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Theme Changer

 Topic: How Islam Began

 (Read 4509 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • How Islam Began
     OP - July 18, 2012, 12:54 AM

    A very interesting lecture on how Islam began according to archaeological evidence. Turns out the historical account of Islam's beginnings is very different from the traditional story that muslims preach.. who would have thought  Roll Eyes   

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qevax3e0_Fw&feature=g-all-u

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #1 - July 18, 2012, 10:08 AM


    Thanks, I will watch this later  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #2 - July 18, 2012, 11:52 AM

    A very interesting lecture on how Islam began according to archaeological evidence. Turns out the historical account of Islam's beginnings is very different from the traditional story that muslims preach.. who would have thought  Roll Eyes   

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qevax3e0_Fw&feature=g-all-u


    Well.. out of that 40 mts or so talk  first 20mts is just well known Yadi..yada story of earlier Islam.  Fred Donner is not a very good speaker but he published great works in 80s and 90s. They are worth reading. In fact I wish his books were available in East and prescribed for high school/college students as a course in  History/social sciences.   One must realize in reading history of early religions and stories that come out of them, No one is unquestionable. And I am of the opinion that Fred also didn't get it right, But it is good to read his works for those who are interested in this fascinating Islamic history.

    Anyways here are some of his works..


    The Early Islamic Conquests

    Muhammad and the Believers: At the Origins of Islam

    Narratives of Islamic Origins: The Beginnings of Islamic Historical Writing (Studies in Late Antiquity and Early Islam

    The History of Al-Tabari: The Conquest of Arabia

    The Expansion of the Early Islamic State (The Formation of the Classical Islamic World)


    Well those are his books,  in time we will add more of his published works from Journals


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #3 - July 18, 2012, 01:43 PM

    Other tubes of that Fred Donner..


    How Islam Began - Fred Donner


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA


     
    Islam and Democracy

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L5FZ6m8XD8

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #4 - July 27, 2012, 11:18 PM

    Hmm interesting.

    His assertion that there is almost no archaeological evidence for a Muslim conquest in the Middle East or for the transition from Byzantine to Arab rule (34:40 of the video) stands in direct contrast to a recent book I read by Emmet Scott (Mohammad & Charlemagne Revisited). A book that Billy put me onto in fact.

    Scott states in numerous parts of his book (pg.132-133, 159, 173,-181) that many towns in the Middle East and North Africa were abandoned or destroyed in the wake of the Islamic conquest and that there is a famous archaeological layer known as “the younger fill” that coincides roughly with the Islamic conquests and after this point there is virtually no archaeological evidence whatsoever for urban life in any of the major cities of the Mediterranean.

    Scott goes so far as to state that there is no archaeological trace of Islamic civilization whatsoever from the period between 650-950 CE (pg. 180) and that it is only after this period that the cities of the region appear to be repopulated and real archaeological traces of urban life return.

    Here is a direct quote from his book:

    Quote
    Although I agree that the Arabs brought immense destruction to North Africa and indeed to Egypt, Syria and Anatolia, any reader of these reports must nonetheless find it strange that virtually all archaeology should disappear from these areas for three centuries. For disappear it did. We are told after all. That Islam did not have a Dark Age – this was something only Europe is supposed to have experienced. Yet archaeology of all kinds disappears from the regions controlled by Islam as surely as it does from Europe. (pg. 178)


    I am somewhat skeptical of Scott’s assertions but I have searched online and have not yet found anybody who has offered a critique of this book. I think I am going to send an email to this Fred Donner and find out if he has read this book, what he thinks of it and if he can weigh in on this discrepancy.

    It's worth a shot right? He will probably not even read my email, but you never know....
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #5 - July 29, 2012, 11:26 AM


    Tony, did you check these books out, anything of value in them as far as you study of Islam is concerned?

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=21493.0


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #6 - July 29, 2012, 11:27 AM

    It's worth a shot right? He will probably not even read my email, but you never know....


    Yes, go for it!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #7 - July 29, 2012, 12:41 PM

    Definitely worth contacting people like this.  I think CEMB may be hiding its light under a bushel.  As far as academics are concerned, CEMB must be a very important source, as it is giving the samizdat view.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #8 - July 30, 2012, 12:31 PM

    Tony, did you check these books out, anything of value in them as far as you study of Islam is concerned?

