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Theme Changer

 Topic: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader

 (Read 29701 times)
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  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #120 - November 20, 2012, 03:09 AM

    Well, one particular country would be enough...
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #121 - November 20, 2012, 03:19 AM

    That would be a good starting point.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #122 - November 20, 2012, 05:11 AM

    This Land Is Mine

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #123 - November 20, 2012, 05:57 AM

    Pretty sad that an Israeli newspaper is willing to publish this.

    "We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

    There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing."

    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=292466

    Prince .. that is Op-ed..,  It is like news paper forum., any one can write in that.,  That is written by another  nut SHARON ...what do you expect from son of Arial Sharon?  Any ways .. The problem is not that guy but some in the govt of Israel speaking with same tone..  A senate member .. Knesset member can not speak like that..

    The other thing we must realize is,

    What is the point sending 1000s long range fire  crackers in to Israel??  
    The Hamas being an elected Govt  ruling Gaza  strip don't ' know where these missiles getting fired and who are firing those rockets?  
    Can't they control these guys?
    or is it the policy of Gaza govt going to all out war against Israel?  
    If it is all out war.. be prepared for consequences ., When Gaza residents elect Government.. they are supposed to control and look after these guys who are firing these missiles..
    These idiots who are firing rockets  must know Israelis will respond  and they have better technology to get the heroes of Islam .  Every one knows Israelis are looking for provocations to floor the cause of Palestine whenever they get a chance ..

    Ending the occupation, the blockade, the attempts to deny Palestine statehood and beginning to offer compensation for war crimes would be a good start. They'd probably also appreciate an end to the illegal settlement expansions in other parts of Palestine but I reckon they'd settle for not being caged animals in the mean time.

    You are not going to get that stuff by firing rockets and having people like these in the government..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW5ixG8pM1A

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWJFC98jPrQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez_gU0r1HeM

    Well If elected officials of Gaza government talk like that and his group send missiles across the border in to other country  and people of Gaza support such rulers .. then prepare properly for all out war..  don't fire silly fire crackers in ti the towns..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #124 - November 20, 2012, 06:12 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWzEnU8RP-8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyMY00Wurc8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOL5bXfzn_A

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #125 - November 20, 2012, 06:17 AM

    Y'know, it seems to have slipped some people's minds that from an Israeli perspective, moving out of Gaza was a trial "land for peace" thing. Really. It wasn't that long ago. The Israelis decided, after a lot of pressure, to turn over the whole Gaza Strip to Palestinian control. The result was that Gaza was immediately used as a base to launch attacks on Israel, and those attacks have continued ever since. This is despite Israel continuing to supply water and power to Gaza. Those hospitals in Gaza you see injured people being taken to? The power and water to run them is supplied by Israel.

    If anyone seriously thinks Israel should give up land for peace (and I agree that ultimately it is the only solution) then it has to be said that there has to be some genuine indication that giving up land will fucking result in peace. If it wont, there is no incentive for Israel to do it, and a very strong incentive for them not to do it.

    Also, I have to wonder why so many people get wound up about the Israelis blockading Gaza. Tell me, why don't those same people get equally wound up about Egypt blockading Gaza? Why is it only bad if Israel does it? Egypt shares a border with Gaza too. Egypt could allow all sorts of supplies into Gaza if it wanted to. In fact most of the people of Gaza are, or were, technically Egyptian citizens, not citizens of some hypothetical Palestinian state. These days, for some reason, Egypt has no responsibility for them, and everyone is fine with that, and the people are now Palestinians, and everything bad that happens to them is Israel's fault.

    Also, there are a lot of other human rights/dispossession problems in the world that don't get nearly as much attention, and don't result in nearly as much extreme polarisation of opinion. Why is this? Why is it always Israel and Palestine that make people see things in black and white?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #126 - November 20, 2012, 06:20 AM

    Also, I have to wonder why so many people get wound up about the Israelis blockading Gaza. Tell me, why don't those same people get equally wound up about Egypt blockading Gaza? Why is it only bad if Israel does it? Egypt shares a border with Gaza too. Egypt could allow all sorts of supplies into Gaza if it wanted to. In fact most of the people of Gaza are, or were, technically Egyptian citizens, not citizens of some hypothetical Palestinian state. These days, for some reason, Egypt has no responsibility for them, and everyone is fine with that, and the people are now Palestinians, and everything bad that happens to them is Israel's fault.


