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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam: the untold story

 (Read 25148 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #60 - August 29, 2012, 09:07 PM

    Actually this could help liberate Muslims from Islam's imperialistic history, if they sat and thought about the implications.


    Exactly, Holland is simply highlighting the fact that so little is known for certain. I haven't seen the show but I did read the book. Holland is asking more questions than providing answers. If Muslims would just give it a chance then they could use the basic premise to dissassociate themselves from all the morally dubious aspects of the traditional account, from the age of Aisha to the actual battles. They could even say that the battles are all a myth concucted later and really Islam spread peacfully. But judging by the twitter comments, they don't seem to want to.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #61 - August 29, 2012, 09:23 PM

    Quote
    Makkah


    I recommend moving the hajj to the Cavern and worshipping John Lennon pbuh.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #62 - August 29, 2012, 10:11 PM


    There is nothing actually original in this idea, it's only original that someone finally seems to have the cojones to make this connection when it comes to Islam's formation.


    I think you nailed it allat.

    I'm a big fan of the book and thought for a 90 minute show this did a decent job. I actually thought it was very respectful and took Islam seriously in terms of being a man made phenomenon understandable through the lens of the history of empires rising and falling. But of course, to the believers that is in itself a horrific heresy.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #63 - August 29, 2012, 10:14 PM

    I recommend moving the hajj to the Cavern and worshipping John Lennon pbuh.


    I think the Hare Krishna's have got the Beatles sewn up.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #64 - August 29, 2012, 10:16 PM

    The whole Kaaba/Mecca thing is fascinating. For example before they built the Kaaba cube building thing there, was there just a volcanic rock sitting in the middle of a valley with a bunch of half naked pagans dancing around it? Or was there simply nothing there? Was it just an empty piece of desert? This stuff is soooo fascinating!


    I want to know about the structure too. The cube. Was it always like that? The geometry is singular - was there a geometric significance to it. So many questions.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam-The UnTold Story free download
     Reply #65 - August 29, 2012, 10:30 PM

    When I click on "download" nothing happens. Did you try it?
  • Re: Islam-The UnTold Story free download
     Reply #66 - August 29, 2012, 10:38 PM

    Can this get merged with other thread, or added to the top, or something magic like that? Maybe not. No? I'll be quiet.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #67 - August 29, 2012, 10:43 PM

    I actually thought it was very respectful and took Islam seriously in terms of being a man made phenomenon understandable through the lens of the history of empires rising and falling. But of course, to the believers that is in itself a horrific heresy.

    John Crace agrees...
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2012/aug/28/the-untold-story-islam-accused
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #68 - August 29, 2012, 10:47 PM

    Can this get merged with other thread, or added to the top, or something magic like that? Maybe not. No? I'll be quiet.

    Merged topics as they had almost identical names and were in the same sub-forum.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #69 - August 29, 2012, 10:51 PM



    Very astute review.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • (^_^)
     Reply #70 - August 29, 2012, 10:54 PM

    I started watching it, but then I was reminded how utterly boring Islam is.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #71 - August 30, 2012, 12:19 AM


    Don't tempt us.


    Great thread. Thanks one and all.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #72 - August 30, 2012, 12:58 PM

    OK I finaly saw it and wow! I had read the book, but the show was far more moving and to the point.

    It started off slow, it didn't need that slow introduction showing Tom in Constantinople or hanging out with the Beduins in the desert, or at least those scenes could have been half as long.

    With hindsight, after reading all the ignorant twitter comments from Muslims, it seems that the show needed to explain in a little more detail why the Hadith collections are dubious sources for those with actual training in historical analysis. Because the way Muslims reacted on Twitter it seems that they think Tom Holland is not even aware that the Hadiths exist, lol. They write things like "Why didn't he consult a Muslim scholar".  Roll Eyes

    But once it got going,  the show was really moving. The end scene which shows him wandering in the desert and finding nothing was just such a great metaphor, I loved it!

    I am now pretty convinced that it is highly unlikely that Mecca could really have existed where it did. All of the rest of the traditional narrative is still very plausible to me. But the idea that the center of this empire was really out in the middle of nowhere with no agricultural base to support it is becoming more and more hard to believe in my mind.