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=21493.0


    I have not looked at any of them yet. But I have downloaded and saved all of them. Thanks.

    I emailed Fred Donner about Scott Emmet's book. And he did reply to me. He said:

    Quote
    "Scott's book is published by an organization that is dedicated to discrediting Islam. (New English Review, a division of the World Encounter Institute of Nashville, TN) So...that is not a very good indication as to the objectivity of the book. There seems to be a lot of money behind various Islam-bashing groups--don't know whose, but it's there, so this stuff gets wide circulation."


    If this is the case then that should be all the more reason why the book should be looked at and criticized rather than ignored. Afterall theRationalizer does not just ignore scientific miracle claims about the Koran just because they are backed by Saudi money.

    Anyway he did suggest I take a look at another book by Michael McCormick called "Origins of the European Economy: Communications and Commerce, A.D. 300-900". So if I can find that at my library or on amazon for a reasonable price then I will look at that too.

    Oh also Donner said that Donald Whitcomb is the guy most knowledgeable about the Byzantine-Islamic transition from the archaeological perspective. Although this guy does happen to be his collegue (both are at the Uni of Chicago).
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #9 - July 30, 2012, 03:07 PM

    New English Review are the publishers of Ibn Warraq!!   Cheesy

    Just got that book and am fascinated!  A 300 year hole in Arab archaeology is very interesting!  Did Holland mention this?

    But what of Baghdad?

    Wiki

    Quote
    On 30 July 762 the caliph Al Mansur commissioned the construction of the city and it was built under the supervision of the Barmakids.[15] Mansur believed that Baghdad was the perfect city to be the capital of the Islamic empire under the Abbasids. Mansur loved the site so much he is quoted saying, "This is indeed the city that I am to found, where I am to live, and where my descendants will reign afterward".[16]


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #10 - July 30, 2012, 03:27 PM

    ........... A 300 year hole in Arab archaeology is very interesting! .............

    that is a very important point Islamic historians don't want to touch .,  That is a good reason to believe Robert Spencer's book may be closer to the  truth  than that Quran/hadith .........

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #11 - July 30, 2012, 03:31 PM

    But what of Baghdad?


    Can't remember if the book addresses Baghdad specifically. But it does mention that Iraq and Persia are the exceptions, there are some archaeological remains there in that period but still not as much as one would expect to find. It could be that Baghdad is difficult to find stuff because it lies beneath the modern city. I don't know.

    But the book does deal with Samarra in depth, and says that most of the material that was originally thought to have dated to the 9th Century is actually from the 10th Century.
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #12 - July 30, 2012, 06:37 PM

    My kindle has just crashed!  Fascinatiing tidbits about this 300 years!  Including our calendars are all wrong?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #13 - August 01, 2012, 09:38 PM

    Finished it after downloading kindle again.  Very interesting but somehow dissatisfying.

    Feels like it was basically pastoralists with loads of sheep and goats wrecked highly sophisticated irrigation based agriculture systems and the cities, cultures and technologies they supported.  These pastoralists basically had an attitude - Allah is with me, I can let my goats graze where they wish, Allah has said it is all ours so I can enslave you and continually carry out holy war against you and I am free to continually carry out pirate raids.

    Oh and if you complain you are a blasphemer so I can execute you.  Result - dark ages and fascinatingly no archaeological evidence of an Islamic golden age!

    This feels correct.  An example, a highly educate Muslim was in my car and we were eating a takeaway, he opened his door and threw the rubbish out - I felt he had no concept of civil society.

    http://hayesworldview.wordpress.com/tag/emmet-scott/

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: How Islam Began
     Reply #14 - August 02, 2012, 09:15 AM

    A very interesting lecture on how Islam began according to archaeological evidence. Turns out the historical account of Islam's beginnings is very different from the traditional story that muslims preach.. who would have thought  Roll Eyes   

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qevax3e0_Fw&feature=g-all-u


    No offence dude, but there wasn't much there that we didn't know about.

    Unless I missed something. (Because I watched the clip laying on my bed just before going to sleep.)
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