I was busy trying it on with Eve in the Garden of Eden, whilst you were spending your time wisely sucking the Lord's dick in order to get yourself a good deal.

Ok, I'll read all of that. Sounds like I need a bit more balance. But you need to come slightly the other way, and get a little more caught up in its wonderment, its elegance, its wonderful promise, and its steady but continuous development into something that even classicists can get excited about

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Re: String Theory
Reply #15 - July 12, 2012, 08:04 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 10, 2012, 10:11 PM
Right, I've just finished the bastard book that I've been reading on String Theory (Elegant Universe by Brian Greene). Just wanted to share my relief at finally being able to read something that hurts my head a little less

And I realise that my opinion counts about as much as an ape's does when he has his own ideas on how the zoo he is in should be run, but I am sold completely. There is way too much elegance and promise, within M theory in particular, for there not to be something there. It's predictive powers regarding gravity, it's conception of Supersymmetry, it's unique unification of all forces, it's explanations of fundamental properties that other theories daren't even attempt within their models, it's explanation of Hawking's entropy within black holes...

As GRB will no doubt point out, the theory often poses more questions than it answers. And it ultimately pains a fair number of classical physicists with it's inability to present itself as a more readily testable theory. But despite that, I'm keen to learn as much as possible on this beautiful thing.

What I'd be happy at getting from you clever people is some help on where I can read up on the latest advances? Greene wrote his book nearly a decade and a half ago, is there any book out there that will allow me to catch up?

Elegant Universe was one hell of a book. I read it few years back. It's a little complex though not really for the laymen.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=13095.msg367050#msg367050

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: String Theory
Reply #16 - July 12, 2012, 08:07 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 12, 2012, 07:16 PM
GRB, it seems that when they were handing out brains, I was busy trying it on with Eve in the Garden of Eden, whilst you were spending your time wisely sucking the Lord's dick in order to get yourself a good deal.

Ok, I'll read all of that. Sounds like I need a bit more balance. But you need to come slightly the other way, and get a little more caught up in its wonderment, its elegance, its wonderful promise, and its steady but continuous development into something that even classicists can get excited about

^i think GRB sees all that mate - i think the point he is trying to make is that string theory has yet to come up with a testable prediction - to put it bluntly some people rightly or wrongly point out that if a theory makes no testable prediction then it may not even be considered a real theory of science - although i do think this is quite harsh way of looking at things. even if we found evidence of susy at the LHC for example this is still not direct evidence for string theory as it is very possible for susy to exist independently of string theory - it would simply indicate that string theorists might be on the right track. for all its beauty we have to bear in mind that string theory has yet to make a testable prediction - this is why the theory is the butt of many jokes within the physics community. but i also hope that one day the theory is proven correct in my lifetime

oh and i recommend Greene's fabric of the cosmos for your next read - in my opinion better than the elegant universe

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Re: String Theory
Reply #17 - July 12, 2012, 08:17 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 10, 2012, 10:11 PM
Right, I've just finished the bastard book that I've been reading on String Theory (Elegant Universe by Brian Greene). Just wanted to share my relief at finally being able to read something that hurts my head a little less

And I realise that my opinion counts about as much as an ape's does when he has his own ideas on how the zoo he is in should be run, but I am sold completely. There is way too much elegance and promise, within M theory in particular, for there not to be something there. It's predictive powers regarding gravity, it's conception of Supersymmetry, it's unique unification of all forces, it's explanations of fundamental properties that other theories daren't even attempt within their models, it's explanation of Hawking's entropy within black holes...

I agree with you, it does have a large body of evidence, but some of the concepts are so counter-intuitive, they are hard to wrap your head around. You just have to keep an open-mind about it, like you see M theory does look promising.

Quote
As GRB will no doubt point out, the theory often poses more questions than it answers. And it ultimately pains a fair number of classical physicists with it's inability to present itself as a more readily testable theory. But despite that, I'm keen to learn as much as possible on this beautiful thing.

Yes, that is true the problem can arise when you try to explain phenomenon, and you multiply variables to explain the phenomenon beyond logical parsimony, sometimes the simplistic answer is not the right answer but in science there is a rule of thumb which is not to multiply variables beyond logical parsimony, i.e. basically the simplest explanation is usually the best one.

Quote
What I'd be happy at getting from you clever people is some help on where I can read up on the latest advances? Greene wrote his book nearly a decade and a half ago, is there any book out there that will allow me to catch up?

Yes, pick up: The Quantum Universe: Everything that can happen does happen - by Cox and Forshaw:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Quantum-Universe-Everything-that-happen/dp/0241952700/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342124121&sr=1-1

This will bring you to to speed, but they are a bit complex not really for the laymen. But Cox does try to do a good job of breaking it down for you.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #18 - July 12, 2012, 08:53 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 12, 2012, 07:16 PM
GRB, it seems that when they were handing out brains, I was busy trying it on with Eve in the Garden of Eden, whilst you were spending your time wisely sucking the Lord's dick in order to get yourself a good deal.

