quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven

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- Azdaha ExMuslim
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quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
OP - July 25, 2012, 04:02 PM

Have anyone of you ever discussed the error of quran when it says rain/water comes from heaven/sky[samaa] instead of clouds ?

Quote
2:164 Verily, in the creation of the heavens and of the earth, and the succession of night and day: and in the ships that speed through the sea with what is useful to man: and in the waters which God sends down from the sky, giving life thereby to the earth after it had, been lifeless, and causing all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon: and in the change of the winds, and the clouds that run their appointed courses between sky and earth: [in all this] there are messages indeed for people who use their reason

14:32 [And remember that] it is God who has created the heavens and the earth, and who sends down water from the sky and thereby brings forth [all manner] of fruits for your sustenance; and who has made ships subservient to. you, so that they may sail through the sea at His behest; and has made the rivers subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you;

27:60 Nay - who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you [life-giving] water from the skies? For it is by this means that We cause gardens of shining beauty to grow - [whereas] it is not in your power to cause [even one single of] its trees to grow! Could there be any divine power besides God? Nay, they [who think so] are people who swerve [from the path of reason]

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #1 - July 25, 2012, 09:50 PM

God causes the water cycle including evaporation and then the rain
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #2 - July 26, 2012, 02:43 AM

Can we basically say that God was referring to the Sky in the sense of where the rain comes from in the verse where he is mentioning separating the heavens from the earth or there is another term used there

Did god in that verse separate the sky where the rain comes from or the sky where Stars are placed
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #3 - July 26, 2012, 07:28 AM

Quote
Can we basically say that God was referring to the Sky in the sense of where the rain comes from in the verse where he is mentioning separating the heavens from the earth or there is another term used there

Did god in that verse separate the sky where the rain comes from or the sky where Stars are placed

Quran uses the word "samaa" for sky ..which is considered as first heaven among 7 heavens....in many translations "samaa" is translated as "heaven" instead of "sky"....some other verses show that "samaa" is first heaven ...and clouds are between "earth" and "samaa"

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #4 - July 26, 2012, 08:56 AM

clouds are in the sky. I dont see it as an error. At least not an obvious one.
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #5 - July 26, 2012, 09:55 AM

Quote
Quote
Azdaha ExMuslim says: Have anyone of you ever discussed the error of quran when it says rain/water comes from heaven/sky[samaa] instead of clouds ?

And dr_sloth respond with: clouds are in the sky. I dont see it as an error. At least not an obvious one.

Hmm.. Well let us read those verse again

Quote
2:164 Verily, in the creation of the heavens and of the earth, and the succession of night and day: and in the ships that speed through the sea with what is useful to man: and in the waters which God sends down from the sky, giving life thereby to the earth after it had, been lifeless, and causing all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon: and in the change of the winds, and the clouds that run their appointed courses between sky and earth: [in all this] there are messages indeed for people who use their reason

14:32 [And remember that] it is God who has created the heavens and the earth, and who sends down water from the sky and thereby brings forth [all manner] of fruits for your sustenance; and who has made ships subservient to. you, so that they may sail through the sea at His behest; and has made the rivers subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you;

27:60 Nay - who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you [life-giving] water from the skies? For it is by this means that We cause gardens of shining beauty to grow - [whereas] it is not in your power to cause [even one single of] its trees to grow! Could there be any divine power besides God? Nay, they [who think so] are people who swerve [from the path of reason]

You mean to say, Sky is equivalent to Clouds dr_sloth?? So what do we call the space which is above clouds?? ~6 to 8 Km .. and what do we call the space below the clouds .. such as above tree heights??

but you could be right., Book of bull shit can never be wrong....

What is above clouds??

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #6 - July 26, 2012, 10:03 AM

Hmm on the way let me pick up some bible verses....

Quote
"You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the LORD, have created it. ..Isaiah 45:8

Like clouds and wind without rain is a man who boasts of gifts he does not give. ...Proverbs 25:14

If clouds are full of water, they pour rain upon the earth. Whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there will it lie....Ecclesiastes 11:3

That is what happens when fools plagiarize material from other books and write some nonsense as word of allah/god...

