Islam: the untold story

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- yeezevee
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #30 - August 28, 2012, 11:43 PM

Quote from: -Tmp- on August 28, 2012, 11:22 PM
Tell him to stop pulling shit out of his ass.............

that is Ok., they can pull anything from their asses but the problem is, these fools pulling shit out of their brains and mouths and spread foul smell all over
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047.007
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! If ye help Allah, He will help you and will make your foothold firm.
SHAKIR: O you who believe ! if you help (the cause of) Allah, He will help you and make firm your feet.

what pre-Islamic Arabic poetry you need to know to understand a silly statements like those

"If you help Allah.. allah will help you"..??

That allegedly all knowing, all superior ultimate power house allah could be helped by mortals??

Fools write nonsense..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #31 - August 29, 2012, 01:26 AM

Quote from: Kodanshi on August 28, 2012, 11:05 PM
“to attempt to interpret the Quran one must be versed in Arabic grammar, Pre Islamic Arabian poetry amongst many other things”

That is pretty stupid of an eternal, omniscient god, is what I'd respond with to that.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #32 - August 29, 2012, 05:07 AM

Good documentary. Don't necessarily agree with everything it says, but nonetheless asks some valid questions.
- chris
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #33 - August 29, 2012, 03:04 PM

Fear not, IERA are on the case:

http://www.iera.org.uk/press_29aug2012.html
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #34 - August 29, 2012, 03:13 PM

Actually, I did think Tom Holland only used historians who support his theory, and that he rejected oral traditions without proper justification. And when he said that the Quran doesn't mention Mecca, it became quite clear that he didn't do his research.

Plus, why is it so hard to believe that someone living in Mecca would have had access to the Levant? The historian he interviewed said that Mecca was a remote area in the middle of the desert, when in fact it was a trading hub.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #35 - August 29, 2012, 03:34 PM

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Actually, I did think Tom Holland only used historians who support his theory, and that he rejected oral traditions without proper justification. And when he said that the Quran doesn't mention Mecca, it became quite clear that he didn't do his research.

I think it's quite obvious why oral traditions make for dodgy accounts of history. I don't think he did say that Mecca isn't mentioned in the Qur'an. Did he?

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The historian he interviewed said that Mecca was a remote area in the middle of the desert, when in fact it was a trading hub.

What evidence is there of this?
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #36 - August 29, 2012, 04:01 PM

Quote from: chris on August 29, 2012, 03:34 PM
I think it's quite obvious why oral traditions make for dodgy accounts of history.

All historical accounts are "dodgy". It's not like written accounts are objective. Doesn't mean we should toss everything out.

Arabic culture during the rise of Islam was predominantly oral. One can't study it properly without taking oral traditions into account. That there's little written history doesn't mean there's little history at all. That's quite a Western-centric viewpoint.

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I don't think he did say that Mecca isn't mentioned in the Qur'an. Did he?

He did. He said that it's only mentioned as 'Bakkah' and that there's no mention of it in its current name, which led him to conclude that Bakkah might not even be Mecca, and that Mecca might very well have been chosen as the holy city of Islam decades after Muhammad. That, of course, is bullshit. Mecca is explicitly mentioned in the Quran in its current name several times.

I also found fascinating his talk about the qiblah before Mecca. As if that's a controversy! Every Muslim knows that Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem was the first qiblah, which explains why, as he says, some mosques were directed towards a city to the north of Mecca.

He also says that there's no mention of the direction of the new qiblah by name, and that the Quran only orders Muslims to turn towards an unspecified mosque. Wrong. The Quran orders Muslims to turn their faces towards "Al-Masjid Al-Haram". That's the name of the mosque in Mecca.

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What evidence is there of this?

I'm not a historian, nor have I extensively studied the history of the city, but there seem to be many accounts telling the story of Mecca, previously named 'Macoraba', being a major trading city during the Roman and Byzantine Empires.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #37 - August 29, 2012, 05:17 PM

Wasn't overly impressed with the documentary. But, I think a lot of the content is based on the previous work of Patricia Crone, who is as serious about Islamic history as they come. Liked her even when I was still a Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Crone

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All historical accounts are "dodgy". It's not like written accounts are objective. Doesn't mean we should toss everything out.

Perhaps. But surely oral accounts transmitted over a period of 200 years (quite a few generations in those days) are particularly amenable to modification? I could understand why a historian would not want to build a picture of history based on them.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #38 - August 29, 2012, 05:17 PM

Quote from: Abood on August 29, 2012, 04:01 PM
He did. He said that it's only mentioned as 'Bakkah' and that there's no mention of it in its current name, which led him to conclude that Bakkah might not even be Mecca, and that Mecca might very well have been chosen as the holy city of Islam decades after Muhammad. That, of course, is bullshit. Mecca is explicitly mentioned in the Quran in its current name several times.

