Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques

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Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
OP - October 27, 2012, 06:25 PM

Wikislam has presented an interesting case for the classic Muslim apologist excuse that you must know Arabic in order to criticise Islam or the Quran:
Quote
It is fundamentally impossible for anyone to learn a language that cannot be translated into the only one they do know, which means those who insist that one "must learn Arabic” in order to understand the Qur’an are committing a logical fallacy. Either the Arabic of the Qur'an is translatable (in which case there is no need to learn Arabic) or it is not (in which case it can never be learned by the non-native speaker).

Do the folks at Wikislam have a point?
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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #1 - October 27, 2012, 06:29 PM

Er, I don't see why it's impossible for someone to learn a language that can't be translated into the one they currently speak. Not that the 'u cant speak arabic doe' argument isn't bollocks.
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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #2 - October 27, 2012, 07:10 PM

Well the implication is that if it can't be translated there is simply no common ground between the two, which would make learning it rather difficult. I can see what they're getting at. It's like saying the mindset is so alien that it is impossible to get yourself into it. That's bullshit, because Arabic-speaking people (as first language or not) are happy to make and use translations into other languages whenever it suits them.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #3 - October 27, 2012, 07:13 PM

Yeah, rather difficult I get, but 'fundamentally impossible'? I find it easier to learn new words in other languages with pictures rather than translations anyway.
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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #4 - October 27, 2012, 07:19 PM

"Rather difficult" was taking the piss/understatement stuff. The thing is that you have to have some way of categorising the picture. If you're shown a picture of a car, you'll mentally categorise it as "car", and you'll categorise the other language's word associated with the picture as "oh yeah, that must be the ****** word for car" while you're learning. If you can't even recognise the picture as a car, you wont know what the word is supposed to be associated with. In practice, "untranslatable" would have to be something like that, which is what I meant by "no common ground".

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #5 - October 27, 2012, 07:29 PM

Well that's just a truism then.
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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #6 - October 27, 2012, 07:35 PM

So, do you think they have a point or not?

*They meaning WikiIslam.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #7 - October 27, 2012, 07:43 PM

There's probably a valid point in there somewhere, but it's not argued for very well.
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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #8 - October 27, 2012, 07:50 PM

Yeah that's my feeling as well. Too early on Sunday morning for me to get serious about it. Would require caffeine, as well as giving a shit.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #9 - October 29, 2012, 03:19 PM

Quote from: JayMac on October 27, 2012, 06:25 PM
Do the folks at Wikislam have a point?

No, because it isn't impossible to learn a language that cannot be translated into the only one they do know. It's not even particularly difficult. My limited, layperson exposure to eastern philosophy and teachings has often put me in unfamiliar language territory. However, there are concepts or idiosyncrasies I understand and know the respective spoken and written word for, but could not properly translate into English without losing something in translation. This is a shortcoming of the English language, not an inability to understand both languages. Learning a word in any language is just about repeating it enough times. It's not rocket surgery.

Moreover, while there may be a few problem words, you're unlikely to find a whole language that has no common ground with any other given language. If the bulk of any given language isn't about quickly and efficiently communicating simple ideas, experiences or observations about the shared universe, what could it possibly be useful for?

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #10 - October 29, 2012, 03:33 PM

They are wrong but kind of right. Languages are not directly translatable in a 1 to 1 ratio, there is some kind of loss because each language has is embedded in its own culture in time. I think it's a strike against the timelessness of the Quran because it's contingent on its time and culture and even if you can try and record all the connotations, emphasizes etc, you're still having to translate across the changes in the that time has caused. In that sense no book is 100% translatable across time and culture, the Quran isnt unique.

That isn't to say that books can't be adequately translated or that understood.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #11 - October 29, 2012, 04:41 PM

I've always ran into this. Just recently completely unrelated to Islam, I got into a conversation at work with a Jewish guy and a Chinese guy who will occasionally use a native word and then give their best English translation when I ask for the meaning.

In general, I asked them if there's anything in their language that they couldn't explain to me in English. Their first instinct was to say yes, but eventually we got down to the reality that any sentence in their language could be conveyed into English. Most often, words themselves cannot be mapped one to one, but they could explain the word concept in English quite well.