    Has anybody done any kind of study to determine what size of population the agricultural land around the city of Mecca could have supported based on the technology of those times? How could the administrative center of such a massive and growing empire have supported the armies neccesary to conquer all those new lands?

    Not only is this dubious to me, but the fact that there is no written evidence AND no archaeological evidence that anything significant EVER happened in the area around Mecca up to the time of Islam, simply adds more doubt. All of the sources and the archaeological evidence point to the fact that the centers of wealth, power and civilization for the Arabs was the area around Jordan (the Nabateans) and the area around Yemen (The Sabeans) throughout history prior to the advent of Islam, so why would Mecca have suddenly emerged as such an important place in the century or so prior to Islam?
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #73 - August 30, 2012, 01:11 PM

    He did. He said that it's only mentioned as 'Bakkah' and that there's no mention of it in its current name, which led him to conclude that Bakkah might not even be Mecca, and that Mecca might very well have been chosen as the holy city of Islam decades after Muhammad. That, of course, is bullshit. Mecca is explicitly mentioned in the Quran in its current name several times.


    OK, this is totally untrue. The show definately did not say that Mecca is not mentioned in the Koran. What the show actually said was "Apart from one single mention in the Koran, the city fo Mecca is not mentioned by any other historical sources for 100 years after the death of Muhammad".

    In fact this right here is a perfect example of why oral histories are so bad as records. All these Muslims keep re-tweeting that the show said that Mecca is not mentioned in the Koran, but the show never even said this. I imagine that half of the people re-tweeting this never even saw the show in the first place and are just basing their information on what other people said on twitter.

    However, because the show is recorded we can go back to it and see what Tom Holland actually did say. But if it was an oral history then we would not be able to do that. Now this misinformation about the show on twitter is only about 1 day old. If this much misinformation can creep into the story in just 1 day, then just imagine how much nonsense would creep into the story within 1 week, and then 1 month, and then 1 year, and then 100 years, and then 200 years of oral transmission.
  • Islam: The untold story
     Reply #74 - August 30, 2012, 01:20 PM

    Did anyone watch it?
    [link removed]

    He has agreed to be a guest panelist in a future JT show.  Looks like we might have to put on an extra show in order to accommodate him though, probably on the 16th of September (which will clash with the magic sandwich show.)

    Still, it should be interesting!

    Mod edit: Please do not post links to copyrighted content on the forum.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam: The untold story
     Reply #75 - August 30, 2012, 01:21 PM

    We are discussing it here.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #76 - August 30, 2012, 01:49 PM

    Quote
    Has anybody done any kind of study to determine what size of population the agricultural land around the city of Mecca could have supported based on the technology of those times? How could the administrative center of such a massive and growing empire have supported the armies neccesary to conquer all those new lands?


    Arabs were not and many still are not farmers, they were pastoralists specialising in goats, which have very significant ecological effects.

    Quote
    The great Roman cities of the Middle East and North Africa some of the most iconic archaeological sites on earth. There are literally hundreds of them, in various states of preservation. In most cases the pillars of temples and public buildings still stand, like the “bleached bones” (as Kenneth Clark described them) of classical civilization. The Roman cities of Europe tend to be in a much poorer state of preservation because they were not abandoned. In Europe settlements such as London, Paris, Trier, Regensburg, Cordoba, etc, were occupied continuously from ancient times, and the fine cut stones of the temples and palaces were reused and remodelled on numerous occasions throughout the Middle Ages. And because people still lived in the localities many meters of debris came to cover the Roman settlements. It was not so in the Middle East and North Africa; here the great classical settlements were (with a handful of exceptions) abandoned and never reoccupied.

    The abandoned cities usually now stand in semi-arid territories, landscapes that have not been cultivated for many centuries, though it is evident that they were extensively cultivated in Roman and Byzantine times. Historians are in no doubt that the majority of the abandoned cities were deserted because of the collapse of agriculture in the surrounding countryside. These settlements, with their large populations, needed productive farming communities in order to survive. The desertification of the territories in which they stood would have been a death sentence for them. But what caused the agricultural collapse?

