polytheism / monotheism

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- deusvult
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Reply #30 - October 19, 2012, 09:12 PM

Quote
But God has always - sent his message. Else maybe whole life wouldn't exist - be of different forms and under different laws. I don't really see the logic of your repose - when you claim there is a

Without God's message we would only be judged on how good of a person we are, as supposedly those who haven't heard the message are judged. It would have been better if he never shared a message at all.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Reply #31 - October 19, 2012, 09:15 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 09:05 PM
..........
- - -

Also - Muslims consider God - to be the creator of Universe - and as an all powerful being - he simply has the authority to do what he likes.

Yap that is another fact .. So many facts from the posts of AminRiaz

God is "He".. He created everything .. God is big "He" has lots of liquid ., It comes like a river from HE GOD spine and the rib bones to create all the stuff., .. So much of creation from there..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #32 - October 19, 2012, 09:16 PM

Quote
Without God's message we would only be judged on how good of a person we are, as supposedly those who haven't heard the message are judged. It would have been better if he never shared a message at all.

According to Islam that wouldn't work - the purpose was for Humans to always be guided. Else God could have created more angels - that never disobey.
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Reply #33 - October 19, 2012, 09:17 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 09:05 PM
I don't get this - I am stating Muslim beliefs as accurately as I can

I know - but the 'exceptions' to those who will be roasted alive for eternity are like weasel words to mitigate the horror of this belief.

Just as you consider this without reflection to be a good thing, because your conception is that Allah's will is a good thing, so do other reflect on its moral degeneracy.

You are honest though. A lot of Muslims try to deny that this is part of orthodox Islamic belief.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #34 - October 19, 2012, 09:24 PM

I am not replying to anything by "yeezevee". He can ridicule me - that is simply his business. But I don't feel the need to reply. However - one can pose and ask questions - without attempting to ridicule - if one wishes to be answered. Else if yeezevee is happy enough - and doesn't need a response - sure enjoy yourself.

But it is keep responding with quotes of what i have said . . . I though s/he might.
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Reply #35 - October 19, 2012, 09:24 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 09:16 PM
According to Islam that wouldn't work - the purpose was for Humans to always be guided. Else God could have created more angels - that never disobey.

To say humans were created to be guided flies in the face of judging those who haven't heard the message by their own merits. It implied some kind of deficiency in the plan on getting this word out. How can all humans be created to be guided, but then there are some humans who won't hear the message to be guided?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Reply #36 - October 19, 2012, 09:29 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 09:24 PM
I am not replying to anything by "yeezevee". He can ridicule me - that is simply his business. But I don't feel the need to reply. However - one can pose and ask questions - without attempting to ridicule - if one wishes to be answered. Else if yeezevee is happy enough - and doesn't need a response - sure enjoy yourself.

But it is keep responding with quotes of what i have said . . . I though s/he might.

Amin.. You have full freedom what you want to do in CEMB., I consider fellows like you as assets of this forum.

You don't need to read and you don't need to reply to me.. I sure enjoy myself seeing others enjoying Riaz. So don't worry about yeezevee.. I am just foolish .. Please continue to read and write. That is more important..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #37 - October 19, 2012, 09:31 PM

wow yeezevee you took that pretty nice.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Reply #38 - October 19, 2012, 09:32 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 09:24 PM
I am not replying to anything by "yeezevee".

Ok, so reply to me instead. How about your answer to this:

Quote from: Tonyt on October 19, 2012, 08:35 PM
There is not a single people that were not in contact with Jewish civilization (i.e. in places like East Asia, Australia, Americas, etc.) that got any of the same messages that were sent down to Muhammad, about circumcision, not eating pork, hijab, hating dogs, 4 wives, not worshiping idols, etc. Only people that were in contact with Jewish civilization seemed to have heard that message.

Does that not seem highly suspicious to you AmniRiaz?
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Reply #39 - October 19, 2012, 09:33 PM

Quote
To say humans were created to be guided flies in the face of judging those who haven't heard the message by their own merits. It implied some kind of deficiency in the plan.

Unless there is a such wide spread polytheism and for generation - that no one preaches any other faith that is regarding one God - then maybe. However that is extremely rare - hence Islam - a single faith rather than many.
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Reply #40 - October 19, 2012, 09:34 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on October 19, 2012, 08:27 PM
And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. 51.56

Quote from: billy on October 19, 2012, 08:50 PM
Five billion people alive today are not only going to be tortured eternally in hell according to your theology, they deserve to be tortured in hell eternally.

Innocent children, women and men deserve to be tortured without end.

This is a theology of menacing psychopathy and sadism.

