Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan

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Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
OP - July 18, 2012, 01:02 PM

Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan

well that is the goal of Mr. Imran Khan and this is the ad from his party

PTI can and will create an Islamic Welfare state as promised by our Chairman! it says

and Mr. Khan says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkaciWuk4xU

His party scream around

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWoh0fsh7KE

Let us discuss a biy more on that subject .. What is Islamic welfare state? and which country, which ruler when in Islam there was an Islamic Welfare State??

Was in the time of Prophet of Islam(the alleged silly stories of Islam/Muhammad ) did Islam had Islamic welfare state??
Was in the time of rightly guided Caliphs of Islam(the alleged silly stories of Islam during their time ) did Islam had Islamic welfare state??

let me briefly put the history of Islam here

First 100 years of ISLAM (600-699)

Quote
605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.

Quote
620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.

Quote
633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
662: Khawarij revolts.
666: Raid of Sicily.
670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.

That is the brief time line first 100 year of Islam..

DID WE HAD ANY ISLAMIC WELFARE STATE DURING THAT TIME??

and what is Islamic welfare state??

This fool Mr. Khan, although good guy great Cricket player BUT HE IS A FOOL on theology + on Islamic history. He talks about Islamic welfare state without knowing what it is and what it was. Mr. Khan says Sweden and some western countries are Islamic welfare states.

Does he even question simple thing, how did they become Islamic welfare states without a Muslim and Islam in them??

Anyways., there is no doubt Pakistan needs such good guys as Imran Khan as politicians.. but but,, He is fool and I am afraid he is playing in to wrong hands in a long run.. when I say long in the next 10 years or so..

we will discuss more on the subject of Islam/Politics and Islamic welfare state.

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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #1 - July 18, 2012, 01:04 PM

The Romans had a Welfare State - they gave out corn to the millions. I hate it when Islam claims they invented stuff. They didn't!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_supply_to_the_city_of_Rome

Quote
In 58 BC, the patrician-turned-plebeian Clodius Pulcher advanced a popularist political agenda in his bid for the tribunate by offering free grain for the poor. The expense was considerable, and Julius Caesar later reformed the dole. Augustus considered abolishing it altogether, but instead reduced the number of the recipients to 200,000, and perhaps later 150,000.

Later emperors all used free or greatly subsidized grain to keep the populace fed. The political use of the grain supply along with gladiatorial games and other entertainments gave rise to the saying "Bread and circuses". As the empire continued, the annona became more complex. During the reign of Septimius Severus, olive oil was added to the distribution, and during that of Aurelian, pork and wine.

Now, might the Islamic prohibition on pork and wine actually be a political move against the Roman Empire?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #2 - July 18, 2012, 01:10 PM

Quote from: moi on July 18, 2012, 01:04 PM
The Romans had a Welfare State - they gave out corn to the millions. I hate it when Islam claims they invented stuff. They didn't!

moi every ruler, every king and every Caliphs says and thinks that they are the rulers/makers welfare state for the citizens they are/were ruling.

But I am more interested in Islamic welfare state and what it is., was it ever there any time in theory or in practice??

I would greatly appreciate any books/links on the subject "Islamic welfare state"

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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #3 - July 18, 2012, 01:21 PM

The snag is that the modern welfare state is a Western invention with the industrial revolution. Charity and philanthropy cannot cope with the scale of the issues. In Germany Kaiser Wilhelm needed to make sure his workers were fed, in Britain the condition of the troops in the Boer War was embarrassing, earlier sewers were badly needed and we had introduced universal education. LLoyd George introduced pensions.

Modern welfare states require democracies, education, industrialisation. Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were both based on free thinking industrialising societies.

I would ask how educated and industrialised is a population in relation to does it have a Welfare State. The US does have very big medicaid and medicare and pension operations.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #4 - July 18, 2012, 01:28 PM

Many Muslims delusions can be deep. Really, really deep and embedded.

'Welfare state was copied from Islam' is just a kind of reiteration of the delusion that everything is Islam, that all babies are born Muslims but made deviant by their non Muslim parents, that those who opt into Islam are 'reverts', that democracy is Islamic, that Islam was the first feminism, that everyone owes everything to Islam, that Islam is the supreme perfection of everything that ever existed before or after it, that the world is engaged in a mass conspiracy to steal, cheat and deny Islam its righteous glory.