    ..


    Quote
    For decades the core of the debate raged around two opposing positions: One school of thought looked to climate change; another looked to human action. By the late 1940s however the evidence had moved decisively in favor of the latter, and the definitive work was published in 1951 by Rhoads Murphey, Professor Emeritus of History at Harvard. In an article entitled “The Decline of North Africa since the Roman Occupation: Climatic or Human?” he provides a detailed outline of the problem. I shall quote him at some length, as what he says is most instructive:

    “The Romans were an agricultural people who expanded into their Mediterranean empire from a relatively humid base in Italy. It was natural that they should extend this approach to the natural environment into the African provinces. The Arabs were on the contrary a nomadic people, nurtured in the true desert of Arabia, and totally unused to an agricultural economy. Their technique was unequal to understanding or managing the highly-developed irrigation works of North Africa bequeathed to them by the Romans, and they had no need for dependence on the agriculture which these works had supported. Their different use of the land does not need to be explained by a change in climate. No military conquest is conducive to the maintenance of civil order nor the administration and technical organization which an intricate irrigation economy requires, especially when the conquerors are nomads. The Arab conquest destroyed the Roman irrigation works, or allowed them to deteriorate, and established in their stead a nomadic pastoral economy over most of North Africa.” (Rhoads Murphey, “The Decline of North Africa since the Roman Occupation: Climatic or Human?”, ANNALS, Association of American Geographers, Vol. XLI, no. 2, (June 1951))....


    Quote
    He continues: “Nevertheless, it is possible that the changed land use which the Arabs brought with them did in time affect the natural environment in a critical way. By the end of the eighth century AD there were approximately one million Arabs in North Africa. Each Arab family kept a large flock of sheep and goats, variously estimated at between fifteen and fifty per family. Goats are notoriously close croppers, and their unrestricted grazing in the Mediterranean area has had a virtually irreparable effect. In North Africa too, the added presence of several million goats undoubtedly destroyed large areas of grass, scrub, and trees, increasing the run-off, decreasing precious supplies of groundwater and lowering the water table perhaps critically, adding to the erosion of water courses, and disrupting the optimum distribution of surface water …” (Ibid.) Furthermore, “Contemporary Arab disrespect for trees (notorious in both Arabia and North Africa) except as lumber or firewood, and lack of understanding of the long-term value to themselves of tree-cover may suggest a further deteriorating effect of Arab land use on the productivity of North Africa. Indeed, one student of the problem, while agreeing that the North African climate has not changed significantly in the last 2000 years, states that the primary cause of the economic decline during that period has been deforestation, for which he lays the blame at the door of the Arabs.” (Ibid., pp. 124-5)


    Of course, the above is "pastoralist" but still, Allah does seem to have been asleep in the ecology 101 class!

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/104822/sec_id/104822

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #77 - August 30, 2012, 01:59 PM

    I've not seen the documentary yet, but has anyone given thought to the IERA response?
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #78 - August 30, 2012, 02:02 PM

    Fascinating blog here about ecological footprint of the Arab world.

    Quote
    Ironically, the largest ecological footprint in the world belongs to the UAE with approximately about 16 hectares per person. The 3rd highest footprint belongs to Kuwait with 10.31 hectares per person then Saudi Arabia ranks 17th in the world with 6.15 hectares per capita.


    http://rationalrepublic.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/ecological-footprint-of-arab-world.html

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #79 - August 30, 2012, 02:28 PM

    Tom Holland was discussing how the centre of Islam came to be Mecca.  In the Quran it does not say that Mo was born there, that he lived there, that he received revelations there; nor does it say that Mecca is a holy place.

    He says that only Bakkah is described as a holy place, and that the only mention of Mecca is ambiguous...it basically says that two groups of people met there and didn't fight.

    Today's Muslims can't even get a quote right 5 minutes after it is aired on TV, what a great demonstration of the infallibility of oral tradition Cheesy

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #80 - August 30, 2012, 02:44 PM

    PS: Tom Holland is a confirmed guest on a future episode of the JT show.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #81 - August 30, 2012, 02:47 PM

    Today's Muslims can't even get a quote right 5 minutes after it is aired on TV, what a great demonstration of the infallibility of oral tradition Cheesy

    You had me chortling with that tweet.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #82 - August 30, 2012, 03:09 PM

    I've not seen the documentary yet, but has anyone given thought to the IERA response?

