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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam: the untold story

 (Read 25143 times)
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  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #120 - September 03, 2012, 10:37 AM

    This is actually quite major. I can't remember the last time a mainstream TV channel broadcast a programme so unapologetic in debunking the central premise of Islam, and asserting the man made quality of it. The cat is out of the bag.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #121 - September 03, 2012, 12:19 PM

    .......................

    'Tom Holland offers no proof. We have proof. It's there in black and white in the Koran and the hadith. How very dare you

    well one would expect that type of reaction from baboons as we see in those tubes  but I am looking for thoughtful responses form well educated Muslims who don't use emotion to respond to critics of Islam. but so far I have not come across any one ..   So search goes on....

    So this Sunna forum.com says something about Tom Holland's Story of Islam..

    Quote
    Taken from  Shaykh Monawwar's Facebook...

    A documentary called “Islam: an Untold Story” was broadcasted yesterday on UK’s Channel 4 (mainstream television) at 9 pm in which the historian Tom Holland presented his poor study on the origins of Islam, the Quran and the historical existence of our Prophet Muhammad (May Allah give him peace and blessings). This documentary reflects how poor our broadcasting channels have become to have allowed such a flawed programme and how un-academic some Western historians really are.

    Holland interviewed one Muslim academic, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, who is not a historian but merely a philosopher (his words were also edited), several non-Muslim academics and played it quite well with interviews showing with Bedouins (!) in the deserts of Jordan about the origins of Islam! He ignored the value and objectivity of the Muslim Isnad system and oral tradition in early Islam, early documented evidence to the existence of Prophet Muhammad (May Allah give him peace and blessings) and several other crucial points about the origins of Islam. Newspaper reviews have literally “ripped” his documentary apart showing how unreal and un-academic his whole study is. Some Muslims have also written valuable critiques in response to this.

    I do not intend to present a critique here but instead would like to present one particular aspect that is very important for the average Muslim to recognise and ultimately accept, as a religious duty, and that is:

    Quote
    From an Islamic perspective, it is unlawful for the “average Muslim layman” to watch and listen to such biased and nuanced documentaries as they raise several doubts and objections about the core of Islamic belief and Muslim identity that make one a Muslim. Iman is having firm certainty in Allah and the Noble Prophet upon him peace and blessings and everything he brought. Programmes of this kind target one’s iman, lead to deep confusion, and creep serious doubts into one’s head that waver the mind.

    So, please, to all of you who send around text messages to friends to view such programmes; be careful in the future about advertising something that may affect the belief of another Muslim and ALWAYS read the synopsis of the program FIRST!


    ..........................
    PLEASE SHARE this post of mine as you may be SAVING someone’s Iman today or tomorrow…

    See a good example of a Non-Muslim reviewer who considers this study to be poor:


    So that Shaykh says .." Don't watch the programs .. Don't hear.. don't watch and don't talk anything that is not there in Quran and Hadith "  

    Well let us see that that Shaykh Monawwar

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxdFH-34ovo


    Hmm.,   he doesn't sound like an angry guy but he  also turned out to be another Baboon who run in circles  in naked with "Book says So".. Book says so".. ..  In essence He says in that tube

    To purify the inner diseases of humanity  prophet Muhammad and his early followers takes the sword.. take the women and takes the lives of infidels..  ..

    that is the wisdom our  Shaykh Monawwar gets out of quran and  there goes Shaykh Monawwar down  that tube..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #122 - September 03, 2012, 12:24 PM


    He should be allowed to make a follow up documentary dealing with the 'infallible' isnad system to take the hadith apart - imagine the furore after that one.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #123 - September 03, 2012, 01:49 PM

    ^ That is actually what Tom Holland, rather piss–takingly, said on Twitter: that those who complained he didn’t cover the Ahadith should write to Channel 4 and ask them to greenlight him a second documentary!
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #124 - September 03, 2012, 08:06 PM

    Maybe iERA will really apologise and redo their commentary:
    Tom Holland ‏@holland_tom
    @hafizur_rahman @HATzortzis Yes, but as a gesture of good will, I'm sure he wldn't mind correcting his misrepresntations of my script 1st

    Hamza A. Tzortzis ‏@HATzortzis
    @holland_tom I'm in the process of doing that. Send me an email, we're planning the discussion to be held at a prestigious university.

    Hamza is on his knees begging for a live discussion so he can pull his rhetoric and save his behind.