    Cause how else we gon' play muslim identity politics, bro? sheikh Muslimah

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #127 - November 20, 2012, 06:21 AM

    That's about it, innit? Afro

    ETA: Just did some checking up and Egypt never oficially annexed the Gaza Strip. They had it under military rule up until 1967, when of course the Israelis took it over as a result of the Six Day War.

    Ok, so anyway, Egypt was holding Gaza under military occupation up to that point. There must have been a lot of fighting there, right? Lots of ranting about oppression by invaders, right? Every Muslim and freedom-loving person up in arms about it, right? No? Gee.

    Oh, well maybe it was because Egypt was provding so much aid to Gaza. I mean Gaza wouldn't have been relying on the UN for aid, would it? Couldn't have been.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #128 - November 20, 2012, 06:51 AM

    ...............

    Also, I have to wonder why so many people get wound up about the Israelis blockading Gaza. Tell me, why don't those same people get equally wound up about Egypt blockading Gaza? Why is it only bad if Israel does it? Egypt shares a border with Gaza too. Egypt could allow all sorts of supplies into Gaza if it wanted to. In fact most of the people of Gaza are, or were, technically Egyptian citizens, not citizens of some hypothetical Palestinian state. .................
    ........................................

    no one talks about that .. as recent as august 2012 Cairo Tightens Egypt’s Blockade of Gaza After Sinai Terrorist Attack  .. that news
    Quote
    ....An angry Egypt has tightened its five-year land, sea and air blockade of Gaza following the spectacular weekend attack on an Egyptian border installation by Islamic terrorists traced to Gaza. Heavily armed terrorists killed 16 Egyptian police officers in a weekend raid, and then seized two Russian-built BRDM armored vehicles. The iconic Soviet-era BRDM is a combat reconnaissance and patrol vehicle with amphibious capabilities. The first commandeered BRDM raced toward the Israeli border but was destroyed on the Egyptian side. The second BRDM successfully crossed the border, traveling a few hundred yards, before it was destroyed by a combination of Israeli Air Force, tanks, and Special Forces. Israel withdrew from the mainly Palestinian territory of the former now-dissolved Ottoman colony.

    Egyptian officials investigating the attack charged that some of the attackers infiltrated from Gaza through established smuggling tunnels under the border. Scores of tunnels lie beneath the 9-mile long Gazan-Egyptian border through which the Palestinian Gazans primarily move contraband, weapons, and fighters as well as a host of commercial products. Closing the tunnels was enunciated as a high priority for Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, who heads up the Egyptian military. Under pressure from Morsi, Hamas announced it too would temporarily close the tunnels on the Gaza side...

     
    That news is just  4 months old..  Some of these IDIOTS LIVING IN GAZA would love to take such adventures and   go to allah or topple Egyptian.. Jordanian Governments  and then they dream attacking Israel from all directions again like that 60s war..  Why this government of Gaza strip not putting these guys where they belong?? and Allow such acts on Israelis or even Egyptians  or Jordanian Govts?

    Playing victim game and Taking one side or other side is easy..  More over we have to realize here that  Palestinians had best chance when Clinton was in power let me put these links here

    The Clinton Administration and Camp David--Anatomy of Failure

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q94j8UK2GY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcSYUItDdZc

    Quote
    Ehud Barak offered Arafat an eventual 91% of the West Bank, and all of the Gaza Strip, with Palestinian control over Eastern Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state; in addition, all refugees could apply for compensation of property from an international fund to which Israel would contribute along with other countries. However, Arafat rejected the offer flat out.

    The failure to come to an agreement was widely attributed to Yasser Arafat, as he walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer and because Arafat did little to quell the series of Palestinian riots that began shortly after the summit (the second intifada, also known as al-Aqsa Intifada).

    Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace."

    In "My Life" written by president Clinton, he wrote that Arafat once complimented Clinton by telling him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded;

    "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one."


