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Theme Changer

 Topic: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris

 (Read 8525 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     OP - August 07, 2012, 10:48 PM

    An interesting piece from Sam Harris:

    * * *

    Wrestling the Troll

    The Internet powerfully enables the spread of good ideas, but it works the same magic for bad ones—and it allows distortions of fact and opinion to become permanent features of our intellectual landscape. Consequently, the migration of our cultural discourse into cyberspace can injure a person’s reputation in ways that may be impossible to remedy.

    Anyone familiar with my work knows that I have not shied away from controversy and that many of my views defy easy summary. However, I continue to learn the hard way that if an issue is controversial, and my position cannot be reduced to a simple sentence, my critics will do the work of simplification for me. Topics like torture, recreational drug use, and wealth inequality can provoke outrage and misunderstanding in many audiences. But discussing them online sets your reputation wandering like a child across a battlefield—perpetually. Anything can and will be said at your expense—or falsely attributed to you—today, tomorrow, and years hence. Needless to say, the urge to respond to this malevolence and obfuscation can become irresistible.

    The problem, however, is that there is no effective way to respond. Here is a glimpse of what it is like for me to sit at my desk, attempting to write my next book, while persistent and misleading attacks on my work continue to surface on the Internet.

    * * *

    I receive a stream of emails demanding to know why I continue to ignore Theodore Sayeed’s demolition of me on the website Mondoweiss. The answer: I’ve never heard of Theodore Sayeed or Mondoweiss. A subsequent glance at his article reveals misrepresentations of my views and tendentious maneuvers that seem to have been made in very bad faith. Engaging with this sort of thing only gives it greater currency—or so I like to believe, given that I have no time to engage with it. Strangely, my commitment to safeguarding my time doesn’t stop me from spending half an hour writing personal emails to a handful of readers explaining why I think a response to Sayeed is beneath me.

    * * *

    Another flurry of emails arrives alerting me to a very personal and misleading attack on me (along with a few friends and colleagues) now lighting up Alternet—a website that has distorted my views in the past. Many readers want to know when they can expect my response to “The 5 Most Awful Atheists.” I read this poisonous and inane concoction written by a deeply unserious person who has made no effort to understand my arguments, and I decide that the best thing to do is to forget all about it.

    Predictably, this article refers to the fact that I have discussed the ethics of torture in the past—and it does so in order to brand me as a moral lunatic. From reading this piece, and hundreds like it, one would never imagine that my position on torture is more or less identical to the one prescribed in that handbook of evil, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. (Read the entry on torture there, especially the section entitled “The Beating,” and then tell me that being categorically “against torture” is a morally uncomplicated stance to adopt.)

    However, I then hear that the article has been gleefully endorsed by that shepherd of Internet trolls PZ Myers, amplifying its effect. Soon thereafter it appears on Salon, under the slightly more restrained title “5 Atheists who ruin it for everyone else.” Will I now respond? The temptation is growing. But I have 5,991 unread emails in my inbox and a book to write...

    More: www.samharris.org

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #1 - August 07, 2012, 10:56 PM

    u cant

    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #2 - August 07, 2012, 11:11 PM

    Sam Harris wrote an article entitled 'In Defense of Torture', in which he says:

    Quote
    I am one of the few people I know of who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror.


    Someone please explain to me how that can be misinterpreted.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #3 - August 07, 2012, 11:20 PM

    Seems like a stock philosophical thought experiment to me. Nothing new or controversial.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #4 - August 07, 2012, 11:23 PM

    Well, he seems to be chickening his way out of it, instead of perhaps admitting that he was wrong.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #5 - August 07, 2012, 11:29 PM

    I think he's got a point. The typical argumentation against torture is one of utility, effectiveness, slippery-slope fallacy, etc. That doesn't resolve the underlying ethical dilemma he presents. I say 'he presents', but philosophers have been wrestling with similar ethical dilemmas for centuries, not often labeled as monsters for simply entertaining the idea. In my eyes, most of the criticism leveled at him is just thought-terminating tripe.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #6 - August 07, 2012, 11:42 PM

    Just because something increases utility doesn't mean it can't be considered evil. Many people are opposed to utilitarianism on the principle that it can lead to heinous acts on individuals in pursuit of the "greater good". Maybe instead of pulling the "misunderstood" card, Sam Harris needs to see where his opponents are coming from.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #7 - August 07, 2012, 11:53 PM

    But he acknowledges that making torture legal is unacceptable. That the consequences are too terrible. And is even cautious when he says it would be justified in the case of imminent nuclear terrorism.