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #7 - July 26, 2012, 10:05 AM

If i said that Milk comes from farms, you couldn't refute me by saing "actually it comes from cows'

cows are a component of farms, and clouds are a component of the sky.
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #8 - July 26, 2012, 10:08 AM

Quote from: dr_sloth on July 26, 2012, 10:05 AM
If i said that Milk comes from farms, you couldn't refute me by saing "actually it comes from cows'

cows are a component of farms, and clouds are a component of the sky.

Hmm good point.. Then smart people call such statements as parables NOT WORD OF allah/god unlike STUPID PEOPLE. and on top of it they rub it on others with warfare and silly political agenda

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #9 - July 26, 2012, 11:52 AM

Quote from: Azdaha ExMuslim on July 26, 2012, 07:28 AM
Quran uses the word "samaa" for sky ..which is considered as first heaven among 7 heavens....in many translations "samaa" is translated as "heaven" instead of "sky"....some other verses show that "samaa" is first heaven ...and clouds are between "earth" and "samaa"

Is he using the same word for Heavens in this verses and in this verse:

YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (21:30)
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #10 - July 26, 2012, 12:57 PM

Quote
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (21:30)

Yes ..its a plural "Heavens" so word used is "samawat"

Quote
21: 30 Awalam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waalarda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina almai kulla shayin hayyin afala yuminoona

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #11 - July 26, 2012, 12:59 PM

Quote from: dr_sloth on July 26, 2012, 08:56 AM
clouds are in the sky. I dont see it as an error. At least not an obvious one.

I am unable to understand that how Clouds are part of sky or in the sky ?? Sorry I am not well versed in science so explain in simple words

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #12 - July 26, 2012, 01:29 PM

Quote from: Azdaha ExMuslim on July 26, 2012, 12:57 PM
Yes ..its a plural "Heavens" so word used is "samawat"

Then Basically the BIG BANG in the Quran is a bunch of nonsense if by Heavens he is referring to the Skies as where the rain comes from.

I would freely assume that in this verse " 27:60 Nay - who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you [life-giving] water from the skies? For it is by this means that We cause gardens of shining beauty to grow - [whereas] it is not in your power to cause [even one single of] its trees to grow! Could there be any divine power besides God? Nay, they [who think so] are people who swerve [from the path of reason]" the word SKIES is used in the same form as in verse 21:30.

Even though the concept of Separating the Heavens from the Earth does not by any means have anything to do with the Big Bang.
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #13 - July 26, 2012, 02:01 PM

i dont understand what the problem is. You think clouds are too low to be considered in the sky?
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #14 - July 26, 2012, 02:40 PM

Quote from: dr_sloth on July 26, 2012, 02:01 PM
i dont understand what the problem is. You think clouds are too low to be considered in the sky?

the word "SKY" is a big word in religious theology and it goes all the way to the empty space between interstellar celestial objects and to some uneducated nomads it could also mean clouds are there in sky ..

these silly singing/rhyming words from religious books(QURAN IS WORST OF ALL) such as

"Rain falls from sky
liquid comes out of he ribs
cows go home
Shepherd runs around sheep "

can not be words of allah/god, neither there is any philosophical guidance to humanity from these silly songs..,

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #15 - July 26, 2012, 04:34 PM

I just wonder if it is beneficial to engage in these types of discussions. People get lost.

Yes, a rational person can come up with an explanation for every metaphor in the Koran to show it is scientifically correct... just as easily as we can show it is incorrect. Lord knows arabic words can just about mean anything it seems. I remember once Irshad Manji was on TV talking about heaven and how some world like hooris doesn't mean we get virgins in heaven... but grapes or something like that. Then they debated that for like 10 minutes with no real insights anyways.