    Who blew that??   Well world moved on... As a kid I too . I used to support Palestine.. but you can not  play Islamic victim game neither you can use Islam in 21st century. Since the internet came in to the world, it is  easy to see the facts .. we can not keep our heads in sand all the time.. I understand the problem of Palestinian people .. but Islamic mind sets are not going to solve that problem.  And if they are the  leaders with such Quran/ Allah/Islam mindset  it will be worse. Take Islam out of their minds .. at least get proper  leaders who don't talk JIHAD..JIAHD nonsense   with-in Palestine and in other countries like Iran.,  then we can talk  and take  Palestine side. Ideally there should not be any borders.. We know there are already 25% of Muslims living in Israel... And many are peaceful folks who just want their kids   educated and look for better future.,   but if Gazans and Louts in  west bank looking allah  heaven and after life, then  rest of the world is in helpless situation to talk to Israelis

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #129 - November 20, 2012, 07:00 AM

    Yes, that episode in 2000 was a debacle. Barak's (Israel's) offer was a damned good one. The Palestinians should have jumped at it.

    ETA: Ultimately, it all came down to religion. The rest of the details could have been sorted out, but weren't because of religion.

    Jerusalem and the Temple Mount
    Quote
    A particularly virulent territorial dispute revolved around the final status of Jerusalem. Leaders were ill prepared for the central role the Jerusalem issue in general and the Temple Mount dispute in particular would play in the negotiations.[10] Barak instructed his delegates to treat the dispute as "the central issue that will decide the destiny of the negotiations" whereas Arafat admonished his delegation to "not budge on this one thing: the Haram (the Temple Mount) is more precious to me than everything else."

    The Palestinians demanded complete sovereignty over East Jerusalem and its holy sites, in particular, the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, which are located on the Temple Mount, a site holy in both Islam and Judaism, and the dismantling of all Israeli neighborhoods built over the Green Line. The Palestinian position, according to Mahmoud Abbas, at that time Arafat's chief negotiator: "All of East Jerusalem should be returned to Palestinian sovereignty. The Jewish Quarter and Western Wall should be placed under Israeli authority, not Israeli sovereignty. An open city and cooperation on municipal services."

    Note the Palestinian position that "the Haram (the Temple Mount) is more precious to me than everything else." More precious than an end to conflict. More precious than land for Palestinian people.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #130 - November 20, 2012, 07:25 AM

    Yes, that episode in 2000 was a debacle. Barak's (Israel's) offer was a damned good one. The Palestinians should have jumped at it.

    ETA: Ultimately, it all came down to religion. The rest of the details could have been sorted out, but weren't because of religion.

    Jerusalem and the Temple MountNote the Palestinian position that "the Haram (the Temple Mount) is more precious to me than everything else." More precious than an end to conflict. More precious than land for Palestinian people.

    Let me put some GOVT links on that from both sides..

    Clinton and PLO Historic peace pact]http://www.historycentral.com/documents/Clinton/ClintonSigningPLOpeace.html]Clinton and PLO Historic peace pact
    Rabin and Arafat Seal Their Accord as Clinton Applauds 'Brave Gamble'
    timeline-middle-east-peace-talks

    Oslo Accord: What Happened And Why It Failed
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9IPvqhWiSs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcdhMjXSrOc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYfxXFbzic

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #131 - November 20, 2012, 07:38 AM

    And Let us watch Yasser Arafat ...

    Yasser Arafat Speech   at the UN (United Nations)in 1974
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQrbPhrPJ7I&feature=fvwrel

    Yasser Arafat  Jihad....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yIlszDfp94

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULYxa0X64Ow

    Yasser Arafat and the declaration of a Palestinian state
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhlvwMx1mb0

    Paul McGrath Interviews Yasser Arafat, 1991 .. That is about first Gulf war of USA with senior Bush
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0tbZ3iYgCs

     60 Minutes Interview with Yasser Arafat February 10, 2002

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH-xkTIUtPY

    Well History comes back and hits you hard.... Now in 21st century. Knowing well all religions are nonsense and ISLAM IS BULLS HIT . . we can not go on repeating the same mistakes in this century., We need different direction.  People moved out of Caves   swords and guns and even 10000 pound bombs..... we just need a 25 pound weight and a donkey carrier  and a dedicated mindless fellow with death wish  to obliterates a city of 5 to 10 million people.............