    It seems to me that his main critics are indeed misunderstanding him. To the point where I'm not even convinced many of them have actually read what he has written. It seems to me that he understands perfectly well where his opponents are coming from and is simply baffled as to how they have managed to arrive at such wild conclusions or take him so far out of context.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #8 - August 08, 2012, 12:35 AM

    well  Children should sit together  have a coffee an talk to each other instead of writing blogs over blogs..

    it started with this picture



    and an article by  Sam harris


    Quote
    While leaving JFK last week, I found myself standing in line behind an elderly couple who couldn’t have been less threatening had they been already dead and boarding in their coffins. I would have bet my life that they were not waging jihad. Both appeared to be in their mid-eighties and infirm. The woman rode in a wheelchair attended by an airport employee as her husband struggled to comply with TSA regulations—removing various items from their luggage, arranging them in separate bins, and loading the bins and bags onto the conveyor belt bound for x-ray.


    The problem in not profiling but FUCKING IDIOTS working at airport as security personal.. security team whatever

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZH2Y0f-7M

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwvcpS5iLjI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_D6KIvhIKk


    look at these Fucking Bastards.. That is security at airport..And these ROGUES wants bail outs hand outs from American Tax payers..  Fuck Flying .. take Chinese Buses to travel in US of Ass hole airports..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rouOrvftI4c

    THANKS BRUTAL ROGUES IN ISLAM & BROTHELHOOD

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhVxk4aGuFM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maELQn79t84

     ( NOT THE LAST TWO VIDEOS ..lol..)

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #9 - August 08, 2012, 12:47 AM

    But he acknowledges that making torture legal is unacceptable. That the consequences are too terrible. And is even cautious when he says it would be justified in the case of imminent nuclear terrorism.

    It seems to me that his main critics are indeed misunderstanding him. To the point where I'm not even convinced many of them have actually read what he has written. It seems to me that he understands perfectly well where his opponents are coming from and is simply baffled as to how they have managed to arrive at such wild conclusions or take him so far out of context.

    The thing about the ticking time-bomb scenario is that it sets a dangerous precedent if it were used to justify torture. Even if you did have a bomb that's about to blow off, even if you did have a main suspect, how do you know that the person you have is definitely guilty? In effect, that person would be guilty until proven innocent. And using the situation to torture someone implies that it's okay to suspend the law in certain circumstances.

    Sam Harris' intention might not be to normalize torture, but that could very well be the result of his position if it were to be put in practice. Even though his goal is not evil, as the proverb goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    In his defense, calling him evil is just an ad hom, and I'm sure some of his critics have called him that without addressing his points. But regardless, his position is a very dangerous one, especially at a time when torture is already being normalized.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #10 - August 08, 2012, 12:51 AM

     the proverb goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
     

    There are ways to clean the roads and go in proper direction so the road Doesn't lead to hell.,

    If we make rules and  stagnate them for all seasons and times  like Americans did/(doing even now)during Bush era  or Islam did during Caliph times  .. well.,  the road will lead to hell..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #11 - August 08, 2012, 05:44 AM

    The thing about the ticking time-bomb scenario is that it sets a dangerous precedent if it were used to justify torture. Even if you did have a bomb that's about to blow off, even if you did have a main suspect, how do you know that the person you have is definitely guilty? In effect, that person would be guilty until proven innocent. And using the situation to torture someone implies that it's okay to suspend the law in certain circumstances.

    Sam Harris' intention might not be to normalize torture, but that could very well be the result of his position if it were to be put in practice. Even though his goal is not evil, as the proverb goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    In his defense, calling him evil is just an ad hom, and I'm sure some of his critics have called him that without addressing his points. But regardless, his position is a very dangerous one, especially at a time when torture is already being normalized.