You are answering the best you can but the fact still remains you're making excuses for and trying to rationalize the most evil of acts AminRiaz.

"In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

"The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
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Reply #41 - October 19, 2012, 09:34 PM

Quote
Ok, so reply to me instead. How about your answer to this:

I am sure I have already answered that.
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Reply #42 - October 19, 2012, 09:37 PM

Quote
wow yeezevee you took that pretty nice.

If the person is serious - all s/he has to do is - drop the attitude.
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Reply #43 - October 19, 2012, 09:38 PM

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You are answering the best you can but the fact still remains you're making excuses for and trying to rationalize the most evil of acts AminRiaz.

Simply your claims - I don't see things same way as you do. If I am making "excuses" then you can always highlight specific examples.
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Reply #44 - October 19, 2012, 09:40 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 09:33 PM
Unless there is a such wide spread polytheism and for generation - that no one preaches any other faith that is regarding one God - then maybe. However that is extremely rare - hence Islam - a single faith rather than many.

Cop out answer. It's the polytheists fault God couldn't get his message out to everything. God seems pretty weak in that case. This sounds more like backward rationalizing why the world doesn't appear as one would expect under an all powerful God who created a species only to make them obey him. It sounds more like an attempt to explain why other people who are just as good as any Muslim won't burn because the logical conclusion of a universal religion is pretty horrifying to everyone be it Christianity or Islam.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Reply #45 - October 19, 2012, 09:46 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 08:43 PM
Muslims do not hate dogs

In Islam, dogs are considered ritually unclean and must be kept outside of the house. What other culture that had no contact with Islam also believed this? And why was this message not sent to any other prophets?

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 08:43 PM
Not all Prophets had exact same law

It is not that there are minor differences between the religious traditions of the various peoples of the world, it is that they are all totally different. No religious tradition that did not have contact with Islam resembles Islam at all in any way whatsoever.

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 08:43 PM
where things like dietary laws or circumcision.

So why an earth did Allah insist that Semites must be circumsized but other people shouldn't?

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 08:43 PM
Not worshiping Idols - has ALWAYS been forbidden.

Name a culture that had no contact with Islam where idols were forbidden.
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Reply #46 - October 19, 2012, 09:54 PM

Quote
Cop out answer. It's the polytheists fault God couldn't get his message out to everything. God seems pretty weak in that case. This sounds more like backward rationalizing why the world doesn't appear as one would expect under an all powerful God who created a species only to make them obey him. It sounds more like an attempt to explain why other people who are just as good as any Muslim won't burn because the logical conclusion of a universal religion is pretty horrifying to everyone be it Christianity or Islam.

How is it a cop out? Simply stating something is cop out doesn't make it so. And I don't automatically get your reasoning - why it is a cop out. If you did see it that way.

I don't see how you got to the line "It's the polytheists fault God couldn't get his message out to everything." Why would it be polytheist fault?

"This sounds more like backward rationalizing why the world doesn't appear as one would expect under an all powerful God who created a species only to make them obey him. "

Humans were created to recognize and believe in one god. Accept and obey.

- - -

"It sounds more like an attempt to explain why other people who are just as good as any Muslim"

This isn't about good or bad - it is about belief in God.
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Reply #47 - October 19, 2012, 10:03 PM

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In Islam, dogs are considered ritually unclean and must be kept outside of the house.

To some extent they are considered unclean - but that doesn't equal to hate. Muslims still keep and breed dogs for many purposes. For example the dog of "Ashab al-kaf" is an hounoured dog!

Quote
What other culture that had no contact with Islam also believed this?

I don't know.

Quote
And why was this message not sent to any other prophets?

Law wasn't same in for all Prophet's and societies - as times changed laws change. In older times - dogs weren't the pet that they are today. And there is no specific "hate" for dogs.

- - -

Quote
It is not that there are minor differences between the religious traditions of the various peoples of the world, it is that they are all totally different. No religious tradition that did not have contact with Islam resembles Islam at all in any way whatsoever.

Such as? Debatable. According to Islam - only about 313 different laws were sent.

- - -

Quote
So why an earth did Allah insist that Semites must be circumsized but other people shouldn't?

I don't actually know whether Allah ordered circumcision for others or not.

- - -

Quote
Name a culture that had no contact with Islam where idols were forbidden.

India - Messengers were sent - but were refused. According to Muslim Sufis.
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Reply #48 - October 19, 2012, 10:05 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 09:54 PM
................

This isn't about good or bad - it is about belief in God.