    All those tubes are for My good fried Zero.. Nero  "0oo0" /url] who said in this thread
    Quote
    When was the PA/Fatah/PLO ever Islamist  Huh?

    ..LOL @ the PA being Islamist comment, some people think they're on faux news. *tuts*

    W'Salam.  ....

     
    Question:  So When was the PA/Fatah/PLO ever Islamist  Huh??
    Ans: well I guess That was before our Zero  "0oo0"'s birth

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #132 - November 20, 2012, 02:51 PM

    I agree that religion is what has made this conflict so prominent and so polarising. Your average Muslim is grossly uninformed about the Israeli-Palestinian drama but is nonetheless staunchly pro-Palestinian and fervently anti-Israel. The "filthy Jews" my sister loves to say, and she knows practically nothing about the conflict or it's history; she does know however that the Jews "invaded" and are the big bad. I'm assuming it's similar on the Israeli/Jewish side.  

    Oz:
    "Hamas cannot stand the fact that Jews are in charge of the Temple Mount/al Aqsa."

    The entire ummah can't; they completely ignore the fact that the Temple Mount is uber-holy to the Jews (who were around before Mo was a speck in his daddy's eye). The last time this Gaza/Israel shit blew up and there were protests and flag burnings from Malaysia to Somalia, I said something to the effect of "it's not our fight. We're not Arab/Palestinian. It's not like they give a shit about us" and my mum was shocked and replied that the Jews CANNOT occupy Al-Aqsa. Even when I was Muslim I thought this was arrogant; I mean why hog all the "holy" cities? We already have Makkah and Medina and have the nerve to ban the kuffar from both of those places so why must we have a monopoly over Jerusalem too? Especially when the older desert superstitions also have claims to them.  
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #133 - November 20, 2012, 03:34 PM

    Today's news and comments on that irrelevant irrational war ...

    Israel’s new Gaza honeymoon with Obama (and why it may not last very long)....Chemi Shalev  in Israel's News paper

    Gaza Without End_....ROGER COHEN in .nytimes.com

    Israel must be tried for ‘war crimes’ over Gaza.._ from gulfnews.com .. A Canadain writer

    Eyewitness in Gaza: an Egyptian Risks Death Beside the Palestinians  from thedailybeast.com  . Effect of this war on Egypt..

    Gaza’s resilience will defeat Israel from gulfnews.com.. An Islamic intellectual living in Canada and Dubai..

    The Israel-Gaza Conflict: A Guide to the Major Players..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #134 - November 20, 2012, 05:30 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #135 - November 20, 2012, 06:41 PM

    My asshole opinions and questions, maybe my information is incorrect Cheesy

    Well my take on whose who land is whose. Israel is already established and it isn't going anywhere. It's unfair and horrible BUT For Palestinians to realistically reclaim they would have to burn down and destroy the entire population with a mass genocide. Flatten out the entire country and start over. I would support Palestine getting their land back, but honestly I don't see how they are going to do it without lots of blood and displacing families already there. They would essentially have to become what they hate, justified or not0

     I don't understand the whole 'FREE GAZA" slogans, since Israel gave up Gaza to Hamas already.  However because Hamas started firing rockets at them they started the blockade, from what I hear from Israelis they let humantarian aid in, as long as it goes their channels and security, as well as set up hospitals along the borders for Palestinians, most of which are empty because Hamas discourages its people from accepting any kind of aid through bitterness. According to Israelis as a state they have spent billions of its own dollars to help keep Gaza running, through clean water and electricity.  I find this amazing because Israel has no obligations to Gaza and when I ask people who are Pro-Palestine about it, they completely ignore it or wave it off like Spinoza did ^_~. So I haven't found a source which has discredit it. I find this shocking because I though Israel just 100% blocked off Gaza and just ignores it and its people, and does nothing but rain rockets which Hamas preaches. But the more I research the more I realize that some Gazans have benefited from Israel, sometimes saving their lives. The blockade is talked about a lot, and it's horrible. But from what I understand things still move into Gazas, just under Israelis tight control. Which is different from what I'm told that nothing gets into Gaza and they are 100% starved of anything.


    http://www.inquisitr.com/405424/israeli-hospitals-continue-to-treat-patients-from-gaza-during-fighting/

    Quote
    The devotion of Israel’s doctors to treating any patient has not always been paid back in kind. Take the case of Wafa Samir al-Biss, the Palestinian woman treated for severe burns in an Israeli hospital. The 21 year old woman was caught at one of the checkpoints that anti-Israeli peace activists claim are only to enforce racial apartheid against the Palestinians. She was carrying 22 pounds of explosives sewn into a belt inside her underwear.

    al-Biss was planning to tale advantage of a scheduled follow-up visit to the hospital that treated her to enact her own sick vengeance on the Jewish people.