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #125 - September 04, 2012, 08:40 AM

    I have attached the script to the programme for anyone who has not been able to watch it.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #126 - September 04, 2012, 09:28 AM

    Maybe iERA will really apologise and redo their commentary:
    Tom Holland ‏@holland_tom
    @hafizur_rahman @HATzortzis Yes, but as a gesture of good will, I'm sure he wldn't mind correcting his misrepresntations of my script 1st

    Hamza A. Tzortzis ‏@HATzortzis
    @holland_tom I'm in the process of doing that. Send me an email, we're planning the discussion to be held at a prestigious university.

    Hamza is on his knees begging for a live discussion so he can pull his rhetoric and save his behind.


    Hamza can't wait to throw the Kalam Fallacy at Tom Holland Cheesy

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #127 - September 04, 2012, 09:39 AM

    Mohammed Shafiq, Chief Executive of the Ramadhan Foundation comments: comments on that ""Islam: the untold story"

    Quote
    “I strongly condemn Channel 4's documentary tonight titled "Islam, untold story" which makes a mockery of impartial and objective broadcasting. This distorted, biased programme did not have the decency to check its facts and has broadcast lies. I am disappointed that an international broadcaster like Channel 4 has behaved in unbelievable way.



    Quote
    There are thousands of Muslims scholars across the globe including many in locations where Tom Holland visited during the programme but he did not see fit to speak to them and therefore I draw the conclusion he did not want the real truth but wanted to promote his utter rubbish. For instance he said Mecca was never mentioned in the Holy Quran, but in reality it is mentioned two times; Al- Azhab Chapter 33 Verse 6, Al Fath Chapter 48 Verse 24. There is also a mention of the Kaaba and Sacred Mecca Mosque in the Quran in Surah Al Isra Chapter 17 verse 1. A simple search would have produced this but his desire to distort Islam blinded him to objectivity and honesty. He featured evidence from a number of University Professors who happened not to be Muslim when he could have gone to any Muslim Scholar and asked his questions and would have got the answers.


    I have asked several senior Muslims Scholars in the United Kingdom to watch the programme and identify all the inaccuracies which we will forward to relevant authorities for action as detailed in our complaints.


    There is a desire amongst some people trying to change or discredit Islam whether its politicians, commentators or broadcasters like Channel 4. The British Muslim community will not allow Channel 4 to distort our faith and our history. The Ramadhan Foundation calls on Channel 4 to apologise for this programme, withdraw it from online viewing and also order an immediate inquiry into why this was allowed to be broadcast. How many Muslims Scholars, community leaders were given a copy of this programme before transmission? Whether historic facts in relation to Islam were verified by the presenter and who his sources were.

     
    The Ramadhan Foundation has complained to Channel 4 and also Ofcom in this matter and hope it will be addressed promptly and extensively


    Yes the book says so is a perfect defense for the history of Islam.. In fact THAT BOOK  tell the real history of Christianity and Judaism as that bible and Torah are corrupted...   anu way let us read those Al- Azhab Chapter 33 Verse 6, Al Fath Chapter 48 Verse 24.  and that  Al Isra Chapter 17 verse 1.

    Quote
    017.001: G lory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

    Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque     Means Mecca...

    Quote
    033.006
    YUSUFALI: The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah).

    PICKTHAL: The Prophet is closer to the believers than their selves, and his wives are (as) their mothers. And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah than (other) believers and the fugitives (who fled from Mecca), except that ye should do kindness to your friends. This is written in the Book (of nature).

    SHAKIR: The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other) believers, and (than) those who have fled (their homes), except that you do some good to your friends; this is written in the Book.


    That fool didn't know  the things that are put in brackets in  a translation means THOSE WORDS ARE ADDED BY THE TRANSLATOR.. ., There is No Mecca in Verse 33.006.

    Quote
    048.024
    YUSUFALI: And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
    PICKTHAL: And He it is Who hath withheld men's hands from you, and hath withheld your hands from them, in the valley of Mecca, after He had made you victors over them. Allah is Seer of what ye do.
    SHAKIR: And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do.

    That is only the verse which contains the word "Mecca" the other word is Bakka which is in Verse 3:096 


    Quote
    003.096
    YUSUFALI: The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:
    PICKTHAL: Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Becca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples;
    SHAKIR: Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka, blessed and a guidance for the nations.



    well..    Mohammed Shafiq, Chief Executive of the Ramadhan Foundation got to go to a Madrassa in Pakistan and read Quarn again............

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #128 - September 04, 2012, 12:42 PM

    Quote
    The British Muslim community will not allow Channel 4 to distort our faith and our history.


