I've converted...

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- zomzom
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I've converted...
OP - October 13, 2012, 09:27 PM

... From being a hardline Atheist Agnostic to.... An Ignostic.

The more I think about it, I think it all comes down to the actual definition, I personally do not believe in a God which is defined by religious scripture I believe it carries too many internal and external contradictions, I think there can be some abstract truth (which isn't contradictory) but just cannot be shown to be true (this of course ties in with Kurt Godel's Incompleteness Theorems) so I think for that I have to abandon my position on atheism, I am reluctant in doing so, but I believe it makes the most rational sense to do so.

This is why I find it hilarious and quite childish when some adopt the position of God does not exist, because there isn't any evidence for him. That is so fucking childish (granted one should not use the God of the Gaps argument to then try to say God exists where we lack understanding no) but just because we might not have evidence for something for the moment does not mean that it does not exist, that is an assumption, it's basically the legal doctrine, i.e. the assumption the person is innocent until proven guilty, sometimes there are some abstract truths which can never be shown to be true.

So I can't to get everyone elses position on this, how do you guys define yourself and to you even think about it much? do you think about your position being wrong?

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #1 - October 13, 2012, 09:37 PM

It is not to do with evidence but logical impossibility and history.

Gods have to be defined as supernatural, if they are part of the universe they are theoretically explainable and therefore not gods. Someone can write an equation with a variable "god" in it and see what happens if they wish!

We also have a clear history of how and when the concept of the supernatural was invented, as a posited entity to explain, as we use atoms electrons etc.

As we have rejected phlogiston, so we may reject gods.

The complete lack of evidence is icing on the cake!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #2 - October 13, 2012, 09:56 PM

The only thing that atheists have in common is the lack of belief in gods, not the positive assertion that gods do not exist.

Against the ruin of the world, there
is only one defense: the creative act.

-- Kenneth Rexroth
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #3 - October 13, 2012, 10:02 PM

Quote from: moi on October 13, 2012, 09:37 PM
It is not to do with evidence but logical impossibility and history.

Proof/evidence is only relative to the system it is based on (i.e. axioms) outside that system it might not be true. It can be explained it just cannot be proven it is complete outside the system it is based on i.e. outside the axioms. It might be true, but it cannot be proven to be true.

Quote
Gods have to be defined as supernatural, if they are part of the universe they are theoretically explainable and therefore not gods.

Who says they HAVE to be defined as supernatural? and as I said, there some abstract truths which you simply cannot show to be true they are not verifiable or falsifiable.

Quote
As we have rejected phlogiston, so we may reject gods.

I think that should be included in the history of fire. Thats a real laugh.

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #4 - October 13, 2012, 10:06 PM

So I assume you've become an ignostic about the tooth fairy as well ?

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #5 - October 13, 2012, 10:13 PM

Quote from: arX on October 13, 2012, 09:56 PM
The only thing that atheists have in common is the lack of belief in gods, not the positive assertion that gods do not exist.

You've not met Positive Atheists then. I have a friend who is a Positive Atheists he used to post on this forum under the handle Metaphysical Naturalist. He used to argue that if there is a God he rejects it and he would use all his energy to fight it, if he died and found himself in the presence of God.

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #6 - October 13, 2012, 10:17 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on October 13, 2012, 10:06 PM
So I assume you've become an ignostic about the tooth fairy as well ?

I reject the idea that a tooth fairy - as defined by a dictionary does exist, I believe it (such a defined entity) is logically incompatible with reality.

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #7 - October 13, 2012, 10:22 PM

^

And you think a deity that created the universe is alot more probable than the tooth fairy ??

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #8 - October 13, 2012, 10:32 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on October 13, 2012, 10:22 PM
^

And you think a deity that created the universe is alot more probable than the tooth fairy ??

No. I simply don't believe in a such a deity that is currently described by religious scripture of even the dictionary, it carries contradictions. We would first have to establish the definition, not everyone has a stringent scriptural definition of a God. Some have a more of a pantheistic definition of a God, which may or may not exist, it might just exist as an abstract truth (I'd like to think that) or it might not exist at all. If such a "God" does exist you'll only be able to experience it not show it/prove it.

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #9 - October 13, 2012, 11:47 PM

Quote from: King Tut on October 13, 2012, 09:27 PM
... From being a hardline Atheist Agnostic to.... An Ignostic.

....................

hmm.. that sounds like some humanistic Judaism, or humanistic Christianity or Humanistic Islam.. Humanistic Hinduism.. humanistic Buddhism, humanistic Jainism . humanist Tutism king Tut.. Who cares what "ism" any one follows, as long as one uses simple golden rule to run the life, you can get away with any Ism Tut..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #10 - October 13, 2012, 11:49 PM

I want my own kind of God which makes me a leader like, with power and lots of sexy women as carers, because I like bubble baths and to be dressed in the morning by my wife.

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #11 - October 13, 2012, 11:55 PM

Quote from: King Tut on October 13, 2012, 11:49 PM
I want my own kind of God which makes me a leader like, with power and lots of sexy women as carers, because I like bubble baths and to be dressed in the morning by my wife.

Masha allah.. masha allah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7N6ZstuZJY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiYsy5I84a0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENz_lgwlMXA

Mash Potato .. Alugobi..parata mashaallah.. mashaallah

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #12 - October 14, 2012, 01:35 AM

Quote from: King Tut on October 13, 2012, 10:32 PM
No. I simply don't believe in a such a deity that is currently described by religious scripture of even the dictionary, it carries contradictions. We would first have to establish the definition, not everyone has a stringent scriptural definition of a God. Some have a more of a pantheistic definition of a God, which may or may not exist, it might just exist as an abstract truth (I'd like to think that) or it might not exist at all. If such a "God" does exist you'll only be able to experience it not show it/prove it.