No it is not, it is only mentioned once (48.24) , as the "Valley of Mecca".

Quote from: Abood on August 29, 2012, 04:01 PM
I also found fascinating his talk about the qiblah before Mecca. As if that's a controversy! Every Muslim knows that Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem was the first qiblah, which explains why, as he says, some mosques were directed towards a city to the north of Mecca.

I am pretty sure you have your dates mixed up. I am pretty sure he is talking about Mosques in the conquered territories, places like Mesopotamia and Iraq, which were only conquered after Muhammad had already died. So based on the traditional chronology it could not be mosques that were built before Muhmmad supposedly changed the direction of prayer.

Quote from: Abood on August 29, 2012, 04:01 PM
I'm not a historian, nor have I extensively studied the history of the city, but there seem to be many accounts telling the story of Mecca, previously named 'Macoraba', being a major trading city during the Roman and Byzantine Empires.

Well if that were true then that would be fascinating new information to me. There are not "many accounts" of a city called "Macoraba", I have heard that name somewhere before and a tenuous connection of Macoraba to Mecca, but nothing conclusive. Over here I have provided tonnes of Classical descriptions of the Hejaz region, none of them mention Mecca or Macoraba. Anyway if you could provide a source for this "Macoraba" that would be really appreciated.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #39 - August 29, 2012, 06:27 PM

Dear oh dear. It was a night of boohoos and tears before bedtime for particularly sensitive members of the Ummah. First a programme questioning (in a ridiculously over-delicate manner) Islamic Orthodoxy, and then a comedy...with...with Muslim characters in it! Before you could shout "zionist neo-con illuminatic conspiracy", the complaints started to trickle in: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19395994
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #40 - August 29, 2012, 07:25 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on August 29, 2012, 05:17 PM
No it is not, it is only mentioned once (48.24) , as the "Valley of Mecca".

You're right; it's only mentioned once. But it's not the "valley" of Mecca. The phrase is "fi batni Mecca", which literally means "in the middle of Mecca". Many translations support this. Eg:

"And He it is Who has withheld their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makkah, after He had made you victors over them. And Allah is Ever the All-Seer of what you do."
Dar-us-salam.com

I really have no idea how 'batni' can mean 'valley'. 'Valley' in Arabic is wadi', which is mentioned several times in the Quran, eg. 8:42, 14:37.

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I am pretty sure he is talking about Mosques in the conquered territories, places like Mesopotamia and Iraq, which were only conquered after Muhammad had already died. So based on the traditional chronology it could not be mosques that were built before Muhmmad supposedly changed the direction of prayer.

He didn't mention any dates, nor did he even provide a location of the mosques with the different qiblah he was talking about. The only piece of evidence he provided was the ruins of a mosque in the middle of the desert.

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Well if that were true then that would be fascinating new information to me. There are not "many accounts" of a city called "Macoraba", I have heard that name somewhere before and a tenuous connection of Macoraba to Mecca, but nothing conclusive. Over here I have provided tonnes of Classical descriptions of the Hejaz region, none of them mention Mecca or Macoraba. Anyway if you could provide a source for this "Macoraba" that would be really appreciated.

You can find plenty by just googling something like "Mecca Roman Bezantine" or "Macoraba Roman Bezantine". Here's one.

Quote from: Blade Gunner on August 29, 2012, 05:17 PM
Perhaps. But surely oral accounts transmitted over a period of 200 years (quite a few generations in those days) are particularly amenable to modification? I could understand why a historian would not want to build a picture of history based on them.

Of course they are amendable to modification. That doesn't mean a historian should dismiss them all. A thorough study of the evidence should include the examination of the origins of each source, both written and oral.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #41 - August 29, 2012, 07:36 PM

I thought it was pretty good, could have covered a lot more, but it definitely whetted my appetite to look up Tom Holland's book and Patricia Crone too. The Islamic Studies Prof was rather idiotic - typical though, he was willing to be so skeptical about everything but Islam's own dogma.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #42 - August 29, 2012, 07:39 PM

That dude looked like a tool throughout the movie. Pretty sure he was put in there just to poke fun at him.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #43 - August 29, 2012, 07:39 PM

I started watching it, but then I was reminded how utterly boring Islam is.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #44 - August 29, 2012, 07:43 PM

Quote from: Abood on August 29, 2012, 07:39 PM
That dude looked like a tool throughout the movie. Pretty sure he was put in there just to poke fun at him.

I thought so too. I was like WTF, is he trying to embarrass himself?

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #45 - August 29, 2012, 07:44 PM

Quote from: Ishina on August 29, 2012, 07:39 PM
I started watching it, but then I was reminded how utterly boring Islam is.