        “My dream was to be a martyr. I believe in death. Today I wanted to blow myself up in a hospital, maybe even in the one in which I was treated. But since lots of Arabs come to be treated there, I decided I would go to another, maybe the Tel Hashomer, near Tel Aviv. I wanted to kill 20, 50 Jews …”

    Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/405424/israeli-hospitals-continue-to-treat-patients-from-gaza-during-fighting/#sJfwkt0BPw73Xv4e.99



    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/world/middleeast/10patients.html?_r=0

    That ones an older one. But still my point.

    Also I read up one of the 'illegal settlements' has a mixture Jews, Muslims (apparently some from Africa) and Christians living in them as they develop them into 1st world societies. So it's not like all of these illegal settlements are 100% Jewish Zionist.  It sounds like I'm pro-Israel, maybe I am but I like to consider myself pro- co-existence. I see Israeli making more attempts to make a functioning multi-cultural secular society, which is more important for families, than politics or religious rhetoric. People are leaving Syria, and other Middle Eastern countries in scores while the West continues to grow including Israel. It shouldn't have to be that way.  I think is going to hurt the Middle East in the long run as their smartest minds leave. Stunting their development to compete with the 'big bad West' on a global scale.

    I think that if Palestine wants to re-claim, they need to develop their areas and put their citizens safety first. Then have people want to move in there, not want to move out. Chanting hateful slogans, and calling for the freedom of Gaza doesn't amount to anything at the end of the day. Israel is still going to be there. Hamas shoot rockets, that don't do hardly any damage they want to. And Israel blocks most of the rockets, a complete waste of money on Hamas part.

    NOW, I know some people say that Israel gets all this money from America that's why they are so powerful, I don't support that personally as an American. However, I see Gaza gets support from Egypt, and Iran and I think Saudi Arabia. Where is all that money going to? Both sides gets money and support from their allies, what the hell is Hamas doing with the funding they are getting?

    Keep in mind I'm aware Israel does some real scumbag things, and civilians get caught up in it. And I don't believe the the life of a Hamas jihad leader warrants the risk of a child's life. Which Israel tens to just shrug off every time Palestinians get hurt. It's disgusting, but what the Palestinians and their supporters are doing are counter-productive. They may be right in what they believe, but their solution is harming themselves more than Israel the one they wish to exact vengeance on. At the end of the day, a rocket comes towards Israel, all the citizens are able to get alerted and seek safety no one gets hurt, while in Palestine a rocket comes and there are no sirens or shelters and the people are sitting ducks. Palestine needs to protect itself, not keep wishing Israel would disappear and wait for the missiles to fly.

    As for this conflict I hope Egypt and Morsi, even though he is often called the big bad Islamist Muslim Brotherhood in the media here in the US. I really hope he can help the Palestinians recover from the attacks by Israel, and help with the diplomacy. At the end of the day no one wants war, but everyone wants revenge/justice. Pick and choose you can't have both.

    The end. Smiley

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #136 - November 20, 2012, 07:49 PM

    Stop talking sense. It's not trendy. Tongue

    I totally agree about the "Free Gaza" thing. Gaza is already free. Israel is not occupying Gaza. Israel is not administering Gaza. The situation is different in the West Bank, but in terms of the southern areas that affect Gaza, Israel has already withdrawn to its pre-'67 borders, which are supposedly the Holy Grail of activists these days.

    Gaza is outside of Israel's borders. As far as I am aware, no country is obligated to supply goods and services to any independent territory outside its borders. By supplying essential services to Gaza, despite it being chockers full of Israel's enemies, Israel is actually going above and beyond its obligations.