That is another fact from AminRiaz.. Indeed it is about belief in God.., BLIND UNQUESTIONABLE IRRATIONAL BELIEF IN god.. .,

Not only that, we have to believe in some silly books written 1000s of years back by some guys whose background in anything is 10 to 100 folds less than what an high school kid gets in the present days .. and..and they are WORD OF GOD..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

words of god..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #49 - October 19, 2012, 10:08 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 19, 2012, 09:54 PM
How is it a cop out? Simply stating something is cop out doesn't make it so. And I don't automatically get your reasoning - why it is a cop out. If you did see it that way.

I don't see how you got to the line "It's the polytheists fault God couldn't get his message out to everything." Why would it be polytheist fault?

"This sounds more like backward rationalizing why the world doesn't appear as one would expect under an all powerful God who created a species only to make them obey him. "

Humans were created to recognize and believe in one god. Accept and obey.

- - -

"It sounds more like an attempt to explain why other people who are just as good as any Muslim"

This isn't about good or bad - it is about belief in God.

because it places the preachers of polytheism on par with God with their ability to spread their message. It's telling and I think implicitly accepts the idea that Islam is just one of many religious and cultural currents which people accept with more or less faith than any other religion and/or culture which is not what you would expect if this really were some master plan from an omnipotent being who had the ability to craft the world in order to guide mankind. Islam makes universalist assumptions but the facts of the world point to it, like other faiths and cultures, as being co-equal in terms of merely being world views, and not being some master plan for humanity.

Which makes it odd that God would let free those who were good people who hadn't heard his message but would damn those who were good people, but weren't convinced of it's truthfulness, and I mean damn not in the sense of temporal torture like those who don't accept the tyrant Assad's claim to rule over Syria, but an eternal torture forever for those who's only crime it was, was to reject based off of imperfect knowledge the truth of Islam. IF God isn't any more powerful than the polytheists in getting his message out, who is he to torture people for not believing it?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Reply #50 - October 19, 2012, 10:14 PM

Quote
because it places the preachers of polytheism on par with God with their ability to spread their message.

How? It doesn't. God doesn't himself spread his message - Muslims don't claim that.

Quote
It's telling and I think implicitly accepts the idea that Islam is just one of many religious and cultural currents which people accept with more or less faith than any other religion and/or culture which is not what you would expect if this really were some master plan from an omnipotent being who had the ability to craft the world in order to guide mankind. Islam makes universalist assumptions but the facts of the world point to it, like other faiths and cultures as being co-equal in theobjective reality.

hmmm - meaning of this sentence is lost to me. I did not understand it. Re-phrase, please. Smaller sentences perhaps?
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Reply #51 - October 19, 2012, 10:21 PM

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How? It doesn't. God doesn't himself spread his message - Muslims don't claim that.

No God himself doesn't spread the message, but he is the ultimate author of it, in the same sense that eschatologically ultimately God will "win" and Islam will spread all over the world, even if God himself doesn't personally do it, he is the ultimate author of events, but he seems incapable of creating a world where all people everywhere would be able to hear and accept his message rationally and with full knowledge. It shows a lack of his ability, though it's not really a lack of God's ability because God doesn't exist and it was plain men who tried to invent a back story as to why all these other people who had never heard of Islam as a human cultural event wouldn't burn according to it's own theology.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Reply #52 - October 19, 2012, 10:31 PM

Quote
No God himself doesn't spread the message, but he is the ultimate author of it, in the same sense that eschatologically ultimately God will "win" and Islam will spread all over the world, even if God himself doesn't personally do it, he is the ultimate author of events, but he seems incapable of creating a world where all people everywhere would be able to hear and accept his message rationally and with full knowledge. It shows a lack of his ability, though it's not really a lack of God's ability because God doesn't exist and it was plain men who tried to invent a back story as to why all these other people who had never heard of Islam as a human cultural event wouldn't burn according to it's own theology.

"in the same sense that eschatologically ultimately God will "win" and Islam will spread all over the world"

I don't think Muslims believe this - more to the fact that Islam will end on Earth. Eventually no believers left.

- - -

" but he seems incapable of creating a world where all people everywhere would be able to hear and accept his message rationally and with full knowledge."

The purpose was to create a world where people can reject or accept belief. he purpose wasn't to make the world either perfect or easy. God is able to and has created other beings and worlds. Perfection wasn't the aim of humanity.

- - -

"It shows a lack of his ability, though it's not really a lack of God's ability because God doesn't exist and it was plain men who tried to invent a back story as to why all these other people who had never heard of Islam as a human cultural event wouldn't burn according to it's own theology."