The delusion is deep, so deep it is almost beyond parody.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #5 - July 18, 2012, 01:38 PM

Quote
almost beyond parody

hmmm....

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #6 - July 18, 2012, 01:55 PM

Quote

We always knew that Imran Khan had right-wing leanings. This image got a bit muggy after the October 30 meeting in Lahore. The youth of the country had finally found a voice with which they could resonate and march towards a liberal and modern Pakistan. Fortunately, this was not an isolated incident and this wave of modernity and hope of a better tomorrow carried on with very successful meetings in Karachi and Quetta.

After the meeting in Lahore, several politicians who have been tried and tested joined Imran Khan's party. Every Tom, Dick and Harry wanted to have a bite at the pie. Unfortunately, this has undoubtedly made Imran Khan look vulnerable. My guess is that the Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaf (PTI) will be lucky to get a few seats the way it is going as it is trying its best to alienate the same youth who were ready to die for its cause.

The latest statement from Imran Khan is, "We want to create an Islamic welfare state." I thought for a moment that the Jamaat-e-Islami or Maulana Fazlur Rehman must have said this. Does an Islamic welfare state exist anywhere in the world? There are several models of European welfare states, but not a single Islamic welfare state in over 50 Islamic countries. A welfare state is one in which the citizens have rights: the right to life, liberty, freedom, speech, religion, equal opportunities, free education, free healthcare, water, power, shelter, employment, etc. The closest model of an Islamic welfare state was the one run by the Taliban and it was a nightmare for all. Saudi Arabia is no less horrendous. I hope Imran Khan is not hoping to revive such a model. When he makes a statement, he must explain what he really means by it. The PTI must clarify these things.

And that was written by SALMAN MUNIR from Karachi on that subject of Imran Khan and his Islamic welfare state

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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #7 - July 18, 2012, 02:22 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 18, 2012, 01:55 PM
And that was written by SALMAN MUNIR from Karachi on that subject of Imran Khan and his Islamic welfare state

Good ..good That SALMAN MUNIR's letter got the ball rolling., there is a raging discussion in DAWN on that letter. Let us get some nuggets from there

Quote
An Islamic welfare state is not what is portrayed by the extremists, because every religion teaches patience and tolerance.

An Islamic welfare state is where people are given equal rights, regardless of their caste, colour or creed. Freedom of practising religion is yet another basic aspect of an Islamic welfare state. Non-Muslim communities under Muslim rule are to be protected by the Dhimmi laws, which guarantee them rights to worship and follow their religious laws.

It is the responsibility of the state to protect the life, property and honour of its citizens. An Islamic welfare state is to be run on the principles of justice and equality and be completely away from class discrimination.

Islamic economics lies on two primary goals: to combat poverty, and provide for a just and equitable distribution of wealth.

Almost all western countries have derived their structure from the principles of an Islamic welfare state. So if Imran Khan vows to make Pakistan an Islamic welfare state, what’s wrong with that? We all dream for Pakistan to become a state where justice is given priority; a place where everyone is treated equally. Why not achieve this dream through an ‘Islamic’ welfare state?

ZUHA SOHAIL
Karachi

Hmm.. Zuha need go beyond Karachi Mosques..

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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #8 - July 18, 2012, 02:30 PM

There is almost nothing more infuriating to me than when Muslims try to claim things outside the domain of religion are part of Islam.

Politics... we should look to Islam for how our politics should work. As if political systems haven't improved in 1400 years.
Science... we should look to Islam for cures and medical advice. As if science has not progressed. My fiance's sister born and bred in Canada and is reasonably educated... takes advice on the Islamic way to breastfeed...? I sit there wondering... what the hell did they know about breast feeding back then. Better still, it extends to something as simple as the Islamic way to breastfeed.

But more than that... when did Islam get tied to the welfare state. It's not just Muslims do this of course. In America to be 'black' means you should be a democract and support leftist policies. If you don't... you're somehow less black. Smart, intelligent, but conservative blacks like Thomas Sowell, Condoleeza Rice... are dismissed as not being 'black'.

