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Theme Changer

 Topic: Scientific miracles: source of possibility

 (Read 3375 times)
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  • Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     OP - August 23, 2012, 07:35 PM

    I am planning to collect possible sources for the scientific facts mentioned in Quran. The purpose of this is not to analyze whether the scientific fact is accurate or not, but to point the possible sources or how it was known 1400yrs ago. In comment please give sources for the following two miracle claims

    1) Big bang [heavens separating from earth]
    2) Moon has reflected light

    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #1 - August 23, 2012, 08:37 PM

    Do you mean you want verses in the qur’an that allude to these topics?

    I’d be more interested in knowing how muslims twisted interpreted their scriptures when people used to believe the steady state theory of the universe…
  • Re: Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #2 - August 23, 2012, 09:27 PM

    If you mean quotes from Aristotle and other pre-Islamic people saying the same scientific facts claimed to be in the Quran, that's usually not a good approach to be honest. We shouldn't even accept that the Quran contains the alleged correct statements such as moon reflects light. Those claims are based on fanciful interpretations and translations. A lot of Muslims like to think that skeptics of the "scientific miracles" think "Muhammad just so happened to know about all these correct facts from the Greeks etc." There are some skeptics who make such an argument but they tend to be unfamiliar with the Quran and just accept what the Muslim says at face value when they claim that the Quran knows about the spherical shape of the earth etc.

    Where it can be useful to point out earlier people with the same ideas as in the Quran is where they make the same error e.g. your first example where earth & sky were separated, that the moon is a source of light (not reflects), geocentric, flat earth ideas, embryo formed from semen etc.
  • Re: Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #3 - August 23, 2012, 10:41 PM

    I agree with nj7 to some extent. To look for the source of this nonsense is to tacitly accept that the nonsense is sufficiently impressive so as to be worth looking for a possible source. It isnt really worth it, because there isnt anything impressive in the quran.

    However, there are at least 2 reasons why it could be a good approach.

    1. forcing the muslim to face the logical conclusion of his argument: that Aristotle (for example) must therefore be a prophet.

    2. to show that the words and concepts similar to those in the quran have throughout history, been used to reference something utterly unscientific. For example, we could show that the quranic verse allegedly referring to the big bang, can very easily be understood in the context of pre Islamic creation myths where the sky (often a physical dome) was seperated from the (flat) earth and raised up to become 'the blue bit at the top'.

    Egyptian
    Ra seperated the eath from sky by placing the air god Shu between the sky god Nut, and the earth god Geb.

    Greek
    The earth (Gaia) gives birth to the sky (Uranus)


    Babylonian
    Marduk splits the corpse of Tiamat into two parts. the heavens and the earth.

    Indian
    Brahma is born in an egg, A year later, he splits the egg into two halves which become the heaven and earth

    Chinese
    Pan Gu is hatched from a cosmic egg. Half the shell is above him as the sky, the other half below him as the earth


    Norse
    Odin and his brothers kill Ymir. they split his body and making the earth from his flesh, and the heavens from his skull.


    Maori
    "It is by the strength of Tane that the sky and Earth were separated, and Light was born."

    Sumerian
    "After heaven had been moved away from earth,
    After earth had been separated from heaven,
    After the name of man had been fixed;"



    As for the moon being reflected light, I think Hassan had a video explaining that it simply does not say that.
    But to answer the actual question, the Greeks knew it anyway. They understood what an eclipse was. This requires knowledge that the moon reflects the sun's light

    from wiki: "The ancient Greek philosopher Anaxagoras (d. 428 BC) reasoned that the Sun and Moon were both giant spherical rocks, and that the latter reflected the light of the former.[117][118] Although the Chinese of the Han Dynasty believed the Moon to be energy equated to qi, their 'radiating influence' theory also recognized that the light of the Moon was merely a reflection of the Sun,"
  • Re: Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #4 - August 24, 2012, 05:08 PM

    yeah i know what you guys are trying to say .... but my point is not to agree or disagree with "whatever fact" is mentioned in quran...my aim is to debunk that they are "miraculous" as nobody knew that.......

    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #5 - September 06, 2012, 09:22 AM

    'lamusiuna' heavens, and 'dahaha' earth
    Isaiah 44:24  Young's Literal Translation.   and  Psalm 104:2. lots of translations

    "Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: 'I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth -- who is with Me?"

    "Covering himself with light as a garment, Stretching out the heavens as a curtain,"

    Internal waves
    Zachariah 10:11, most translations:

    "And he will pass through the sea of affliction, and will smite the waves in the sea"


    Darkness at bottom of sea
    Psalm 88:6

    Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps


    function of the cerebellum
    Jeremiah 3:3

    "and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed."

  • Re: Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #6 - September 06, 2012, 10:04 AM

    I’d be more interested in knowing how muslims twisted interpreted their scriptures when people used to believe the steady state theory of the universe…

    I've wondered this too. I've always been a little curious as to the language and words used in translations and how those translations reflect their respective era's scientific knowledge base.

    Not curious enough to be bothered to research it, though.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #7 - September 06, 2012, 10:59 AM

    ^ Ditto. It tends to be an idle thought that crops up when people bang on about science in the qur’an.
  • Re: Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #8 - September 06, 2012, 01:54 PM

    There is a fundamental flaw in Muslims trying to claim the the Koran contains scientific miracles, and that is that whatever scientific knowledge that is suposedly in the koran, the scientific knowledge developed by humans far surpasses it.

    If you took a scientist in any field at any university today and put them on a 2 year course in classical Arabic. He/she could write a far more scientifically accurate and scientifically useful guide to the universe in Classical Arabic, it could contain useful information about how to treat infectious diseases, how to treat water to make it safe for drinking, how to vaccinate against polio, how to refrigerate food, how to mechanize agriculture and prevent starvation, how to build an aeroplane to travel across the planet in 24 hours, how to set up the internet to allow communication across the entire globe, how to build a spaceship to send humans to the moon, etc. None of this information is contained in the Koran, in fact Allah did not give one single piece of useful scientific information to humans in the Koran at all. Even the stuff about using camel's urine and cumin seeds to treat illness is in the Hadiths, not the Koran.
  • Re: Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #9 - September 06, 2012, 01:58 PM

    It is also a tacit admission that science is better than religion.
    they should be proving science by whether or not it agrees with the quran, not the other way around, and  some of the hardcore do.
  • Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #10 - December 22, 2012, 02:16 PM

    Is the idea that the human population descends from a single couple (such as Adam and Eve) common in other creation myths? My guess is that it would be
  • Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #11 - April 12, 2013, 06:44 PM

    barrier between fresh and salt water:

    from the  s thompson's creation myth index

    A1063.2.  Sea water mixes with fresh water at end of the world. Jewish: Moreno Esdras (M307.8

  • Scientific miracles: source of possibility
     Reply #12 - April 12, 2013, 06:57 PM

    A1263.1.1.  Man created from blood-clot. Chatham Is., Samoan, Melanesian: Dixon 30; Admiralty Is., Polynesian, Indonesian, Melanesian, New Britain: *ibid. 109 n. 17.
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