    Hmm.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #129 - September 04, 2012, 10:10 PM

    It amuses me no end that muslims (remember how Muhammad basically called Jewish and Christian history bollocks?) accuse Holland of ‘historical revisionism’. Oh the ironing is delicious…
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #130 - September 11, 2012, 11:49 PM

    Channel 4 cancels Islam documentary screening after presenter threatened  says news


    Islam: the Untold Story – Tom Holland with Bedouin in Wadi Rum, Jordan

    Quote

     Historian Tom Holland's Channel 4 film Islam: The Untold Story sparked more than 1,000 complaints when it was broadcast.  Holland was threatened online with a torrent of abusive messages on Twitter.  A Channel 4 spokeswoman said: "Having taken security advice, we have reluctantly cancelled a planned screening of the programme Islam: The Untold Story. We remain extremely proud of the film which is still available to view on 4oD."  The private screening was due to take place at the broadcaster's London headquarters on Thursday before an audience of historians and "opinion formers".

    The documentary is due to be repeated late on Thursday night and can be viewed online.


     The Islamic Education and Research Academy (IERA) accused him of making "baseless assumptions" and engaging in "selective scholarship".Iranian state media suggested the broadcast was an "insult" to Islam.

    One message sent to Holland read: "You might be a target in the streets. You may recruit some bodyguards, for your own safety."


    Writing on the Channel 4 website after complaints to both the channel and watchdog Ofcom, Holland said: "We were of course aware when making the programme that we were touching deeply held sensitivities and went to every effort to ensure that the moral and civilizational power of Islam was acknowledged in our film, and the perspective of Muslim faith represented, both in the persons of ordinary Bedouin in the desert, and one of the greatest modern scholars of Islam, Seyyed Hossein Nasr."

    Holland was defended by Dr Jenny Taylor who runs the charity Lapido Media which encourages better understanding and reporting of religion in the media.

    "He's shown all of us that Islam is interesting enough to be taken seriously. He's refused to stick his head in the sand and play blind about the problems or internal tensions that all thinking Muslims know are there," she said.

    "He's not trammelled the sacred heart of an ancient mystery but found hints of an even greater and more awesome reality that is tantalisingly beyond our grasp at the moment, but could just be the key to a shared past and shared future."


    Yap.,  In Tom holland case it is Islamic ]bullyism and in the case 100 discoveries of Islam  It is "me_tooIsm".,

    This metooism and bullyism seems to be the modern Islamic method of advancing Islamism,,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #131 - September 12, 2012, 12:37 AM

    ^  
    I say find all the people making violent threats to Tom Holland and deport them to islamic countries  

    The idiotic baboons like IERA and similiar organizations we CAN tolerate as long as they don't violently threaten or harm anyone.
     
    To all islamic fundamentalists:  If you lack the intellectual capacity to debate against his arguments it doesn't mean that you can threaten him. Britain is NOT an islamic country and you worthless pieces of crap can go back to the shitholes you came from.  

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #132 - September 12, 2012, 12:49 AM

    I have attached the script to the programme for anyone who has not been able to watch it.

     

    Guys just type "download islam the untold story torrent" on google and you'll find the file

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #133 - September 12, 2012, 02:15 AM

    ^  
    I say find all the people making violent threats to Tom Holland and deport them to islamic countries  

    which is the Islamic country on this earth TheDarkRebel?

    Quote
    The idiotic baboons ..........
     
    ...................... 

    Hmm., TheDarkRebel  you are becoming Islamophobe., let me help with that..


     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlJjjhGt0E0&feature=plcp


    That tube I get from   stardust2010 Channel.,    But she is NOT CEMB  stardust



    any ways I often wonder about these baboons in human form .,

    Indeed their existence and their escape from justice for their brutal criminal acts is the proof that that there is no god that  controls the fate of human future.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #134 - September 12, 2012, 02:42 AM

    On that Tom Holland Dissection of History of early Islam., The Washington Imam says  "Western media systematically insult Islam: Imam of Masjid al-Islam in Washington"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4R9u6MYXmY



    Juicy Juice media..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #135 - September 12, 2012, 02:07 PM


    To all islamic fundamentalists:  If you lack the intellectual capacity to debate against his arguments it doesn't mean that you can threaten him. Britain is NOT an islamic country and you worthless pieces of crap can go back to the shitholes you came from.  


    I understand your anger and frustration but it would be appreciated if you didn't use that sort of language on this forum.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #136 - September 12, 2012, 02:33 PM


    +1 ^^^

    Cool rhetoric leads to clarity on these issues.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #137 - September 12, 2012, 03:56 PM

    Unfortunately Tom Holland has postponed his appearance on the JT show until further notice.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #138 - September 12, 2012, 05:09 PM

    Lame. Did he say why?
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #139 - September 12, 2012, 05:22 PM

    probably because he is AFRAID that the brilliant HAMZA might call in and EXPOSE him. Typical kafir
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #140 - September 12, 2012, 05:23 PM

    Lame. Did he say why?


