Psychology of Religion

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- Ed Lifton
- Member
- offline
Psychology of Religion
OP - September 28, 2012, 09:32 AM

This blog is about psychology of religion. The main ideas are expanded in some YouTube clips.

The first issue is that humans are very good attributing minds to others, because we have to be able to work out our position in the social group. A consequence of this is that we attribute minds to invisible agencies – spirits of nature, ancestors, or human-type deities.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTLs6V7lcMQ “other minds”

When we think about religion, our brains are working in the same places as when we think about parents. For example, it turns out that many people who mystic visions have temporal-lobe epilepsy, because this is where our face-memories are stored.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JzwOlyo6zs “brain”

Submission to the leader becomes particularly important in desperate battles. Each of the three monotheisms have been forged in battles, e.g. Badr for the Muslims.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMAhj1O2xfM “Allah the General”

Animism is the natural type of religion for hunter-gatherers
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqQjX8a1AD4 animism

Polytheism developed from Animism in early settled agriculture, by dropping ancestors, spirits of nature, etc. but keeping variety of tribal leaders, e.g. Thor, Wotan and one top warlord. Roman religion went: Animism → Polytheism → God-Emperor → Christianity
www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-CdKxOZdDU polytheism

Monotheism relegated the tribal leaders to angels or prophets and promoted one to supreme deity. Islam kept the Moon as a harbinger, djinn as minor devils, and various archangels.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=irKzFbw_0pM monotheism

Women lost power when inherited agricultural property became usual (patriarchy) and were equally relegated in the divine realm. Judahism stopped having female prophets, Mary Magdalene got demoted from Jesus’s partner to prostitute, and Islam kept only Maryam Ibn Isa with a non-speaking part.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2tcZ4uS49Y goddesses

Ethics and knowledge was believed to come by god revealing himself to prophets for a few hundred years. This freeweheeling epoch was the time of city states, before they merged into bigger kingdoms and empires. Then the king needed religion to be mediated by archbishops, ayatollahs, or the sanhedrin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fNwSAIO-Pg prophets

Narcissism is a major psychological theme and refers to the infant’s need to be special and the centre of adult attention. The flip-side is narcissistic rage. Those who are provoked to rage by “insults to the prophet” may be narcissistically vulnerable. Watch this space for a new YouTube clip.

A reading list is being prepared. Scholarly comments are welcome. Translations into Arabic, Urdu etc. are welcome.
- hypocrucifier
- Ending the tyranny of nonsense
- Pub Regular
- The emancipation of TRUTH from perceptions
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #1 - September 28, 2012, 11:54 AM

Quote
Narcissism is a major psychological theme and refers to the infant’s need to be special and the centre of adult attention. The flip-side is narcissistic rage.

This is more common than you would expect.

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
Thomas Paine

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #2 - September 28, 2012, 11:58 AM

Thanks Ed Lifton.

Would you like to start a thread in the Introductions section of the forum, introducing yourself for everyone here?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Yume
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #3 - September 28, 2012, 12:03 PM

Thanks for the vids.

I wish I had an arabic book on the psychology of religion. This topic is very important.
- Ed Lifton
- Member
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #4 - September 28, 2012, 08:39 PM

I am a clinical psychologist with additional training in linguistics.
My interest is to make psychological theories and research widely available so that people can reflected on the personal meanings and religion.
Discussion rather than polemic is the requirement. It may turn out that I have been wrong all along, and Gabriel really did announce the brith of Jesus and whsiper in the ear of Mohammed. But I still doubt it.
Psycholgoy is not automatically atheist, though it is certainly quite hard to adhere strongly to any particular religion once you have taken a wide psychological perspective!

The Muslims with whom I work professionally are often aware of psychological issues, eg. the OCD possibilities of the wudu, or guilt and fear of Hell.
Some issues give them more difficulty. One is the idea that breakdown of Islamic belief will result in an immediate wave of father-daughter incest. Does anybody have relevant evidence?
Another is narcissism. Can one feel valuable and special if not selected by God, ane we are only specks of dust in a godless cosmos?
And how should one deal with the rage if I feel that someone has "insulted the prophet", i.e. lowered my public prestige.
Good two-way communication with speakers of Arabic, Urdu, Bahasa is needed. A bit of German would help too, as I am struggling with Luxenberg's book on the Quran/ a-Qeryana.
Get in touch.