It was well worth it.
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Re: String Theory
Reply #19 - July 12, 2012, 09:29 PM

Quote from: Blade Gunner on July 12, 2012, 08:07 PM
^i think GRB sees all that mate - i think the point he is trying to make is that string theory has yet to come up with a testable prediction - to put it bluntly some people rightly or wrongly point out that if a theory makes no testable prediction then it may not even be considered a real theory of science - although i do think this is quite harsh way of looking at things. even if we found evidence of susy at the LHC for example this is still not direct evidence for string theory as it is very possible for susy to exist independently of string theory - it would simply indicate that string theorists might be on the right track. for all its beauty we have to bear in mind that string theory has yet to make a testable prediction - this is why the theory is the butt of many jokes within the physics community. but i also hope that one day the theory is proven correct in my lifetime
oh and i recommend Greene's fabric of the cosmos for your next read - in my opinion better than the elegant universe

Hey Abuyunus, good to see you here again.

Yeah, I'm coming round to seeing that. But it's taking a little time to get used to the fact that GRB's usually contagious enthusiasm for all things science is disappointingly muted for String Theory. But I'm getting there.

Yeah, and thanks for the recommendation: I'll read that next, especially considering that GRB recommended the same book to me, during a lull on our sexy time on PM.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #20 - July 12, 2012, 09:37 PM

Hey King...I think I get your explanation on simplest being good. Unfortunately the TOE seems to be a stubborn goat that refuses to bow to this rule. It seems that the more we try to get there, the more complicated and convoluted our maths and physics seems to become. Hopefully, this is just the storm before the calm though.

And thanks for the recommendation also. That book seems to have a quantum focus? I've read a fair few books on Quantum Mechanics already, and I'm more interested in reading something that is more exclusively on M theory right now?

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Re: String Theory
Reply #21 - July 12, 2012, 09:56 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 12, 2012, 09:29 PM
Hey Abuyunus, good to see you here again.

Yeah, I'm coming round to seeing that. But it's taking a little time to get used to the fact that GRB's usually contagious enthusiasm for all things science is disappointingly muted for String Theory. But I'm getting there.

The excitement for string theory is over, it's entered the realm of desperation at the moment. I don't really think that it's a fruitful endeavour, as much as I'd like it to be true, the data suggests otherwise.

I don't really consider string theory to be a part of the scientific process, it's skipped a major step that every well founded hypothesis has to undergo to earn the title of being called a scientific theory. If you're really going to be scientific you can't skip the scientific process, we have to stay true to the principles which have led us this far. Nothing is above it, not even string theory.
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Re: String Theory
Reply #22 - July 12, 2012, 10:15 PM

You're breaking my heart GRB. Your words are like coarse spoons slowly jabbing into my heart, until they finally gain entry and destroy what little love I still hold within.

I'll read all the links you've posted, and come back ~~in order to agree with you... and to acknowledge once more that there is a God, and he goes by the name of Jaylord~~

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Re: String Theory
Reply #23 - July 12, 2012, 10:18 PM

Forgot to say, hope you're well Mr Gunner? Are you still ace at keeping religion out of your marriage? I'm getting better at it myself.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #24 - July 12, 2012, 10:31 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 12, 2012, 10:18 PM
Are you still ace at keeping religion out of your marriage? I'm getting better at it myself.
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Re: String Theory
Reply #25 - July 12, 2012, 10:41 PM

Quote from: musivore on July 12, 2012, 10:15 PM
You're breaking my heart GRB. Your words are like coarse spoons slowly jabbing into my heart, until they finally gain entry and destroy what little love I still hold within.

I'd like things to be different, but the universe doesn't care. It isn't demeaning though, it means that were once again on the path to probe the underpinning of the universe with our minds, solve the amazing puzzles of nature, in a manner that makes rapid progress, and helps us understand the universe better, that's exciting.
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Re: String Theory
Reply #26 - July 12, 2012, 10:58 PM

Yeah, give me time bro. I'll move on.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #27 - July 13, 2012, 07:29 AM

Quote from: musivore on July 12, 2012, 07:16 PM
GRB, it seems that when they were handing out brains, I was busy trying it on with Eve in the Garden of Eden, whilst you were spending your time wisely sucking the Lord's dick in order to get yourself a good deal.

Ok, I'll read all of that. Sounds like I need a bit more balance. But you need to come slightly the other way, and get a little more caught up in its wonderment, its elegance, its wonderful promise, and its steady but continuous development into something that even classicists can get excited about

You wont get very far with an objective viewpoint if that's your reaction to well-reasoned criticism.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #28 - July 13, 2012, 08:33 AM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on July 13, 2012, 07:29 AM
You wont get very far with an objective viewpoint if that's your reaction to well-reasoned criticism.

Ouch.

He's a romantic. Forgive him.

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Re: String Theory
Reply #29 - July 13, 2012, 10:34 AM

Quote from: musivore on July 12, 2012, 10:18 PM
Forgot to say, hope you're well Mr Gunner? Are you still ace at keeping religion out of your marriage? I'm getting better at it myself.

yeah - and my wife is pretty good at it too. glad things are looking up for you

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