Similarly, there is almost nothing in Islam to associate it with the modern welfare state. Yet somehow, Islam is tied to leftist movements.

The most frustrating part of Islam is and has always been there people think there is an 'Islamic' way to do everything... from going to the washroom, to greeting people, to sleeping, to breastfeeding, to politics...
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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #9 - July 18, 2012, 03:01 PM

Quote from: billy on July 18, 2012, 01:28 PM
Many Muslims delusions can be deep. Really, really deep and embedded.

'Welfare state was copied from Islam' is just a kind of reiteration of the delusion that everything is Islam, that all babies are born Muslims but made deviant by their non Muslim parents, that those who opt into Islam are 'reverts', that democracy is Islamic, that Islam was the first feminism, that everyone owes everything to Islam, that Islam is the supreme perfection of everything that ever existed before or after it, that the world is engaged in a mass conspiracy to steal, cheat and deny Islam its righteous glory.

The delusion is deep, so deep it is almost beyond parody.

Exactly, billy! This is delusion AND cultural imperialism gone (extra) mad! The concept of welfare state as we know today (that means not only restricted to giving corn to some peasants in the Iberian peninsula) is an (Northern) European concept and model which developed (take some notes Muslim apologists reading CEMB!) AFTER WORLD WAR No 2!

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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #10 - July 18, 2012, 03:57 PM

This Islam did it stuff also completely misses the reality that what we have now is often the result of struggle over centuries, we are truly standing on the shoulders of giants, who have built up the society, imperfect though it is but actually very impressive compared with those of the past and others around the planet.

Mary Wolstencraft, Tom Payne...

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #11 - July 18, 2012, 04:03 PM

http://www.sochealth.co.uk/national-health-service/the-sma-and-the-foundation-of-the-national-health-service-dr-leslie-hilliard-1980/aneurin-bevan-and-the-foundation-of-the-nhs/in-place-of-fear-a-free-health-service-1952/

Quote
In Place of Fear A Free Health Service 1952

This is the fifth chapter of Nye Bevan’s book of essays, published in 1952.

THE field in which the claims of individual commercialism come into most immediate conflict with reputable notions of social values is that of health. That is true both for curative and preventive medicine. The preventive health services of modern society fight the battle over a wider front and therefore less dramatically than is, the case with personal medicine.
Yet the victories won by preventive medicine are much the most important for mankind. This is so not only because it is obviously preferable to prevent suffering than to alleviate it. Preventive medicine, which is merely another way of saying health by collective action, builds up a system of social habits that constitute an indispensable part of what we mean by civilization. In this sphere values which are in essence Socialist challenge and win victory after victory against the assertions and practice of the competitive society.

Modern communities have been made tolerable by the behaviour patterns imposed upon them by the activities of the sanitary inspector and the medical officer of health. It is true, these rarely work out what they do in terms of Socialist philosophy; but that does not alter the fact that the whole significance of their contribution is its insistence that the claims of the individual shall subordinate themselves to social codes that have the collective well-being for their aim, irrespective of the extent to which this frustrates individual greed.

It is only necessary to visit backward countries, or the backward parts of even the most advanced countries, to see what happens when this insistence is overborne. There, the small well-to-do classes furnish themselves with some of the machinery of good sanitation, such as a piped water supply from their own wells, and modem drainage and cesspools. Having satisfied their own needs, they fight strenuously against finding the money to pay for a good general system that would make the same conveniences available to everyone else.

The more advanced the country, the more its citizens insist on a pure water supply, on laws against careless methods of preparing and handling food, and against the making and advertising of harmful drugs. Powerful vested interests with profits at stake compel the public authorities to fight a sustained battle against the assumption that the pursuit of individual profit is the best way to serve the general good.

The same is true in relation to contagious diseases. These are kept at bay by the constant war society is waging in the form of collective action conducted by men and women who are paid fixed salaries. Neither payment by results nor the profit motive are relevant. It would be a fanatical supporter of the competitive society who asserted that the work done in the field of preventive medicine shows the enslavement of the individual to what has come to be described in the United States as ‘statism’, and is therefore to be deplored. The more likely retort is that all these are part of the very type of society I am opposing. That is true. But they do not flow from it. They have come in spite of it. They stem from a different order of values. They have established themselves and they are still winning their way by hard struggle. In claiming them, capitalism proudly displays medals won in the battles it has lost.