Why suddenly switch to "God doesn't exist" - it doesn't make much sense here. Also - before Islam - the were other righteous religions. . . . those peopl will be judged according to that.
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Reply #53 - October 19, 2012, 10:36 PM

The arrogance of Islam is what is condemning Muslims to stasis as the world progresses.

If a Hindu told us that anyone in the world who has been informed of Lord Shiva doesn't accept him as their Lord and submit to him they will burn in hell for eternity they would be laughed out of town.

Because Muslims say this nonsense about Muhammad and Allah with such sincerity and ferocity and hatefulness people tend to try and be polite so as not to provoke the mad men in the room.

But what a sad and hopeless and worthless arrogance and useless supremacist thinking this is. All it does is mangle the minds of Muslims into sullen resentfulness and cognitive dissonance - wasting energy on a futile lie and supremacist stupidity.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #54 - October 19, 2012, 10:40 PM

Quote from: billy on October 19, 2012, 10:36 PM
The arrogance of Islam is what is condemning Muslims to stasis as the world progresses.

If a Hindu told us that anyone in the world who has been informed of Lord Shiva doesn't accept him as their Lord and submit to him they will burn in hell for eternity they would be laughed out of town.

Because Muslims say this nonsense about Muhammad and Allah with such sincerity and ferocity and hatefulness people tend to try and be polite so as not to provoke the mad men in the room.

But what a sad and hopeless and worthless arrogance and useless supremacist thinking this is. All it does is mangle the minds of Muslims into sullen resentfulness and cognitive dissonance - wasting energy on a futile lie and supremacist stupidity.

This is why you are Poster of the Month, billy. SPOT ON.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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Reply #55 - October 19, 2012, 10:42 PM

And for the Gina Gershon pics

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #56 - October 19, 2012, 10:44 PM

Quote from: billy on October 19, 2012, 10:36 PM
The arrogance of Islam is what is condemning Muslims to stasis as the world progresses.

If a Hindu told us that anyone in the world who has been informed of Lord Shiva doesn't accept him as their Lord and submit to him they will burn in hell for eternity they would be laughed out of town.

Because Muslims say this nonsense about Muhammad and Allah with such sincerity and ferocity and hatefulness people tend to try and be polite so as not to provoke the mad men in the room.

But what a sad and hopeless and worthless arrogance and useless supremacist thinking this is. All it does is mangle the minds of Muslims into sullen resentfulness and cognitive dissonance - wasting energy on a futile lie and supremacist stupidity.

You worded that and summed it up perfectly!

"In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

"The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
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Reply #57 - October 19, 2012, 10:47 PM

Quote from: billy on October 19, 2012, 10:42 PM
And for the Gina Gershon pics

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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Reply #58 - October 19, 2012, 10:49 PM

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The arrogance of Islam is what is condemning Muslims to stasis as the world progresses.

How? Anyone can make such statements . . . pretty meaningless to me.

Quote
If a Hindu told us that anyone in the world who has been informed of Lord Shiva doesn't accept him as their Lord and submit to him they will burn in hell for eternity they would be laughed out of town.

huh? What does Hinduism have to do with anything? Is that your faith? There are many things that non-Hindus find with Hinduism that are objectionable.

Quote
Because Muslims say this nonsense about Muhammad and Allah with such sincerity and ferocity and hatefulness people tend to try and be polite so as not to provoke the mad men in the room.

I cannot answer for others - but I am not "hateful" to anyone. But i do my best to be sincere. And I do not get your "try and be polite so as not to provoke the mad men in the room" - are you talking about World at large or this Forum. You are wrong on both counts.

Quote
But what a sad and hopeless and worthless arrogance and useless supremacist thinking this is. All it does is mangle the minds of Muslims into sullen resentfulness and cognitive dissonance - wasting energy on a futile lie and supremacist stupidity.

Isn't it rather arrogant of you then - according to your own logic - to imply that Muslims cannot think for themselves and accept Islam - and to imply that you are the sole purveyor of the "truth".

Such statements I find as somewhat meaningless. They are pretty common. Everyone who doesn't accept someone's point of view in a matter [religious, political and etc] come up with them. But they are hardly earth shattering and full of persuasive argument. All they do is state your position to an extent.
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Reply #59 - October 19, 2012, 10:57 PM

Quote
You worded that and summed it up perfectly! cool2

Sure - but you WOULD say that. It is rather obvious. . . . this happens at every forum of such kind. I don't think I was expecting anything different.

- - -

I remember when I first began to explore Atheism - naively I thought it would be very different to religious belief - and I was quite surprised at many similarities. Blogs, Forum, Social Media, Face to Face . . . . arguments were more or less of the same kind.
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