    Just guessing, he has probably gotten serious death threats from fundies and/or pressure from Ch4 etc.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #141 - September 12, 2012, 06:01 PM

    Unfortunately Tom Holland has postponed his appearance on the JT show until further notice.


    I can understand why he may want to stay off the radar for the time being.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #142 - September 12, 2012, 07:41 PM

    Top Historians Answer "Tom Holland" on "Islam: The Untold Story"   says tube...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hin5S3uSLTw


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtuBWg46JzI


    hmm...  that is the response from that converted male  Nurse turned in to Islamic scholar..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #143 - September 12, 2012, 11:01 PM

    which is the Islamic country on this earth TheDarkRebel?
    Hmm., TheDarkRebel  you are becoming Islamophobe., let me help with that..


     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlJjjhGt0E0&feature=plcp  




    That tube I get from   stardust2010 Channel.,    But she is NOT CEMB  stardust



    any ways I often wonder about these baboons in human form .,

    Indeed their existence and their escape from justice for their brutal criminal acts is the proof that that there is no god that  controls the fate of human future.


     

    I am definitely NOT an islamophobe a good friend of mine who I still keep in touch with is a liberal muslim and I still enjoy chatting with liberal muslim acquaintances.

     I just can't stand the fundamentalists. When i said deport the violent/threat making fundies to islamic countries I mean places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, any third world country would do in fact.   

    @Billy and Naerys  I'll try to keep the profanities to a minimum  Smiley

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #144 - September 13, 2012, 04:15 PM

    Tom has not been intimidated or anything, in fact he said the reports of cancellations etc in the media are inaccurate and pure hype.  He's just bored of the whole subject at the moment.  Perhaps after a few months of not talking about it he will feel up to participating.


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #145 - September 15, 2012, 02:24 PM

    Has anybody seen a rebuttal, or anything close to a rebuttal from a person/organisation who actually understood what the documentary was saying?

    The truth of the Islamic religion has very little to do with how well Muslims know their history, so I'm pretty sure I could be completely objective.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #146 - October 29, 2012, 06:34 PM

    tom holland event in london next week discussing the book/doc

    http://www.abiggersociety.com/tom-holland-islam-whose-story/
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #147 - October 31, 2012, 06:37 PM

    Has anybody seen a rebuttal, or anything close to a rebuttal from a person/organisation who actually understood what the documentary was saying?

    The truth of the Islamic religion has very little to do with how well Muslims know their history, so I'm pretty sure I could be completely objective.


    Closest I've seen:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMX1GpL9ahQ

    FreeThought Wiki is looking for translators!

    Current projects: Faraj Foda's "al-Haqiqa al Ghaib" (Arabic) and Turan Dursun's "Din Bu I" (Turkish)
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #148 - October 31, 2012, 07:41 PM

    Hmm, that is wierd. I am guessing that Hugh kennedy has not actually read Tom Holland's book. Because he used papyry from Egypt that uses the Islamic Calendar as evidence that Holland is wrong. Not only does that not diprove any of Holland's points, but Holland himself even writes about the same papyry in the book and even has a picture of the earliest one. Also he refers to Crone and Cook's work, which is different from Holland's work.

    So either Hugh Kennedy has not read Holland's book and is simply assuming that it is the same as Crone and Cook's, or the interviewers were not asking him about Holland's book in the first place, they did not show the actual question that he was asked.

    I am surprised that a guy like Hugh Kennedy doesn't take a greater interest in books like Tom Holland's. Seeing as he is an expert in the field, one would assume that he would have a natural curiosity for books like that and snap it up as soon as it was released.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #149 - November 07, 2012, 10:25 PM

    The main problem with the documentary was the fact they just put the classic template that is used to refute the core principles of Christianity (location issues, Jesus doesn't exist, partial evidence some parts of the religion were fabrication of an empire) and shoe horns Islam into it. Which turns the documentary into an mediocre mess.

    The location stuff was great, it showed how there could be various interpretations. The 'Muhammed does not exist' stuff was so weak and laughable. Even European text refers to Mohammed. And of course an empire would support Muhammed and popularise him since he help start the damn empire by killing some enemies.

    If your going let a guy who has spent most of his life writing fiction do a pure historical documentary they don't be surprised he might be a bit shit at it. 
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