Ed
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #5 - September 28, 2012, 08:47 PM

Very interesting background Ed.

Would you like to cut and paste that and put it in the Introductions forum as a new thread? It'll be seen by more people there.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=2.0

Its a way of making friends, and I think people will find your background interesting

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- dr_sloth
- Pub Regular
- Orthodox Atheist
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #6 - September 28, 2012, 08:53 PM

you need some better titles for your videos.
- BerberElla
- Class A'sexual
- Creator Goddess
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #7 - September 29, 2012, 07:51 AM

Quote from: Ed Lifton on September 28, 2012, 08:39 PM

Some issues give them more difficulty. One is the idea that breakdown of Islamic belief will result in an immediate wave of father-daughter incest. Does anybody have relevant evidence?

wait, I've never heard this fear, what muslims actually think this?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #8 - September 29, 2012, 11:58 AM

Quote
Quote from: Ed Lifton on September 28, 2012, 08:39 PM
I am a clinical psychologist with additional training in linguistics.
My interest is to make psychological theories and research widely available so that people can reflected on the personal meanings and religion.
Discussion rather than polemic is the requirement. It may turn out that I have been wrong all along, and Gabriel really did announce the brith of Jesus and whsiper in the ear of Mohammed. But I still doubt it.
Psycholgoy is not automatically atheist, though it is certainly quite hard to adhere strongly to any particular religion once you have taken a wide psychological perspective!

The Muslims with whom I work professionally are often aware of psychological issues, eg. the OCD possibilities of the wudu, or guilt and fear of Hell.
Some issues give them more difficulty. One is the idea that breakdown of Islamic belief will result in an immediate wave of father-daughter incest. Does anybody have relevant evidence?
Another is narcissism. Can one feel valuable and special if not selected by God, ane we are only specks of dust in a godless cosmos?
And how should one deal with the rage if I feel that someone has "insulted the prophet", i.e. lowered my public prestige.
Good two-way communication with speakers of Arabic, Urdu, Bahasa is needed. A bit of German would help too, as I am struggling with Luxenberg's book on the Quran/ a-Qeryana.
Get in touch.

Ed

Quote from: BerberElla on September 29, 2012, 07:51 AM
wait, I've never heard this fear, what muslims actually think this?

well I have heard lot of shit about Islam , I have read lot of shit in religious books ...more from Quran..... and I have written a lot against Islam but I too never heard that. I wonder whether Mr. Ed Lifton heard/read that from Muslims or Muslim haters? Incidentally I am no lover of Islam.

Any ways speaking about relevant evidence on that issue, Foolish haters take a verse from Quran and they do similar acrobats as Muslim Intellectual fools do to make that book as manual to discover advanced scientific theories, {{hence it must be allahgod word... whatever..}} where as these Muslim haters take same words make it as one of the worst book a man ever read..

So that verse is this, let me put couple of translations of that here

Quote
Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri: And it is He Who created man from water, then appointed relatives and in-laws for him; and your Lord is All Able.

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who has created man from water: then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage: for thy Lord has power (over all things).

Pickthal: And He it is Who hath created man from water, and hath appointed for him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever Powerful.

Well those underlined words from that verse 54 of surah 25 is often used to blame Islam on that issue. But I can NOT do that. Whole Quran is bullshit so that is also bullshit ., you can make anything you like out these words ~~He established relationships of lineage and marriage.~~

But we must not forget there is ENOUGH SHIT IN ISLAMIC BOOKS.. such as "daughter in-law getting married to Prophet of Islam" ...THAT BLOODY THING IS AS CRIMINAL AS INCEST.. whole thing is bull shit.. it is full of shit.. but don't attach that "father-daughter incest" shit to Islam, unless you have real proof from your Muslim friends with references from Islamic scriptures Mr. Ed Lifton

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- moi
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #9 - October 04, 2012, 08:46 PM

Bit rambly the following!

I am currently reading Richard Sennett, Together, The Rituals, pleasures and politics of co-operation, my background is more in sociology and urban policy.