    I, like Sam Harris, am not satisfied with the arguments opposed to the idea of torturing in certain extreme (and extremely unlikely) scenarios. The imminent nuclear threat or world-ending event, for example. The arguments don't sufficiently refute the soundness of the logic, or don't tackle the logic at all and merely dance around it pretending to deal with it.

    While, superficially, the logic might make me uncomfortable, I cannot sincerely say that I am sure he is completely wrong. And in absence of a sufficient argument from anyone else, and despite my own initial misgivings, I have to admit, at least to myself, that he might have a point. I have to at least concede that there is moral ambiguity and grey area. There are indeed instances where the physical perishing of one individual is preferable to the physical perishing of many. Sure, you can keep adding extra context until it becomes a totally different question, but it is just that: a different question. Requiring a different answer.

    Like you say here, it might set a dangerous precedent. A dangerous precedent to whom? To the unwashed and uneducated masses? People who are not as smart as you or I? That isn't enough. That just leaves me wanting. Leaves me cold. Leaves me unsatisfied. That argument, at best, amounts to "Sam Harris is wrong, because other people are stupid and might get the wrong impression." I cannot accept that as "Sam Harris is wrong".

    That said, this is all largely besides the point. Sam Harris is not lobbying the government to install routine torture. He is not drumming up support for real-time instances of torture. He is not giving his consent to the powers that be to employ unethical interrogation methods. Nothing he has said justifies torture as we understand it in real-world context. He is not excusing it or normalising it. Routine torture remains ethically indefensible. Guantanamo remains ethically indefensible. And so on.

    Sam Harris is not morally reprehensible for simply putting the question out there or for exploring that grey area - a grey area that any intellectually honest thinker must admit exists.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #12 - August 08, 2012, 07:28 AM

    Pharyngula is a "shepherd of Internet trolls" now? Really?

    Yeez: Sam Harris had at least the good grace to allow himself to be out-argued (although he denies it) on the subject of security in his own blog by someone whose work on the mechanics of security is taken rather more seriously:

    Quote
    (Bruce Schneier):  Let’s quickly review.  The topic of this exchange, and the topic I’ve tried to stick to, is whether it makes sense to implement a two-tiered security system at airports, where “Muslims, or anyone who could conceivably be Muslim” get a higher tier of security and everyone else gets a lower tier.  I have concluded that it does not, for the following reasons.  One, the only benefit is efficiency.  Two, the result is lower security because 1) not all Muslims can be identified by appearance, 2) screeners will make mistakes in implementing whatever profiling system you have in mind, and 3) not all terrorists are Muslim.  Three, there are substantial monetary costs in implementing this system, in setting the system up, in administering it across all airports, and in paying for TSA screeners who can implement it.  And four, there is an inefficiency in operating the system that isn’t there if screeners treat everyone the same way.  Conclusion: airport profiling based on this ethnic and religious characteristic does not make sense.

  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #13 - August 08, 2012, 07:53 AM

    Like you say here, it might set a dangerous precedent. A dangerous precedent to whom? To the unwashed and uneducated masses? People who are not as smart as you or I?

    No. I meant 'precedent' in the judicial sense.

    The problem is that you and Sam Harris are looking at the issue from a purely theoretical point of view. It's as if we live in a perfect world and we're pretty certain that the government isn't going to abuse the power we give it if we give it the ability to torture. And this is besides the fact that it's quite impossible to determine someone's guilt before putting them on trial.

    No, I'm not going to accept the torture of anyone, the use of "guilty until proven innocent". Not once, not ever. That is morally reprehensible. No exceptions. At all. We have due process precisely for the people we suspect are guilty.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #14 - August 08, 2012, 08:05 AM

    The problem is that you and Sam Harris are looking at the issue from a purely theoretical point of view.

    Well, yeah, that's what I just said. But one cannot then say that a person entertaining a thought in theory or abstract in some extreme and unlikely hypothetical scenario is also literally advocating a specific real world example that is incomparable.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #15 - August 08, 2012, 08:13 AM

    You might be "entertaining a thought in theory." He's not.