I'm at the same place you are now.

I've read so much about NDEs and OBEs that I wanted to experience it for myself...well not a NDE obviously. I used to be a member of this spiritual forum (forgot my password though)

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/

They were really nice even though I couldn't relate to any of their experiences at all XD I read up on their OBE experiences and followed their instructions one night. Everything they said I'd experience was happening...electrical sensation, buzzing and I felt myself start to rise. Of course what happened next they also warned about- getting totally freaked out. I did fight it and it all ended. Yep I'm a wuss. But I'm thinking of trying it again just to confirm it.

A relative of mine had an NDE, she described things that happened while she was unconscious that she couldn't have known about. She also described what others felt..seeing their deceased relatives and a feeling of "unconditional love."

So yes I am open to "spiritual" experience. For one it doesn't just call for blindly following old scriptures in a book.

"In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

"The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #13 - October 14, 2012, 02:06 AM

Quote from: King Tut on October 13, 2012, 10:32 PM
No. I simply don't believe in a such a deity that is currently described by religious scripture of even the dictionary, it carries contradictions. We would first have to establish the definition, not everyone has a stringent scriptural definition of a God. Some have a more of a pantheistic definition of a God, which may or may not exist, it might just exist as an abstract truth (I'd like to think that) or it might not exist at all. If such a "God" does exist you'll only be able to experience it not show it/prove it.

Since your beliefs are not harming anyone I have no problem with them. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #14 - October 14, 2012, 06:59 AM

Good4u

In answer to your question, the issue of 'God' no longer concerns me, whatsoever. Until I see proof that is.

"Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

What apple stores are like.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #15 - October 14, 2012, 06:27 PM

Quote from: King Tut on October 13, 2012, 09:27 PM

This is why I find it hilarious and quite childish when some adopt the position of God does not exist, because there isn't any evidence for him. That is so fucking childish (granted one should not use the God of the Gaps argument to then try to say God exists where we lack understanding no) but just because we might not have evidence for something for the moment does not mean that it does not exist, that is an assumption, it's basically the legal doctrine, i.e. the assumption the person is innocent until proven guilty, sometimes there are some abstract truths which can never be shown to be true.

So I can't to get everyone elses position on this, how do you guys define yourself and to you even think about it much? do you think about your position being wrong?

I think u haven't converted, I think u got confused, I was not aware that reasonable atheists claimed God does not Exist, that is not what an Atheist is, an Atheist is someone who does not BELIEVE in God or someone who hasn't seen yet enough evidence or proof for God, what u talking about is GNOSTIC ATHEISM, what u talking about is Atheists who claim to have knowledge that God does not exist.

All this Ignostic thing seems like a bunch of dishonesty to me.

After reading ur post I realized that by Ignosticism u meant Agnostic Atheism, Agnosticism by no way refers to belief, when it comes to belief u either believe or don't, people who identify themselves as Agnostics in terms of Belief are being dishonest to themselves, Agnosticism has to do with knowledge not belief, u can be an Agnostic Theist who says I believe in God but I don't know if he exists or not or an Agnostic Atheist who claims to not believe in God and has no knowledge whether a God or diety exists or not.
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #16 - October 14, 2012, 07:32 PM

^

I find the whole playing around with definitions thing pretty pointless.

So many fuckin misconceptions about the words Atheist and Agnostic that I just refer to myself as a naturalist and skeptic.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Re: I've converted...
Reply #17 - October 14, 2012, 07:42 PM

I think it all really comes down to epistemology, there is a misunderstanding of what spirituality/god is my problem is not that either of these things exist or don't exist, I think it's the wrong criteria to use such a dualistic philosophy, since I completely think it comes down the definition, I personally feel you can valid description of a "god" within a system, but you'll not be able to prove this outside that system. It will come down to it either being priori knowledge or posteriori knowledge so you'll be limited to that particular set.

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #18 - October 14, 2012, 08:04 PM

For example if someone asks me if there life after death, I will say "I have no reason to believe there is life after death" - that is based on priori knowledge, i.e. a justified true belief, but justified true beliefs are not really sufficient for knowledge I cannot possibly know definitely if there is life after death while I am alive, I am limited here, i.e. this is a fallible position. But if I die and I find there is life after death then this is posteriori knowledge. But while I am alive I am limited to a fallible position and a justified true belief that there is no life after death. But I don't have knowledge of this, there is a limit.

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #19 - October 14, 2012, 09:47 PM

Refusal to believe until proof is given is a rational position; denial of all outside of our own limited experience is absurd - Annie Besant

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #20 - November 30, 2012, 11:41 AM

Quote from: Jema on October 14, 2012, 09:47 PM
Refusal to believe until proof is given is a rational position; denial of all outside of our own limited experience is absurd - Annie Besant

Which I agree with, but knowledge is slightly different to proof, you can have knowledge about something without being able to prove it. So, that is the particular paradoxical problem, a kind of solipsistic problem. It comes down to your own subjective internal threshold of the upper-limit of what you accept as evidence, without it being blatant and irrational denial.

"[T]here are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know.” —United States Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld

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Re: I've converted...
Reply #21 - November 30, 2012, 01:58 PM

im an ignostic apatheist
i doubt that apatheist is a real word. But I like to think that it means that I dont believe in gods, and I dont care.
Im not going to start worshipping one if it was proven to be true.
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