    The blockade? A country has the right to police its own borders as it sees fit. As Sakura just pointed out, there are sound reasons for policing that border. Sure, not every resident of Gaza is a jihadi, but they don't all need to be to justify checkpoints. If the border was totally open, it's pretty clear that at least one bomb would have gone off in a hospital.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #137 - November 20, 2012, 08:43 PM

    It is about time I educated myself on the whole Israeli-Palestine thing. I understand the basics of what's happened, but I need to learn more about how exactly the Israelis went about stealing Palestinian lands. Who can recommend some good books on the subject that are not too biased for either side? Or maybe one book that is moderately pro-Palestinian and another book that is moderately pro-Israel?

    To be honest it really isn't a topic that interests me much, seeing as I am not religious so I don't really care that much about who controls the so-called "Holy Land". I usually try to stay clear of such partizan discussions. But I do think it would be good to have a better understanding of the background of it seeing as it is claimed by so many to be the root of many of the problems in the region.
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #138 - November 20, 2012, 09:27 PM

    ............ moderately pro-Palestinian ..................

    Why just Moderate .. read everything Tonyt..

    Palestine And the Palestinians: A Social and Political History

    The Palestinian-Arab Minority in Israel, 1948-2000: A Political Study

    The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: A Documentary Record

    A People Without a Country: Voices from Palestine

    Palestinian Identity:

    Voices from the Camps: A People's History of Palestinian Refugees ...

    Palestine Inside Out: An Everyday Occupation -

    most of these books you can scan through ..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #139 - November 20, 2012, 09:44 PM

    PDF files.. Published papers..

    The Origin of Palestinians and Their Genetic Relatedness With Other Mediterranean Populations

    Myths and Facts Palestinians

    A Short History of the Colonization of Palestine

    Apartheid against the Palestinian people

    The Suffering of the Palestinian Child under the Israeli Occupation

    Stateless Palestinians - Forced Migration Review

    Palestinian-Israeli Conflict]

    [url=http://www.standwithus.com/pdfs/flyers/plo_charter.pdf]THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL CHARTER


    Statehood stalled_ Next step for Palestinian people

    Hamas - and the Goals from US of A

    Hamas Charter

    CHARTER OF THE ISLAMIC RESISTANCE MOVEMENT (HAMAS) OF PALESTINE

    All those are downloadable PDF files..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #140 - November 20, 2012, 09:54 PM


    I don't understand the whole 'FREE GAZA" slogans, since Israel gave up Gaza to Hamas already.  However because Hamas started firing rockets at them they started the blockade, from what I hear from Israelis they let humantarian aid in,

    They have also regularly denied aid.
    Quote
    as long as it goes their channels and security, as well as set up hospitals along the borders for Palestinians, most of which are empty because Hamas discourages its people from accepting any kind of aid through bitterness. According to Israelis as a state they have spent billions of its own dollars to help keep Gaza running, through clean water and electricity.  I find this amazing because Israel has no obligations to Gaza

    Yes they do by virtue of the fact they are an occupying force.

    Quote
    and when I ask people who are Pro-Palestine about it, they completely ignore it or wave it off like Spinoza did ^_~.

    Do you know anything about the appropriation of water in the middle east?

    Quote
    So I haven't found a source which has discredit it. I find this shocking because I though Israel just 100% blocked off Gaza and just ignores it and its people, and does nothing but rain rockets which Hamas preaches. But the more I research the more I realize that some Gazans have benefited from Israel, sometimes saving their lives.

    That totally makes up for everything.

    Quote
    The blockade is talked about a lot, and it's horrible. But from what I understand things still move into Gazas, just under Israelis tight control. Which is different from what I'm told that nothing gets into Gaza and they are 100% starved of anything.

    So things are a sliver better than you were dumb enough to believe, this is worthy of note how?


    Quote


    Get this in your fuckin' head. Negligible aid does not in the slightest excuse mass oppression and your thinly veiled attempts to do so are pretty disturbing.

    Quote
    Also I read up one of the 'illegal settlements' has a mixture Jews, Muslims (apparently some from Africa) and Christians living in them as they develop them into 1st world societies. So it's not like all of these illegal settlements are 100% Jewish Zionist. 