He has a fascinating discussion about child development. My impression is that religious teachings and rituals may actually prevent the natural development of co-operative ways of getting on with each other, as well as having a civilising effect, for example the Anglican blessing - peace be with you. Islam has similar greetings and blessings, but interestingly only towards those who are part of the fold, and there is a huge amount of checking questions - are you still a believer. Similar stories are far more common in the US - what church do you go to?

What are the institutions doing?

I am a fan of Marlene Winnell who has proposed "religious trauma syndrome".

I found William Dalrymple Nine Lives very valuable in describing some very different Muslim lives.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- sturmgewehr
- Illyro-Thracian
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #10 - October 05, 2012, 04:39 PM

hey, good vids over there
- Yume
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #11 - October 05, 2012, 05:12 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 29, 2012, 11:58 AM

well I have heard lot of shit about Islam , I have read lot of shit in religious books ...more from Quran..... and I have written a lot against Islam but I too never heard that. I wonder whether Mr. Ed Lifton heard/read that from Muslims or Muslim haters? Incidentally I am no lover of Islam.

Quote from: BerberElla on September 29, 2012, 07:51 AM
wait, I've never heard this fear, what muslims actually think this?

Quote
Some issues give them more difficulty. One is the idea that breakdown of Islamic belief will result in an immediate wave of father-daughter incest.

This is true! I can say it is true in conservative Arab societies. Apostasy is a scandal here, just like getting raped. Scandal means no one is going to marry you, which means dad and brothers can have sex with you if they feel like it.

There was a Saudi girl who got raped by her father and brother when they knew that a man has raped her. I remember reading about this a few years ago. She wasn't an apostate but that fear exists anyway.
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #12 - October 05, 2012, 05:43 PM

Bloody hell Yume. Is this really a widely held value and idea?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Tonyt
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #13 - October 05, 2012, 06:00 PM

Quote from: Yume on October 05, 2012, 05:12 PM
There was a Saudi girl who got raped by her father and brother when they knew that a man has raped her. I remember reading about this a few years ago. She wasn't an apostate but that fear exists anyway.

That's horrible. But if it was a story in the news then that means that it was not typical right? I mean if it is news worthy then it must be a rare thing, I hope. What happened to the father and her brother? Did they go to jail?
- Yume
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #14 - October 05, 2012, 07:02 PM

I don't know what happened to them. It is not a common thing, but some fathers/brothers here definitely have incestuous desires >.<" If they were evil enough they would do it with their sisters/daughters if they got raped or whatever. I think this is how many men in the Arab world think. "If a girl cannot be called virgin/chaste any longer, why don't I have sex with her?" Incest doesn't matter to some of them I guess (unless they are worried about their own reputation!) When I told two Muslim guys about my apostasy (I know I was naive but I thought they were open-minded enough to listen to me) they asked me to have sex. One asked me indirectly, but the other did it very directly! They thought I was a whore just because of my apostasy.

Here is a fatwa by Sheikh Mohammed AlAraifi where he said a father shouldn't stay alone with his daughter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_-xaALccNc
- Sprout
- You are alive, live!
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #15 - October 05, 2012, 07:13 PM

According to Hadith incest is punishable by (surprise surprise) death

Scholars are unanimous on this point (well, the scholars that salafis would listen to)

"Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

What apple stores are like.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
- Stardust
- Founder of Neo-Hippiism
- Ex-Muslim
- Beneath The Veil
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #16 - October 05, 2012, 07:31 PM

I think it just stems from the fact that anything related to sex in anyway is seen as taboo, so that even creates a divide between normal brother/father - sister/daughter relationships, so rather than seeing the daughter as that, their daughter this separation causes a more 'She's a girl' focus rather than on the existing relation.

..