    You can speak about whatever issue you want with your philosopher friends, but when you go and write about it in a mass publication, you're giving the government justifications to act on your mind games.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #16 - August 08, 2012, 08:26 AM

    Nonsense. If you ever became famous, you'd tell people to go fuck themselves if they ever told you to curb your opinion. What the government does is the responsibility of the government, not the responsibility of some author or blogger.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #17 - August 08, 2012, 08:44 AM

    The difference between Sam Harris and I is that I don't approach philosophy from a theoretical perspective. As a matter of fact, I hate thought experiments and think they're a useless philosophical tool, precisely because they're not applicable to real life situations.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #18 - August 08, 2012, 11:37 AM

    Pharyngula is a "shepherd of Internet trolls" now? Really?

    Yeez: Sam Harris had at least the good grace to allow himself to be out-argued on the subject of security in his own blog by someone whose work on the mechanics of security is taken rather more seriously:

    Theodore Sayeed is Keyser Söze.

    Hmm blog.. blog

    well at that blog there with  SH and BS discussing that are useless to me.. JUST FOR THAT discussion I consider SH as shit ham and BS as BULL SHIT   because they are not trying to understand  each other point but they want to win the argument .. Both  sides appears to have some valid points  under CERTAIN CONDITIONS.. My problem is not these two guys but RASCALS AT THE AIRPORTS working for security..  And I put those tubes for the readers to judge themselves. And My problem with these guys like SH & BS is instead talking nonsense on web trying win over each other.  They should go and  contest  the elections in US of A....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #19 - August 08, 2012, 12:02 PM

    The difference between Sam Harris and I is that I don't approach philosophy from a theoretical perspective. As a matter of fact, I hate thought experiments and think they're a useless philosophical tool, precisely because they're not applicable to real life situations.


    Well If you ask me that is the opposite of what Harris does most of the time - not always (I disagree with him on some issues). But he use empirical and practical approach - philosophically. Its not all theoretical.

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #20 - August 08, 2012, 02:33 PM

    That's not what I'm talking about, though. My point is that his ideals neglect reality.

    For example, he argues that we can deduce morality by collecting data about what results in the most happiness, and basing the law on that. And in such a way, he thinks that we can argue in support of banning the niqab.

    Even if we were to take his definition of morality as a given, even if we were to accept that banning the niqab does indeed lead to an increase in overall happiness and therefore to a more moral society, we'd still be faced with the issue of how a government can become corrupt by giving it the power to legislate such morality. We'd be entrusting it with the tools of control.

    Sam Harris does not acknowledge power relationships. His philosophy is based on a world he conjured up that fits his own ideals. He does not take into account how giving governments the authority to do what he'd like them to do could lead to great injustices. That's what I mean by "theoretical". His ideals might sound good in theory, but in practice they are dangerous.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #21 - August 08, 2012, 04:50 PM

    The difference between Sam Harris and I is that I don't approach philosophy from a theoretical perspective. As a matter of fact, I hate thought experiments and think they're a useless philosophical tool, precisely because they're not applicable to real life situations.

    What do you mean? It seems odd to limit oneself to only one approach. I don't know how that would play out across the limitless bounds of philosophy as a whole.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #22 - August 08, 2012, 05:40 PM

    I don't limit myself to only one approach. On the contrary, I think thought experiments limit our ability to think about specific situations. They take specific hypotheticals with too many controlled variables, too many "ifs", and attempt to draw a general ethical rule from them.

    Let me break down the scenario.

    If:
    1. there was a ticking time-bomb;
    2. there was a suspect we can capture;
    3. we're absolutely, definitely, without the shadow of a doubt certain that that suspect has the information we need;
    4. we're absolutely, definitely, without the shadow of a doubt certain that the government is not going to use torture in that situation as a precedent;
    5. there was absolutely no other way of diffusing the bomb...

    Then sure, let's torture that suspect and save hundreds of lives.

    The problem is that most of those premises cannot be met in real life. The question is nothing but a removed from reality, too theoretical defense of torture. It's mental masturbation.

    1. We can never prove that anyone has any information (and a torture victim can easily make up anything to be let go).
    2. We can never prove that the government is not corrupt and not going to use that as a precedent.
    3. There probably are other ways to diffuse the bomb.

