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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam: the untold story

 (Read 25118 times)
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  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #150 - November 07, 2012, 10:42 PM


    The 'Muhammed does not exist' stuff was so weak and laughable. Even European text refers to Mohammed.


    He doesn't say that Muhammad didn't exist.


    Even European text refers to Mohammed.


    Which text are you referring to?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #151 - November 08, 2012, 10:45 PM

    "Holland proceeds to highlight that there is no mention of either Muhammad or the city of Mecca whatsoever in the evidence from the early centuries of the Arab Empire."

    Pretty sure he was implying someone called Muhammed was a fabrication.

    From the wiki synopsis but if you watch it the documentary goes down hill (in my opinion) when he starts talking about this. I forgot the exact time this segment starts, 20 min in? Its so ambiguous and "but what if~" style questions annoyed me and reminded me of UFO documentaries. The drop in references to documents and not asking a variety of experts their opinion is annoying. He could have made this section stronger by taking a known battle Muhammed took part in or an event that is written in the Quran and said "another source said it happened without someone called Muhammed taking part".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad#Non-Muslim_sources

    Apologies as this is the best I can do. Used to have access to online articles at uni but left a while ago.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #152 - November 08, 2012, 10:57 PM

    Quote
    Pretty sure he was implying someone called Muhammed was a fabrication.


    He doesn't ever say that Muhammad was a fabrication. Well, lets get this straight. He doesn't say that Muhammad did not exist. Fabrication is a word that may be strongly pejorative. What he talks about is how Islam was constructed, and how the narrative and story of Muhammad was constructed and how there isn't clarity about that.

    Also, he doesn't say that there is no mention of Mecca. He talks about the construction of Islam in historical terms - in the same way that Judaism, Christianity were willed into existence by real social pressures and imperial powers.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #153 - November 08, 2012, 11:05 PM

    ^ Yes, exactly. He actually says that there was no mention of Mecca in contemporary sources outside of Islam until the year 741.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #154 - November 09, 2012, 12:26 AM

    ^ Yes, exactly. He actually says that there was no mention of Mecca in contemporary sources outside of Islam until the year 741.


    Actually there are no mentions of Mecca inside AND outside of Islam until year 741.

    This is a pretty good video about it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggR0Gz4JaEQ

    I am not necessarily saying that the Muslims simply built Mecca after the fact, although that is conceivable. There may have been some sacred place known as Mecca somewhere in the desert, but noone remembered where it was so they picked any old place that had a Kaaba and made that Mecca and built a town around it. Early Muslims sources make it clear that there were many Kaabas all over Arabia.

    Most likely Mecca really is where Muslims say it was. But it was probably a lot less significant than Ibn Ishaq makes it out to be, instead of a major commercial town, maybe it was just a few tents around a sacred Kaaba. That would explain why no sources mention the town prior to Islam. Ibn Ishaq simply made Mecca to be a big city because he wanted to make Muhammad seem more impressive, conquering a little village is not as impressive as conquering a big city.

    The alternative is that there were many sacred sites all over Arabia and Jordan, and some of the stories from the Quran come from Jordan whilst others come from Hejaz (that would explain why there are references to the growing of olives and stuff which do not grow down in the Hejaz). We really don't have any evidence that the Quran was written by one person in one place, it could well be an amalgamation of many tales from many tribes.

    I am not ruling out entirely that Mecca was exactly what the traditional Muslim account says it was, a significant and wealthy city. That is definitively possible. After all, all big things start from small beginnings. Just because there may not be any mention of Rome in the Bronze Age, that doesn't mean that the Romans made up the story of the founding of Rome in the Iron Age.

    And as for the mentioning of olives and cows, well that is easy to explain away. The ancient era sources describe the region as being more fertile than they are today. There are islands in the Red Sea which are described by ancient Greeks as having forests on them, but if you look at these islands today on Google Earth, they are totally barren. Also the Arabs were traders and they traveled a lot, they would have been familiar with olives even if they did not grow in the Hejaz.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #155 - November 09, 2012, 12:43 AM

    I don't have the reference to hand, but I think I read that the Romans had charted knowledge of the lands of Arabia including the main trading hubs of the hijaz and Mecca doesn't feature in them. Other places are described as major trading hubs, but Mecca simply wasn't on their radar.

    I think the Shoemaker book may touch on this, haven't reached that point yet though.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #156 - November 09, 2012, 04:15 PM

    We really don't have any evidence that the Quran was written by one person in one place, it could well be an amalgamation of many tales from many tribes.

    There certainly are quite a few variant traditions in the qur’an, so that does indeed make sense.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #157 - December 05, 2012, 11:49 AM

    This is a long thread, but in case anyone doesn't have a link to the video, I finally found one.
    http://vimeo.com/49439561

  • Islam: the untold story
     Reply #158 - October 28, 2014, 07:09 PM

    As the previous link for 'Islam: The Untold Story' is dead here's one that works:
    http://vimeo.com/79051482
    Also some talking heads stuff about the film, with Tom Holland, from, I think, Dutch TV

    Part 1 (introduction to the film):
    http://vimeo.com/79051466
    Part 2 (post-showing discussion):
    http://vimeo.com/79053193
  • Islam: the untold story
     Reply #159 - October 29, 2014, 08:06 PM

    I've just watched the last video through (the post-showing discussion) and it's very good - recommended viewing.
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