I certainly don't think one should simply read a direct Arabic translation in English and take the words for what they mean. I do think you always need to research the concept itself of many words. But I don't think there is anything that couldn't be given English context.

Just as a simple example, Riba in Arabic can be translated as Usary, but it is much more than simply charging interest. Is has more to do with the concept of earning gain without trade. You can delve into the Hadith for more context on it.

But no, I don't think there is anything in any language that we could not use English to convey the concept and meaning.
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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #12 - October 29, 2012, 07:42 PM

Babies learn a language without translating it into the only 'one they know'. It is possible to learn a second language as well as a native speaker.

There is a general problem of intepreting a piece of text. You can never be absolutely sure that you have the meaning that was intended. This is true even if it is your first language. It is not as if Arabic speaking Muslims all have the same interpretation of the quran. Language differences exaggerate this already existing problem.

I believe that English can express an infinite number of ideas. Therefore it would be possible to fully understand the quran in English, but not necessarily by translating it. It might need some extra clarification in places. The problem is that Muslims are reluctant to offer this, and I wouldn't even trust it if they did.

Lack of bias is more important than expertise in the language. That is an advantage I have over even the most qualified Muslim Arabic expert.
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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #13 - October 29, 2012, 08:06 PM

Quote from: Ishina on October 29, 2012, 03:19 PM
However, there are concepts or idiosyncrasies I understand and know the respective spoken and written word for, but could not properly translate into English without losing something in translation. This is a shortcoming of the English language, not an inability to understand both languages.

Are you sure it's not a limitation of the other language, or a limitation of your own ability?

Quote from: scamper_22 on October 29, 2012, 04:41 PM
I've always ran into this. Just recently completely unrelated to Islam, I got into a conversation at work with a Jewish guy and a Chinese guy who will occasionally use a native word and then give their best English translation when I ask for the meaning.

In general, I asked them if there's anything in their language that they couldn't explain to me in English. Their first instinct was to say yes, but eventually we got down to the reality that any sentence in their language could be conveyed into English. Most often, words themselves cannot be mapped one to one, but they could explain the word concept in English quite well.

I certainly don't think one should simply read a direct Arabic translation in English and take the words for what they mean. I do think you always need to research the concept itself of many words. But I don't think there is anything that couldn't be given English context.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Getting a truly accurate translation is likely to be quite a cumbersome process in some instances, but I can't see any reason why it should not be possible if the translator has a sufficiently good knowledge of both languages.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #14 - October 29, 2012, 08:23 PM

AFAIC all one has to do is point to the multiple translations of the Quran by Muslims and let them duke it out. If one trusted, traditional translation says "beat your wife" and another says "go to marriage counseling with your wife" without an objective agreement, either translation goes. Both translations would be correct. The problem with Islam is not that non-Muslims don't understand it, it is that Muslims don't understand it or can agree upon what it says. Focus on that and it doesn't matter what language you are trying to translate it in or out of - hand back to Muslim apologists the fact that any translation they go by is either incorrect, or if correct, they must prove it so, or accept that other translations are also correct.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #15 - October 29, 2012, 08:26 PM

Yeah but then they'll just say that their preferred tranlsation is correct, the ones they don't like are wrong, and they know teh Arabic and you don't so there.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #16 - October 29, 2012, 08:27 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 29, 2012, 08:26 PM
Yeah but then they'll just say that their preferred tranlsation is correct, the ones they don't like are wrong, and they know teh Arabic and you don't so there.

Then ask them to prove it. Bring up the other translations by people who also speak and understand Arabic.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #17 - October 29, 2012, 08:28 PM

I think we can already guess what the responses will be like.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #18 - October 29, 2012, 08:35 PM

Yep. Those kinds of responses are to be expected. My point is just to redirect the frustration back into the problematic translations of the Quran by other Muslims.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #19 - October 29, 2012, 08:38 PM

Surely this has been done already, decades ago, to little effect. Not that I don't agree that it's a good approach. I just don't expect much to come of it.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #20 - October 29, 2012, 08:41 PM

It's all been done before

The only difference is the scale and reach to which this can be done due to the Internet. As for what's to come out of it, it'll make some people question why those problematic texts are there, instead of being constantly vilifying non-muslim interpretations. Go after those who want to sugar coat Islam and you will get some people to realize that it is sugar coating that is applied and that the thing underneath that coat of sugar is quite rotten or at least, ambiguous enough that nutters can take it and run with it like they have in the case of taliban, wahabbis, etc.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #21 - October 29, 2012, 08:45 PM