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
- Ed Lifton
- Member
- offline
Re: Psychology of Religion
Reply #17 - October 31, 2012, 07:43 PM

Inhibition of sexual desire is particularly an issue for Catholics and Muslims. Hindus and many Protestants are less bothered about it.
It is certainly true that the breakdown of religious belief often leads to an increased awareness of sexuality. The poet Byron is famous for celebrating this.
Yet most atheists manage to balance desire, affection, care for children, and propriety.
Freudian psychologists would see the belief - the loss of religious authority will lead to a rush to incest - as in indication of the amount of mental energy being used to control desire.
The task for those who abandon religion is to acknowledge the force of desire but manage it an a constructive way.
- Ed Lifton
- Member
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #18 - March 30, 2013, 04:44 PM

The integration of desire in adult relationships is part of being human.
As sexuality is kept well under wraps (or the chadoor!) in Islamic countries, it is hard to know what actually happens.
For example is homosexuality common? Visitors to Egypt or Iran often think so, but perhaps physical closeness between men does not progress to sex.
Do any CEMB members have good data on this?
- purelyatheist
- Pub Regular
- Be real
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #19 - May 10, 2014, 11:35 AM

I found some very helpful links

http://www.marlenewinell.net/page/leaving-fold-guide-former

http://awaypoint.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/religious-trauma-syndrome-is-it-real/

"I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

"This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
- purelyatheist
- Pub Regular
- Be real
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #20 - May 11, 2014, 02:54 PM

you guys have to watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id70RLR4GeE&list=PLBB01DA3912B506B5

"I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

"This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #21 - May 11, 2014, 03:31 PM

Come back Ed!

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Kodanshi
- La solitude s'eprend de mon coeur
- Ex-Muslim
- *Careful Plague & Scarred Joy*
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #22 - May 11, 2014, 08:29 PM

Quote from: Ed Lifton on September 28, 2012, 09:32 AM
humans are very good attributing minds to others, because we have to be able to work out our position in the social group.

According to Daniel C. Dennett’s BREAKING THE SPELL this goes deeper than social groups. It is actually evolutionary, with our ancestral forebears having to assign agency to most things they met in order to work out whether they were safe, or about to get killed and eaten.
- Rubaya
- Pub Regular
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #23 - May 16, 2014, 04:09 PM

When I told two Muslim guys about my apostasy (I know I was naive but I thought they were open-minded enough to listen to me) they asked me to have sex. One asked me indirectly, but the other did it very directly! They thought I was a whore just because of my apostasy.

One of my very close and very supportive friends after hearing about my apostasy asked if a stranger wanted to have sex with me, would I do it since I am no longer a Muslim? I wanted to tell him about the slave concubines in Islam but hung up due excess anger and because he was the kind of guy who would say it was good as God had sanctioned it!
- purelyatheist
- Pub Regular
- Be real
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #24 - May 16, 2014, 04:31 PM

Rubaya I had a similiar but not as bad experience with a muslim guy friend of mine, he became more open sexually and started making more inappropriate comments to me and when i was muslim he was VERY respectful and careful around me

"I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

"This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #25 - May 16, 2014, 04:35 PM

Just because we're sinful, wicked apostates now doesn't mean we don't have standards when it comes to men.
- bogart
- Pub Regular
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #26 - May 16, 2014, 06:11 PM

What is shocking is that these "men" lose their whole moral compass regarding sex when someone else is not a Muslim. They are only "pious" when around other Muslims... I call people like them "Friday Muslims" similar to "Sunday Christians". They are only religious when obligated by social pressure. The facade drops once the social pressure is absent.
- purelyatheist
- Pub Regular
- Be real
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #27 - May 16, 2014, 08:17 PM

this male friend of mine admited to me tht he mastubates, something he wouldnt admit to a muslim girl

"I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

"This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
- three
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Psychology of Religion
Reply #28 - May 17, 2014, 01:38 AM

Quote from: bogart on May 16, 2014, 06:11 PM
What is shocking is that these "men" lose their whole moral compass regarding sex when someone else is not a Muslim. They are only "pious" when around other Muslims... I call people like them "Friday Muslims" similar to "Sunday Christians". They are only religious when obligated by social pressure. The facade drops once the social pressure is absent.

It's like house and barn, bogart. You don't worry about passing wind around the animals. I don't see it as a Friday Muslim phenomena, I see it as a relaxation of mores around those who are not ¨chosen¨, not worth the respect. I would rather that you were right, but I have heard so much bad said about kafir by Muslims that I cannot help but hold this opinion.
Not all Muslims, there are those who grant humanity to all, but I have heard so much ¨better a bad Muslim than a kafir¨, that it makes me feel ill.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »