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Theme Changer

 Topic: Racism in Victoria's Secret?

 (Read 15024 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #60 - November 12, 2012, 10:55 PM

    Through the exposed, non-bowl air.


    And yeah, ideally there's no mess. But that's not how it works irl now, is it? Tongue

    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #61 - November 12, 2012, 11:07 PM

    @osmanthus

    The main point of that observation was that lived experiences of marginalized groups are completely different to the experiences of those people who choose to embellish cultural attire for a day. Dressing up for a day in another’s cultural dress does not result in any racial attacks or discrimination which is something those marginalized, underrepresented groups have to deal with throughout their lives.

    Yes, and Karlie Kloss' costume is not going to result in any of the stuff you're worried about. It wont cause anyone to be marginalised (apart from perhaps Kloss herself, in some circles).


    Quote
    The reason I picked up on that was because you described it as a ‘silly costume’ which involves the war bonnet. You’ve reduced a culturally significant item to a ‘costume’ and this is why this is seen as an issue.  When does the war bonnet stop being a ‘silly costume’ and when does it start being a symbol of bravery? When is native dress a ‘costume’? When a non-native wears it or when anyone wears it regardless of their heritage?

    No. VS did the reducing. I was simply commenting on what they presented. IMO, they've created a silly costume. It doesn't look impressive or classy. Like I said earlier, IMO it's a cheap and tacky rip-off of the original.

    And a costume is a costume anytime anyone wears it. Wiki:

    "The term costume can refer to wardrobe and dress in general, or to the distinctive style of dress of a particular people, class, or period..." etc, etc.


    Quote
    Does the latter situation negate the racism and offence felt by some Native Americans when their dress is worn by non-Natives as a costume? I doubt it.

    I know it will offend some people. People get offended all the time about all sorts of things.


    Quote
    These comparisons fail because we assume that cowboy dress, angel costumes and Native American clothing have equal weighting. Because, objecting to one dress does not mean we should object to them all. We need to be more aware of the histories to make sure that we do not offend someone with our ignorance – and we cannot ignore the past to justify something today because we may feel it’s ‘not a big deal’ or irrelevant because we don’t see how it’s offensive – or we’ve been privileged enough to not experience inequalities based on our cultural differences etc.

    Then you're opening yourself to questions about which ones you freak out about and where you draw the line. That's why I specifically mentioned the angels. The whole idea of angels is sacred to some people. Why don't you care about them too?


    Quote
    It’s racism based on ignorance. Just because something is racist does not mean it is intentional, and sometimes we can even be racist without knowing the prejudices we hold because they’ve been socialised into us. There are many things we have to unlearn because of the systems of institutionalised racism, sexism, classism etc we live within.

    It's not racism. FFS. Racism is believing that people of other groups are inherently inferior to you and your group. It is NOT wearing a costume because you think it looks cool. If anything, that would be a (possibly misguided) compliment.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #62 - November 12, 2012, 11:09 PM

    Through the exposed, non-bowl air.

    Why is in-bowl air inherently different? You're still breathing it, y'know. And don't get me started on the global water cycle.  grin12


    Quote
    And yeah, ideally there's no mess. But that's not how it works irl now, is it? Tongue

    Bloody should. I piss in the bowl. That's what it's for. Problem?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #63 - November 12, 2012, 11:18 PM

    Quote
    Bloody should. I piss in the bowl. That's what it's for. Problem?

    You've never had a case of the splashing dickhole?  You know, sometimes it just doesn't like to cooperate.  Maybe a couple of hours after sex (or masturbation)?  Or as a side-effect of medication:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCodaoMt8XE

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #64 - November 12, 2012, 11:22 PM

    Rarely, and tbh the messy times were usually the result of drunkenness. However it's always possible to clean up if you make a mess, y'know.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #65 - November 12, 2012, 11:25 PM

    This thread reminded me to look for the Native American music I used to listen to. So lovely.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #66 - November 12, 2012, 11:27 PM

    ZOMFG!!!!! VS causes racism! See?!?!?!

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #67 - November 13, 2012, 12:15 AM

    @osmanthus

    The main point of that observation was that lived experiences of marginalized groups are completely different to the experiences of those people who choose to embellish cultural attire for a day. Dressing up for a day in another’s cultural dress does not result in any racial attacks or discrimination which is something those marginalized, underrepresented groups have to deal with throughout their lives.

    Just because this is the way I interpret this situation does not mean everyone will. I understand that not everyone will agree with my points, or see things in the same way, and that is fine. It isn’t a numbers game – so it doesn’t make a difference if only one person interprets it this way, or one hundred.

    The reason I picked up on that was because you described it as a ‘silly costume’ which involves the war bonnet. You’ve reduced a culturally significant item to a ‘costume’ and this is why this is seen as an issue.  When does the war bonnet stop being a ‘silly costume’ and when does it start being a symbol of bravery? When is native dress a ‘costume’? When a non-native wears it or when anyone wears it regardless of their heritage? 

    Does the latter situation negate the racism and offence felt by some Native Americans when their dress is worn by non-Natives as a costume? I doubt it.

    Have cowboys experienced genocide? Have they been displaced from their home land? Do they experience racism and discrimination? Are they raped, murdered and abused by non-cowboys for being cowboys? Have cowboys been kept as slaves?

    These comparisons fail because we assume that cowboy dress, angel costumes and Native American clothing have equal weighting. Because, objecting to one dress does not mean we should object to them all. We need to be more aware of the histories to make sure that we do not offend someone with our ignorance – and we cannot ignore the past to justify something today because we may feel it’s ‘not a big deal’ or irrelevant because we don’t see how it’s offensive – or we’ve been privileged enough to not experience inequalities based on our cultural differences etc.
     

    It’s racism based on ignorance. Just because something is racist does not mean it is intentional, and sometimes we can even be racist without knowing the prejudices we hold because they’ve been socialised into us. There are many things we have to unlearn because of the systems of institutionalised racism, sexism, classism etc we live within.


    So me wearing an Indian Wedding dress at some point during my wedding (which I am thinking of doing and I am White European) is racist? I personally think it racist to think that people should or should not wear any type of clothing they choose.

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #68 - November 13, 2012, 10:07 AM

    So me wearing an Indian Wedding dress at some point during my wedding (which I am thinking of doing and I am White European) is racist? I personally think it racist to think that people should or should not wear any type of clothing they choose.


    India is too diverse for there to be one type of 'Indian wedding dress'. Often people speak of India and Indians as though they are a homogeneous group - this is not the case.

    You have every right to wear whatever clothing you want. But you do not have the right to control how other people react to you wearing clothing which is not part of your own culture.

    You can always read this to provoke thought: http://racism-education.tumblr.com/post/21388332730/cultural-appropriation

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #69 - November 13, 2012, 10:55 AM

    Quote
    You have every right to wear whatever clothing you want. But you do not have the right to control how other people react to you wearing clothing which is not part of your own culture.


    I'd say that anyone who gets upset because someone wears an Indian dress to their wedding needs to lighten up.

    Its a very fine line to walk between being sensitive to some people and policing borders in a way that resembles the most reactionary and bigoted right-wingers who despise any kind of inter-cultural miscegenation and borrowing. Something that, for example, you can observe in Islamic literalists as well as, say, white racists.

    I'm not saying you're doing that by the way, just a general observation.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #70 - November 13, 2012, 02:04 PM

    India is too diverse for there to be one type of 'Indian wedding dress'. Often people speak of India and Indians as though they are a homogeneous group - this is not the case.

    You have every right to wear whatever clothing you want. But you do not have the right to control how other people react to you wearing clothing which is not part of your own culture.

    You can always read this to provoke thought: http://racism-education.tumblr.com/post/21388332730/cultural-appropriation




    Should anyone be offended if a sub-continental person wears European fashion? I am sure they wouldn't be told you are sacrificing your culture (except maybe the girls). What's the difference? I feel like if anything people should feel flattered if people wear similar things to them, or be fascinated when they don't. I do not like double standards. People blow things out of proportion, no one wearing any sort of clothing from another culture is thinking, oh this will rile them up, they are thinking this would be fun and it looks cool. People are seeing an issue which does not exist.

    I am aware of many different wedding outfits in India btw but didn't think needed to define down to a region for this.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #71 - November 13, 2012, 02:09 PM

    Should anyone be offended if a sub-continental person wears European fashion?

    Europe is too diverse for there to be one type of 'European fashion'. Often people speak of Europe and Europeans as though they are a homogeneous group - this is not the case.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #72 - November 13, 2012, 02:14 PM

    Next question: what happens if an Amerindian wears a cowboy hat? Should rednecks get offended by the appropriation of part of their culture?


    Next question: what if an Indian from the Seminole tribe dresses up on Halloween as an Indian from the Apache tribe? Is that rascist?
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #73 - November 13, 2012, 03:41 PM

    Anyway, this is not only a sexism issue but also a race issue. Aren't most fashion designers and models white? Yet they're using others cultural identity as a marketing opportunity.

    Victoria's Secret is in the business of bedroom fantasy. Even if you managed to articulate an argument that this fashion show was sexist and racist (which you have not done, btw), who gives a shit? Who gives a shit if someone's fantasy is the most sexist, racist, fucked up depravity imaginable? GTFO.

    And isn't the rubbish they churn out just based on poor stereotypes and mockery.

    Ah yes, that well known stereotype of the 6ft blonde wearing Native American getup.

    The Native American feathered war bonnet is not just a prop than anyone can use, it has cultural significance and meaning. Unless we belong to that culture, we have no right to adopt their culturally significant items and make them our own.

    Sorry, but that's just bullshit.

    The phenomenon that cultural conservatives and social justice hipsters refer to when they say cultural appropriation is essential to self-expression and self-determination. Borrowing, appropriating, exchanging, innovation, inspiration, are part of an essential dimension of art. Humans adopting individual elements of a culture or drawing inspiration from ethnic aesthetics and ritual has been going on since time immemorial. It's the lifeblood of design, fiction, fashion, architecture. What about Pastiche? Comedy? Parody and satire? Martial Arts? Spirituality? Tattoos? Fusion cuisine? Film? Music? Where would music be if it was restricted by ethnic or regional boundaries? Somewhere really shit.

    Creativity cannot function within a set of rules and regulations. It dies. It must have freedom to breath. And nothing is sacred. Nothing is so important that it cannot be borrowed from. Period fashion certainly isn't. What the hell do rights have to do with it?

    There's a quote that's always stuck with me. Seems appropriate:

    "Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: "It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.""
    - Jim Jarmusch, Golden Rule of Film Making #5

    You'd have a fit if you saw my scrapbooks and sketchbooks from when I studied fashion. There's all kinds of shameless cultural appropriation going on in there.

    Moreover, the only possible way I can think of that this cultural acquisition is somehow a moral transgression is if those belonging to said culture forbid outsiders to practice or adopt it and if exclusion is a constitutive part of the culture. If that's the case: fuck the hypocrisy of racism accusations. And fuck the arbitrary and discriminatory tribal taboos that are being legitimised here.

    "If anyone tells you there is only one way, their way, get as far away from them as possible, both physically and philosophically."
    - Jim Jarmusch

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #74 - November 13, 2012, 03:47 PM

    It's also kinda ironic that you can buy these ever-so-sacred cultural trappings in any tribal gift shop.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #75 - November 13, 2012, 04:19 PM

    Europe is too diverse for there to be one type of 'European fashion'. Often people speak of Europe and Europeans as though they are a homogeneous group - this is not the case.


    Stop being dense, it's obvious what I meant (jeans and t-shirts etc).
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #76 - November 13, 2012, 04:41 PM

    ^ It was a pisstake out of cognisance's earlier response to you on India.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #77 - November 13, 2012, 05:11 PM

    Ah, you'd be wrong there, Cheetah.

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Fuck! This image will never leave my brain now. Ive been scarred for life! lol

    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #78 - November 13, 2012, 06:04 PM

    ^ It was a pisstake out of cognisance's earlier response to you on India.


    Ahh kay, apologies before writing that a couple of hrs earlier i switched the wrong switch on the fusebox to change a lightbulb, the bulb shattered and i got an electric shock, was still a little shaken up.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #79 - November 13, 2012, 06:05 PM

    Native Indians are cultured and modest people, if they feel abused or insulted by skinny slappers and their deluded perverted businessmen or agents who make money on exposing their nudity to satisfy the sexual lust and desires then so be it.

    I would not call it racism, but they should show a little respect, not every culture who is not Muslim wants to be plagued by Neo-Liberal ideals.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #80 - November 13, 2012, 07:58 PM

    ^ Your world seems to be populated by cardboard cutout cliches. Have you ever actually been out of your house?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #81 - November 13, 2012, 09:16 PM

    Native Indians are cultured and modest people, if they feel abused or insulted by skinny slappers and their deluded perverted businessmen or agents who make money on exposing their nudity to satisfy the sexual lust and desires then so be it.

    I would not call it racism, but they should show a little respect, not every culture who is not Muslim wants to be plagued by Neo-Liberal ideals.


    Took me a while to understand what you wrote there. Surely the issue there is viewers not thinking things through and saying 'where did this stuff come from in terms of it's production?', instead focusing on the visuals of 'Native American'. Why stop production because of a lack of thought in the populus? Nice calling people who pose in sexual garments 'slappers' too, really nice of you to do that.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #82 - November 13, 2012, 09:38 PM

    When does the war bonnet stop being a ‘silly costume’ and when does it start being a symbol of bravery?

    More to the point - when does it become a symbol of oppression?

    Btw what are your thoughts on the issue of species appropriation?
    Do you feel that its tackled with enough sensitivity? Is it given serious enough consideration in the current narrative of social rights?

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #83 - November 13, 2012, 10:18 PM

    You have every right to wear whatever clothing you want. But you do not have the right to control how other people react to you wearing clothing which is not part of your own culture.

    Nobody else here is trying to control how others react. I have already said that I know some Amerindians will be pissed about this. I have even taken the trouble to read their own words about this incident, so I quite understand why they are pissed. They are quite entitled to be pissed if they want to be. I have already said that I am not disputing that this particular costume is tacky or insensitive or several other things.

    However, that does NOT mean that VS or Kloss were being racist. To know that for sure, you would have to dissect their motivations. The mere appearance of the costume in question is not proof of racism. I am not into redefining words to mean anything you want them to mean, particularly when it involves making very harsh accusations against other people. Racism is a severe accusation. To make it stick, you need to have something pretty solid backing you up. You don't seem to have this.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #84 - November 13, 2012, 10:20 PM

    Next question: what if an Indian from the Seminole tribe dresses up on Halloween as an Indian from the Apache tribe? Is that rascist?

    It's also kinda ironic that you can buy these ever-so-sacred cultural trappings in any tribal gift shop.

    These points may be related. The headdress in question is not a cultural icon for all tribes. An Amerindian who has no tribal attachment to it may not be bothered about offering replicas for sale.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #85 - November 15, 2012, 11:36 PM

    Should anyone be offended if a sub-continental person wears European fashion? I am sure they wouldn't be told you are sacrificing your culture (except maybe the girls). What's the difference? I feel like if anything people should feel flattered if people wear similar things to them, or be fascinated when they don't. I do not like double standards. People blow things out of proportion, no one wearing any sort of clothing from another culture is thinking, oh this will rile them up, they are thinking this would be fun and it looks cool. People are seeing an issue which does not exist.

    I am aware of many different wedding outfits in India btw but didn't think needed to define down to a region for this.


    I don’t think it works in the same way considering white people do not have a history of cultural suppression.

    And as an Indian, I would most definitely not feel flattered if you wore a lengha or salwaar kameez. Even though I personally don’t care if you wear Indian clothing – I just feel that if you think someone not approving of you wearing clothing from a culture that is not yours is being an over-sensitive troll then maybe you shouldn’t be so dismissive of their reasons. It may be an issue for them – not for you, because you may not be able see or relate to it.

    It’s obvious that your intention isn’t to offend and I’m sure that you just like Indian clothing because ‘it’s so pretty’ and stuff. There are many ways to appreciate cultures without having to dress up as a knock-off or 'borrow' their culturally significant items for your own purposes, ridding the meanings attached to it and not acknowledging the people who it belongs to.

    I just think that our past shapes our present and it was not long ago that Indians were called uncivilised savages and had our cultural traditions scrutinized and ‘revised’ to fit more ‘civilised’/western standards.

    I’ll reply to the other points later (after deadlines have passed), if I remember.

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #86 - November 16, 2012, 12:16 AM

    I wasn't aware that India had only a single culture. Or that you was the authority on it.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #87 - November 16, 2012, 12:17 AM

    Cognisance is the authority on everyone else's culture. The name should make that clear.  Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #88 - November 16, 2012, 12:51 AM

    I wasn't aware that India had only a single culture. Or that you was the authority on it.


    I didn't really think I had to put a disclaimer on my posts stating that 'these views are mine, and mine only'.
    I was clearly reflecting on my own heritage and my opinions are not representative of all Indians blah blah.. etc.

    And seriously I don't think people have to be so insulting or mock me in their replies. Creating dialogue and exchanging ideas is how I learn, so it's really disheartening when people think it's ok to be rude and belittle differing opinions.

     

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #89 - November 16, 2012, 12:58 AM

    *plays the world's smallest violin*

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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