Also, the vast majority of Muslims who say the "you must be fluent in ancient arabic to understand the quran" apologetics are themselves NOT fluent in ancient arabic. Challenge them on where THEY get their knowledge about what it says. They will say some imam or mullah or another, challenge them how they know those guys are fluent and who set them up to be the authorities in interpreting the texts. It's a longer process but you'd be ultimately helping those Muslims question the infallible allegiance they give to the mullahs who rule over the minds and lives of most Muslims.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #22 - October 29, 2012, 08:46 PM

Reminds me of one of Harrs' vids, in which he pointed out that religious extremism (as opposed to moderate religion or religion in general) is often said to be the problem but this isn't really true. He gave the example of Jainism, and said that the more extreme a Jain becomes, the less likely they are to be a problem for anyone around them. If the extreme adherents of a particular religion are a problem for other people around them, this says something about the religion itself.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #23 - October 29, 2012, 08:49 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 29, 2012, 08:06 PM
Are you sure it's not a limitation of the other language,

Sure. It works both ways. But when trying to translate an already existing word into English and finding no satisfactory equivalent, that's what I mean by a limitation of the English language. In reverse, a similar limitation might be found.

Quote from: osmanthus on October 29, 2012, 08:06 PM
or a limitation of your own ability?

Possibly. I certainly lack the ability to translate something like nirvana into English.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #24 - October 29, 2012, 08:51 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 29, 2012, 08:46 PM
Reminds me of one of Harrs' vids, in which he pointed out that religious extremism (as opposed to moderate religion or religion in general) is often said to be the problem but this isn't really true. He gave the example of Jainism, and said that the more extreme a Jain becomes, the less likely they are to be a problem for anyone around them. If the extreme adherents of a particular religion are a problem for other people around them, this says something about the religion itself.

Yeah exactly. Many Muslims will denounce "fundamentalist" Muslims or "extremist" Muslims... which only begs the question: why is Islam bad when practiced according to its fundamentals, and in the most purest and extreme way, but Islam is fine when practiced "in moderation"? In moderation with what? Non-Islamic things? If the fundamentals of Islam are bad, then it is the moderates who have the wrong version of Islam in their heads, not the ones who are practicing it in its purest form.

This tends to get under the veneer of moderate Muslims quite a lot. They have a sense of insecurity about Islam because it is actually nonsensical to pledge allegiance to something and then denounce those who have pledged an even greater allegiance to it, while believing that the thing itself is flawless.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #25 - October 29, 2012, 08:56 PM

Quote from: Ishina on October 29, 2012, 08:49 PM
Sure. It works both ways. But when trying to translate an already existing word into English and finding no satisfactory equivalent, that's what I mean by a limitation of the English language. In reverse, a similar limitation might be found.

Possibly. I certainly lack the ability to translate something like nirvana into English.

Yup. I know what you're getting at, but I don't think it's a barrier to translation as such. If you're looking for "a word" that is a satisfactory equivalent then you'll have to go with a sort of sound bite approximation a lot of the time. That's going to make translating poetry (for example) very difficult. You can't ramble on without buggering it, and you can't be accurate if you don't ramble on. It probably wont stand in the way of an accurate translation if accuracy is the prime concern. You'd have to talk a lot more to give the correct context, etc but it could still be done.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #26 - October 29, 2012, 09:42 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 29, 2012, 08:56 PM
You'd have to talk a lot more to give the correct context, etc but it could still be done.

Right. You couldn't have a casual conversation. You'd have to use a few words to say what can be said with only a single word in another language. And once a word had been defined or explained, you'd essentially be speaking two languages. You'd be dropping a foreign word into an English conversation, for simplicity.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #27 - October 29, 2012, 09:45 PM

Yes, it'd get messy for sure. I still think the original WikiIslam claim is making a valid point though. Something being truly untranslateable (in an absolute sense) is quite another thing to just being awkward to translate.

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Re: Wikislam on the 'You must know Arabic' apologetic techniques
Reply #28 - October 30, 2012, 12:14 AM

And if something is un translatable, it's a universal problem, as opposed to something unique to the Quran

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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