     There are plenty of actual honest and well meaning Islamic studies scholars that have plenty of acumen to discuss, debate, criticize, and critique Holland. Iera has none of that. Plus whenever I see the word epistemology in an Iera document I want to set my screen on fire.

    Looking over their document they use the same form every apologist uses. They made a couple of statements then use a one or two sentence quote from someone and move on. I'm always weary of that, because in a ton of apologetics they will quote mine one or two sentences that agree while the entire piece may say something different. Besides last time Iera had a psychologist try and tell an embryologist how a embryo forms so they don't have a lot of trust.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #83 - August 30, 2012, 04:36 PM

    PS: Tom Holland is a confirmed guest on a future episode of the JT show.


    Great, can't wait

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #84 - August 30, 2012, 04:38 PM

    Tom Holland was discussing how the centre of Islam came to be Mecca.  In the Quran it does not say that Mo was born there, that he lived there, that he received revelations there; nor does it say that Mecca is a holy place.

    He says that only Bakkah is described as a holy place, and that the only mention of Mecca is ambiguous...it basically says that two groups of people met there and didn't fight.

    Today's Muslims can't even get a quote right 5 minutes after it is aired on TV, what a great demonstration of the infallibility of oral tradition Cheesy


    haha  Smiley

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #85 - August 30, 2012, 10:22 PM

    Tom Holland was discussing how the centre of Islam came to be Mecca.  In the Quran it does not say that Mo was born there, that he lived there, that he received revelations there; nor does it say that Mecca is a holy place.

    He says that only Bakkah is described as a holy place, and that the only mention of Mecca is ambiguous...it basically says that two groups of people met there and didn't fight.

    Today's Muslims can't even get a quote right 5 minutes after it is aired on TV, what a great demonstration of the infallibility of oral tradition Cheesy

    I kept trying to click the ‘retweet’ button on this post until I remembered I’m not actually on Twitter.

    EDIT: Apparently Channel 4 responded to someone who complained about the programme.

    http://twitpic.com/ap89tk/full
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #86 - September 01, 2012, 09:36 AM

    Tom Holland responded yesterday to complaints on c4 website:

     http://www.channel4.com/programmes/islam-the-untold-story/articles/tom-holland-responds-to-the-programmes-critics

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #87 - September 01, 2012, 12:35 PM

    It seems Tom Holland may inadvertently have bought the wrath of some silly muslims, onto the entire Dutch nation... Confused? I certainly was, when a Brother sent me the following text the morning after the documentary was aired:

     "Asalaam Alaykum, Holland has made a programme in which our beloved Prophet (SAW) is made fun of. 60 million Muslims can destroy the economy of Holland by taking less than 5 min to forward this message so that we can answer Allah (SWT) when he asks us what action we tookwhen his beloved (SAW) was made fun of. Denmark is losing; pls dont
    let this mail stop in your inbox. Hope u all know about the Denmark
    newspaper that made fun of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and till now do
    they regret. Let us make them regret for good. The Danish Ambassador,
    Prime Minister and Denmark National channel all are trying to do
    something just to stop the boycott by Muslims since last month through
    which their losses have reached 4 billion Euros. If we continue to
    boycott Denmark products for 7 months more it could reach around 80
    billion Euros loss. Believers do not let this message stop.
    PLEASE forward!
    .Believe in the impossible and remind all to boycott their products (e.g.
    7-up drink, LEGO, Cadbury chocolates, Hall Chewing gums or any product with barcode no. starting with 57).
    REMEMBER, THE PROPHET (PBUH) MIGHT ASK YOU ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, 'WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN THEY MADE FUN OF ME? HOW DID YOU DEFEND ME?' ..."

    Hi
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #88 - September 01, 2012, 12:44 PM

    That makes me laugh and facepalm at the same time!

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #89 - September 01, 2012, 12:48 PM

    Hilarious  Smiley

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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