Really? I find Islamic history quite fascinating. Mostly because, as the documentary illustrates, there's a large black hole surrounding it. Also because I'm really fascinated by Arab identity throughout the region, and how the Islamic Empire shaped it. A lot of Arabic speakers, especially more recently, argue that they're not Arabs, and I think it's an attempt at de-Islamification and some sort of attempt at cultural self-determination.

I was actually considering doing a degree in Islamic history at one point.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #46 - August 29, 2012, 07:54 PM

Yeah, it bores me stupid. I feel stupider after having read or watched something about Islam, or after hearing a Muslim talk about Islam. It's almost as though it was purposefully crafted to be as small-minded, petty, unexciting, shallow, drab as possible using all the crap and boring bits of much more interesting mythologies and traditions, with extra stupid and OCD added.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #47 - August 29, 2012, 07:55 PM

I think you're confusing Islamic history with mythology/theology. I'm more interested in it from a secular perspective.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #48 - August 29, 2012, 07:56 PM

Same goes for the history.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #49 - August 29, 2012, 07:56 PM

Quote from: Ishina on August 29, 2012, 07:39 PM
I started watching it, but then I was reminded how utterly boring Islam is.

I had it on in the background while I did other stuff. Caught enough of it though. Pretty interesting, overall.

I thought Holland was very respectful, considering it's obvious he's mining through a lot of bullshit to try to find something actually verifiable. He asked the Islamic prof a few times if he thought Holland was being imperialistic. That alone was commendable and showed that Holland is not a stereotypical academic imposing things - all the evidence he did cite was from Arab sources, the coins, the verses from the Quran etc.

There has to be some external input too, for something to be credible, otherwise, a thing can be valuable, culturally significant, but it can't be totally credible as an historical fact. We all know how much some Muslims resist any actual scrutiny of Islam in any shape or form... especially by Non-Muslims.

The Islamic prof said in the beginning to Holland that No, because he (Holland) is not Muslim, there is no way he can actually explore Islam's history. What does belief in a particular set of religious beliefs have to do with the actuality of what happened in the earliest days of its formation? Other than wanting only those who are already bound by fear to constantly re-iterate the party line, there is nothing actually reasonable about what the Islamic prof said.

It's not even like Holland is claiming that Mo didn't exist. What he's suggesting is that Mo was a nominal figure until 60 years or so after his death when imperialistic powers decided to mythologise his name in order to garner populist support in exchange for promised other-worldly benefits. This is not new AT ALL. In fact, if one studies the history of State societies, religions started in order to consolidate power in the hands of state authorities in lieu of promises of the afterlife. The idea of secularism is very, very new. Originally and throughout the centuries, almost everywhere that states have emerged, religion has been the way to rally the masses to support the rulers. What better way to scare the masses into submitting their will and their harvests to the ruling classes, than to tell them it is required of them if they want to live on comfortably after death? There is nothing actually original in this idea, it's only original that someone finally seems to have the cojones to make this connection when it comes to Islam's formation.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #50 - August 29, 2012, 07:59 PM

Quote from: Abood on August 29, 2012, 07:25 PM
He didn't mention any dates, nor did he even provide a location of the mosques with the different qiblah he was talking about. The only piece of evidence he provided was the ruins of a mosque in the middle of the desert.

Well it is quite well known that the first moques of Egypt pointed East and the first ones in Iraq pointed West. Tom Holland is not the first person to point this out. Here is a link about it.

Quote from: Abood on August 29, 2012, 07:25 PM
You can find plenty by just googling something like "Mecca Roman Bezantine" or "Macoraba Roman Bezantine".

Actually the link you provided does not even mention Macoraba. But anyway i would advise against basing your facts on internet heresay, you really need to go back to the original primary source. From what i can work out, it seems that the only classical source that mentions 'Macoraba" is Ptolemy's Geography. Unfortunately I cannot find a complete copy of Ptolemy's Geography online. But I did find this summary of the whole Macoraba thing which seems quite trustworthy (it is written by a Muslim history teacher who is able to seperate real history from hagiography):