In my view, it is more productive to focus on the big things. The Koran is not an eternal guide for mankind and the sunnah are not a good example because it has things like sex with children, sex with slaves... You can dismiss those as 'those were the old days', but then the koran is not eternal and the sunnah are not to be followed today.
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #16 - July 26, 2012, 04:56 PM

@ scamper_22:

I think u actually have a good point but I also think we should focus on this Scientific Miracle claims, many people fall for these stuff believe me, I know hundreds who do and show off How Islam is superior because it contains science in it, science which is known now but then couldn't have been known thus this book is from god.
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #17 - July 26, 2012, 05:19 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on July 26, 2012, 04:56 PM
@ scamper_22:
I think u actually have a good point but I also think we should focus on this Scientific Miracle claims, many people fall for these stuff believe me, I know hundreds who do and show off How Islam is superior because it contains science in it, science which is known now but then couldn't have been known thus this book is from god.

Maybe, but I doubt you'd be able to convince them of things that can be made vague enough to be made 'right'.
I have pretty lively debates with my mother who is quite a smart person but still holds islam dear. We don't fight per se, but just discuss.

Through our talks, she no longer calls herself a sunni muslims... just prefers to call herself a muslim... as she learned she doesn't agree with the sunnah and thinks it is from 'those days'. Thats good enough for me for us to have a good relationship.

Even her, though, she still thinks the koran has some miracles of science. If I bring up anything, she goes through her old islamic books and explains the metaphor. And it really becomes a matter of he said/she said. My point is... I doubt you'd be able to prove any of the scientific miracles wrong to someone who is willing to believe... because everything is so vague in the koran and arabic words can mean anything. If they're able to fall for it, they probably won't be convinced by your rational argument.

Just to give an example, here is the typical koranic scientific mumbo jumbo.
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

Quote

In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man’s embryonic development:

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... 1 (Quran, 23:12-14)

This is then expanded into pages of real science to show how this simply verse and vague words actually match reality. Of course its just a vague verse with no meaning. I mean... how are we created from an extract of clay? But like I said... I don't think you'll be able to rationalize someone out of it.

Better to tug at the morality written on the heart... which is quite easy to show how orthodox islam is simply a horrible horrible way to live.
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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #18 - July 26, 2012, 08:05 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on July 26, 2012, 01:29 PM
Then Basically the BIG BANG in the Quran is a bunch of nonsense if by Heavens he is referring to the Skies as where the rain comes from.

I would freely assume that in this verse " 27:60 Nay - who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you [life-giving] water from the skies? For it is by this means that We cause gardens of shining beauty to grow - [whereas] it is not in your power to cause [even one single of] its trees to grow! Could there be any divine power besides God? Nay, they [who think so] are people who swerve [from the path of reason]" the word SKIES is used in the same form as in verse 21:30.

Even though the concept of Separating the Heavens from the Earth does not by any means have anything to do with the Big Bang.

yes....quran use the word "samaa" which sometimes translated as sky or sometimes as heaven ...although heaven is more appropriate and used at many places as heaven......and quran clearly says that "samaa" is a solid protected ceiling and its pieces can fall

21:32 And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away.

34:9 See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).

50:6 Have they not looked at the heaven above them - how We structured it and adorned it and [how] it has no rifts?

And quran claims that clouds run between earth and sky

2:164 Verily, in the creation of the heavens and of the earth, and the succession of night and day: and in the ships that speed through the sea with what is useful to man: and in the waters which God sends down from the sky, giving life thereby to the earth after it had, been lifeless, and causing all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon: and in the change of the winds, and the clouds that run their appointed courses between sky and earth: [in all this] there are messages indeed for people who use their reason.

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #19 - July 26, 2012, 08:52 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_1KG1exaKQ

Although he is a good guy, well educated preaches Islam in west but tals nonsense when it comes to Quran & Muhammad.. similar to that RAIN From heavens...

fools like those are the reason why Islam/Quran and the Muslim communities are stagnated and tries to in 7th century Islam..

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Re: quran scientific error: rain/water comes from heaven
Reply #20 - July 27, 2012, 06:41 AM

The quran just plain isnt very well written.
Obviously he knew that clouds bring rain, as even Muukmuuk the Caveman knew that.

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