    Therefore, realistically, torture is not permissible.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #23 - August 08, 2012, 05:43 PM

    That's not what I'm talking about, though. My point is that his ideals neglect reality.



    I beg to differ - again. How does he neglect reality? Be more concrete - thanks!

    Let us stick to his debate with Schneier on "racial profiling" (I agree with Schneier). But what Harris is doing is to calling out the elephant in the room. The overwhelming terrorism and terror attacks globally are Islamic-motivated. The overwhelming terrorists are also Muslims. In the same time many of the victims of Islamic terrorism are (http://csc.asu.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf/csc1202-quran-verses.pdf ) other Muslims....and Muslims are 38 times more likely to be killed by Al Qaeda or their allies than any other group.

    Harris is sticking to empirical data (ergo the reality) and his arguments are based on that. You can disagree with his understanding of reality - but to say he is neglecting reality is wrong - if you ask me.

    When it comes to niqab to make it short: We can argue for a niqab ban.

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #24 - August 08, 2012, 05:50 PM

    Sam Harris does not take into account power relationships. He does not take into account corruption. He does not take into account the fact that if we give power to a government, it can abuse that power. I don't know how to be any more concrete. If we controlled those variables, then maybe I would agree with him (actually, I don't, but that's irrelevant right now), but those variables are not controllable in real life. Read my post above.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #25 - August 08, 2012, 05:54 PM

    I don't limit myself to only one approach. On the contrary, I think thought experiments limit our ability to think about specific situations. They take specific hypotheticals with too many controlled variables, too many "ifs", and attempt to draw a general ethical rule from them.

    I disagree. I think they are quite useful to establish a bedrock. In an age where so many left-leaning academics are so willing to castrate the entire discussion with their moral relativism and non-argument, I think they can be a useful way to hold the chicanery and moralising in check. Or useful even if it's to watch them squirm with cognitive dissonance.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #26 - August 08, 2012, 05:56 PM

    Abood:

    I see your arguments. I agree with you on that he should have touched on power-relations much more in his writings about these subjects (torture, racial profiling, niqab etc). But one question: Is the fear of corruption (or more relevant: abuse) a good reason not to practice racial-profiling/ or say torture is morally acceptable (sometimes) or to ban the niqab?

    I think there is also a misconception out there - that being an ethnic/religious/ minority automatically means inferiority (power-relations). But does it have to be right - in reality?

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #27 - August 09, 2012, 04:41 PM

    So let me see if I have this right

    a) Chap called Sam Harris conjures up a scenario of 'ifs' where ethically/morally torture maybe given the green light.

    b) Abood thinks this might lead to government adopting torture as a last resort - free of the ethical/moral dilemmas.

    Are we talking Arab or American governments. Surely the American govt. don't need Sam Harris. They do what they do now - torture them off shore like Guantanemo Bay or rendition to countries that do torture.

    If the suspect is on American soil and you need answers quickly (how quickly? - if there is little time he can withstand the torture, they say KSM lasted many attempts at waterboarding before he gave in/up) I am sure they can carry out torture at an embassy of a foreign nation or have one of those containers and declare that 'international' rather than American soil.

    You see I am sure when watching a programme about torture/rendition they did declare the space in the container under different jurisdiction than the surrounding country!

    Or is the debate that Sam Harris should not be thinking at all along these lines? You can't stop people thinking, but thinking freely can lead you into troubling situations.

    I suppose it's free thinking - say consenting adults - that leads to scenarios that give green light to a brother and sister leading the life of lovers without reproach. Parents/siblings come to that.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #28 - August 09, 2012, 06:58 PM

    I disagree. I think they are quite useful to establish a bedrock. In an age where so many left-leaning academics are so willing to castrate the entire discussion with their moral relativism and non-argument, I think they can be a useful way to hold the chicanery and moralising in check. Or useful even if it's to watch them squirm with cognitive dissonance.


    ^^^^  This is very refreshing ! The funny thing is any form of dissent  is seen as coming from the other extreme. It's either right or left ,the center seems to have vanished.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Wrestling the Troll: Sam Harris
     Reply #29 - August 10, 2012, 11:49 AM

    Is Sam Harris the troll in the OP title?

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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