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091231160732AAlTMZx
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The famous greek geographer Ptolemy mentioned Macoraba as a city in the Arabian interior. Some people wanted to assume that Macoraba was actually Mecca. Macoraba had appeared recently, with respect to Ptolemy’s time. This assumption would result in the conclusion that Mecca was built around the middle of the 2nd century A.D. However, even if this were true, it wouldn’t support the claim that Mecca was an old city existing from the time of Abraham.
Upon further study of the facts concerning Macoraba, we can conclude with certainty that Macoraba can’t be Mecca, and we can refute the idea that Mecca was built in the 2nd century A.D. All the facts point to the historical argument that Mecca was constructed in the 4th century A.D. Since Macoraba is not pronounced similar to Mecca, the scholar Crone suggested that the location of Maqarib, near Yathrib, was actually Macoraba. Maqarib is mentioned by Yaqut al-Hamawi, an Arab geographer who lived from 1179 to1229 A.D., in his geographical dictionary Mujam al-Buldan.[lx][60] This location is more acceptable than Mecca for the modern-day location of Macoraba, because Maqarib is closer in pronunciation to Macoraba than Mecca. Another reason is that Maqarib, though it does not exactly fit the documented location of Macoraba, is closer to the location, according to the latitude and longitude of Ptolemy, than Mecca is to the documented location of Macoraba.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #51 - August 29, 2012, 08:00 PM

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religions started in order to consolidate power

I agree, allat. But I think it was Mo himself who did the power consolidation through religion, not people after him. Muslims recognize that he was both a political and religious figure.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #52 - August 29, 2012, 08:03 PM

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Actually the link you provided does not even mention Macoraba.

You're getting sidetracked.

Let's assume that Macoraba is not Mecca. How is that relevant to whether or not Mecca existed and was a trading route?
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Islam-The UnTold Story free download
Reply #53 - August 29, 2012, 08:04 PM

Here is a link for downloading the new provocative documentary by Tom Holland. (The doc is also available on youtube and channel4.com in certain countries).

[LINK REMOVED]
(the 'download' button is located at the bottom of the page in yellow)

I do not know if the claims made by Tom Holland are accurate but it should definitely be an interseting watch! Here is the description from http://www.channel4.com/programmes/islam-the-untold-story

"Many historians are challenging long-held opinions of the origins of Islam. Tom Holland examines whether the religion was born fully formed, or if it evolved over many years.

Historian Tom Holland explores how a new religion - Islam - emerged from the seedbed of the ancient world, and asks what we really know for certain about the rise of Islam. "

Mod edit: Please do not post links to copyrighted content on the forum.

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Re: Islam-The UnTold Story free download
Reply #54 - August 29, 2012, 08:09 PM

Click me.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #55 - August 29, 2012, 08:17 PM

Quote from: Abood on August 29, 2012, 08:00 PM
I agree, allat. But I think it was Mo himself who did the power consolidation through religion, not people after him. Muslims recognize that he was both a political and religious figure.

Yeah I think that's definitely part of the truth. But once he died (rather unexpectedly and with no succession plan), his empire was in shambles. I think it's possible that both things are true: that Mo himself used Islam to consolidate power and that once he died, others took up the mantle and expanded it ideologically as most rulers do, to rally the masses, even beyond what Mo himself may have imagined.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #56 - August 29, 2012, 08:33 PM

Actually this could help liberate Muslims from Islam's imperialistic history, if they sat and thought about the implications. Islam could become like Christianity, all about love and bunnies, without the burden of imperialistic ambitions. Maybe that is exactly why certain groups (IERA?) are resisting these findings/analyses.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #57 - August 29, 2012, 08:56 PM

Quote from: Abood on August 29, 2012, 08:03 PM
You're getting sidetracked.

Let's assume that Macoraba is not Mecca. How is that relevant to whether or not Mecca existed and was a trading route?

Because if Mecca is not Macoraba then we are once again left with no sources to the existence of Mecca before Sirat Rasul-Allah (written in about 700 CE).
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #58 - August 29, 2012, 08:57 PM

^True (@Allat's post). I think the more Islam is becoming transparent to the world at large (i.e. not just kept within certain communities, and the rest just saying 'let them keep their culture/religion' 'we have no right to comment on it etc') the softer the religion is becoming in the general to accommodate for a larger group of 'potential' members to take into it or just to like the religion (just as any form of club). Compromises are being made, and soon you'll find that, like mainstream Christianity, it has to become a hippy style, diluted due to human nature. This is where a multi-cultural society comes in handy. The apparent 'growth' of Islam will probably be it's demise.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #59 - August 29, 2012, 09:01 PM

Quote from: Abood on August 29, 2012, 07:44 PM
Really? I find Islamic history quite fascinating. Mostly because, as the documentary illustrates, there's a large black hole surrounding it.

Yeah I agree, I find it really fascinating. The fact that we know so little about the origins of such an important belief system in the modern world. Arguably the most important belief system in the extent of power it has over such a huge ammount of people.

The whole Kaaba/Mecca thing is fascinating. For example before they built the Kaaba cube building thing there, was there just a volcanic rock sitting in the middle of a valley with a bunch of half naked pagans dancing around it? Or was there simply nothing there? Was it just an empty piece of desert? This stuff is soooo fascinating!
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