    YEAH! ANOTHER SCORE FOR TEAM INTERNATIONAL CRIMINALS! Keep looking hard enough and you'll have enough to call for the death of a whole country of people. Wait, you've already done on that on this forum.

    Stop talking sense. It's not trendy. Tongue

    I totally agree about the "Free Gaza" thing. Gaza is already free. Israel is not occupying Gaza.

    Excellent, the UN security council and International Court of Justice will be thrilled to hear it. Want me to get them on the phone so you can put them right?
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #141 - November 20, 2012, 10:16 PM

    Explain how Israel is occupying Gaza then. Go on.

    I have no problem with statements that Israel is occupying the West bank (they obviously are) but they have totally withdrawn from Gaza, back to their pre-67 borders, and Gaza is self-governing. That doesn't equal occupation in my books.

    ETA: By the way you'll have to argue this point with the Hamas government of the Gaza Strip. According to them, Gaza is not occupied.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #142 - November 20, 2012, 10:23 PM

    No I'm not interested in indulging your game of Socrates when international governing bodies and the biggest human rights organisations have made clear they consider Israel an occupying force in Gaza and a quick google search would reveal their reasoning.
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #143 - November 20, 2012, 10:41 PM

    Yes I know, they consider it an occupation because Israel controls some of Gaza's border. Thing is, those borders are also Israel's borders. so you have to explain why a country controlling its own borders must thereby be occupying some other territory. That sounds like bullshit to me. I'll also note that there are dissenting opinions about this. It's not unanimous among all legal experts.

    A naval blockade does not in itself constitute occupation either. It's usually an act of war, but it's not occupation.

    Oh and by the way, the Hamas rocket attacks on Israel are considered to be war crimes by some legal experts too. Just a little FYI, before you get too high and mighty about all this.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #144 - November 20, 2012, 10:54 PM

    They also control Gaza's airspace, coastline, territorial waters, elements of it's tax revenue and population registry.

    I don't remember denying that Hamas are war criminals.
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #145 - November 20, 2012, 11:00 PM

    Zahhar: Gaza more secure than West Bank
    Quote
    BETHLEHEM (Ma’an) – Seven years after Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip, several things have changed both at the political and the economic level, Hamas official Mahmoud Zahhar said Friday.

    Speaking to Ma’an, Zahhar asserted that “Gaza is free of occupation, and contiguity with the outside world is easier as visitors from all over the world visited the coastal enclave.”

    Since the Foreign Minister for the Hamas government apparently doesn't consider Gaza to be under occupation, why should I?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #146 - November 20, 2012, 11:02 PM

    Don't?
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #147 - November 20, 2012, 11:03 PM

    Ok, I won't. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #148 - November 20, 2012, 11:13 PM

    k, I should be studying. I'm going back to ignoring this thread. Ceasefire looks imminent. dance
  • Re: Palestinian-Israeli conflict escalates following the death of Hamas leader
     Reply #149 - November 20, 2012, 11:14 PM

    They also control Gaza's airspace, coastline, territorial waters, elements of it's tax revenue and population registry.

    I've already pointed out that a blockade =/= occupation. They're different things.

    It's a dodgey area for legality. Blockades are legal as acts of war, but of course that means you have to have a declaration of war. That usually involves two recognised states, which isn't the case with Gaza (it not being a recognised state in its own right). However, Hamas are on record umpteen times as saying they consider themselves at war with Israel, and Hamas is the government of Gaza.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade
    Quote
    Since 1945, the UN Security Council determines the legal status of blockades and by article 42 of the UN Charter, the Council can also apply blockades.[5]

    According to the not ratified document San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994,[6] a blockade is a legal method of warfare at sea but is governed by rules. The manual describes what can never be contraband. The blockading nation is free to select anything else as contraband in a list, which it must publish.

    The blockading nation typically establish a blockaded area of water, but any ship can be inspected as soon as it is established that it is attempting to break the blockade. This inspection can occur inside the blockaded area or in international waters, but never inside the territorial waters of a neutral nation. A neutral ship must obey a request to stop for inspection from the blockading nation. If the situation so demands, the blockading nation can request that the ship divert to a known place or harbour for inspection. If the ship does not stop, then the ship is subject to capture. If people aboard the ship resist capture, they can be lawfully attacked.


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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