When we consider the great discoveries in medicine that have revolutionized surgery and the treatment of disease, the same pattern appears. They were made by dedicated men and women whose work was inspired by values that have nothing to do with the rapacious bustle of the stock exchange: Pasteur, Simpson, Jenner, Lister, Semelweiss, Fleming, Domagk, Roentgen – the list is endless. Few of these would have described themselves as Socialists, but they can hardly be considered representative types of the competitive society.

The same story is now being unfolded in the field of curative medicine. Here individual and collective action are joined in a series of dramatic battles. The collective principle asserts that the resources of medical skill and the apparatus of healing shall be placed at the disposal of the patient, without charge, when he or she needs them; that medical treatment and care should be a communal responsibility that they should be made available to rich and poor alike in accordance with medical need and by no other criteria. It claims that financial anxiety in time of sickness is a serious hindrance to recovery, apart from its unnecessary cruelty. It insists that no society can legitimately call itself civilized if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means.

Preventable pain is a blot on any society. Much sickness and often permanent disability arise from failure to take early action, and this in its turn is due to high costs and the fear of the effects of heavy bills on the family. The records show that it is the mother in the average family who suffers most from the absence of a free health service. In trying to balance her domestic budget she puts her own needs last.

Society becomes more wholesome, more serene, and spiritually healthier, if it knows that its citizens have at the back of their consciousness the knowledge that not only themselves, but all their fellows, have access, when ill, to the best that medical skill can provide. But private charity and endowment, although inescapably essential at one time, cannot meet the cost of all this. If the job is to be done, the state must accept financial responsibility...

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #12 - July 18, 2012, 04:43 PM

Quote from: billy on July 18, 2012, 01:28 PM
Many Muslims delusions can be deep. Really, really deep and embedded.

'Welfare state was copied from Islam' is just a kind of reiteration of the delusion that everything is Islam, that all babies are born Muslims but made deviant by their non Muslim parents, that those who opt into Islam are 'reverts', that democracy is Islamic, that Islam was the first feminism, that everyone owes everything to Islam, that Islam is the supreme perfection of everything that ever existed before or after it, that the world is engaged in a mass conspiracy to steal, cheat and deny Islam its righteous glory.

The delusion is deep, so deep it is almost beyond parody.

you forgot that muslims have nothing to do with islamic teachings
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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #13 - July 18, 2012, 05:41 PM

" Islamic Welfare State" Talk about oxymoron of the year..

How can you call it a welfare state if it has sharia law. In my opinion whipping fornicators,stoning adulterers and killing apostates is not really part of looking after the well being of your citizens.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #14 - July 18, 2012, 05:48 PM

You know this Haitham Al Haddad came to Holland and told the people that Dutch female muslims, and even non-muslims, come to London to ask for being stoned to death and that's why we should have sharia courts
But this is kind of off topic, I guess...
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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #15 - July 18, 2012, 07:29 PM

Quote from: Senga on July 18, 2012, 05:48 PM
You know this Haitham Al Haddad came to Holland and told the people that Dutch female muslims, and even non-muslims, come to London to ask for being stoned to death and that's why we should have sharia courts
...............

.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwybk7B94B8

fools talk nonsense..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbkwmMJgzqU

these guys need be put in to those baboon cages inside a zoo..

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Re: Islamic Welfare State.. Pakistan.. Imran Khan
Reply #16 - July 19, 2012, 03:21 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 18, 2012, 07:29 PM
.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwybk7B94B8

fools talk nonsense..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbkwmMJgzqU

these guys need be put in to those baboon cages inside a zoo..

sorry, I couldn't watch this.. the first thing this hatefull face says is that non-muslims (aargh, I hate that word!) attack muslims. Don't need to know more. The bullshit he told the cheering muslim students (for crying out loud) here in Holland was too much for me already. Yes, they should all be put safely away.
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