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 Topic: Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?

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  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #30 - December 20, 2012, 01:17 PM
    Alex makes a very good point, and this has got me thinking.
    There are rituals which mark the act of exiting Islam, but these tend to lack real power, since all-too-often they’re carried out in secret (eating pig-meat, for example), are done anonymously (in the form of anonymous online confessions), or are symbolically ambiguous (removing certain kinds of clothing that may suggest apostasy but not necessarily establish it).
    This makes it difficult to move beyond the ex-status because you constantly have to prove it, since that status is not publicly confirmed – that is, it isn’t officialized in a public ceremony. There are of course important reasons for this – one of which is that leaving Islam is a taboo.
    What also makes it difficult to move beyond the ex-status is that there aren’t any rituals for such a transition. I recently read an article on ex-offenders and a big part of the difficulty they face in returning to the community as law-abiding citizens is that they’re still seen as offenders. There aren’t any adequate public rituals which serve to cancel their offender-status, and so they’re still seen (by others and themselves) in that light. You could make a similar point about ex-Muslims. I guess resigning from a forum like this is one such ‘moving on’ ritual, but again, it’s usually done under the cover of anonymity.
    I think one of the biggest political challenges for ex-Muslims is creating these kinds of rituals – rituals which publicly mark passages out of Islam (and, subsequently, out of the ex-Muslim status) and which ascribe to these passages positive meanings of hope and possibility.
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #31 - December 20, 2012, 09:29 PM
    It's easier to see Islam the way Muslims do, it is a citizenship. Islam is the nation and Muslims are its citizen. It has its own unique culture, tradition/customs just like any other countries. Plus its own language that you are expected to learn. It also has its own brand of ideologies and a clear concept of what it deems as patriotic or not. It even has its own armed forces to enforce its laws. Like other nations it is extremely territorial and desires expansion. You're also required to swear an allegiance when you become a citizen. Hence when you speak against Islam then you speak against the nation and its people. You leave Islam for whatever reason, good or bad, you'll be seen as someone who betrayed his/her own country and countrymen/women; you're a shameful dirty, filthy traitor. Because you possess valuable sensitive information of the country's secrets, you've become a threat to national security thus worthy to be silenced/hanged/shot/beheaded.

    So it's like that military pilot who defected from North Korea. He's against North Korean ideologies, and no longer a North Korean citizen but given the choice between McDonald's irradiated burger and Korean bulgogi with kimchi for dinner, he'll choose the latter most definitely. So would I actually, Korean bulgogi is awesome!
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #32 - December 20, 2012, 11:00 PM
    Quote from: Simon on December 16, 2012, 03:30 PM
    The discourse certainly won’t change if everyone refuses to recognize the possibility that it can change.

     

    The only major way we can get people to start talking honestly about apostasy in Islam is by us ex muslims coming out of the closet and stating their views in a blog or somewhere for everyone to read.

    Plus the more ex muslims in this generation will just encourage the next generation of ex muslims to come out of the closet.  I am convinced the population of closeted ex muslims is in the millions.

    We just need to start the ripple effect. Kinda like the ending of this movie scene.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8UL_9R_W-Y
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #33 - December 21, 2012, 02:31 PM
    Many thanks for all your replies. Many useful. I think somewhere in there I got the answer I was looking for, and probably left me with some more.

    You have described a commonality that inevitably leads to identification as ex-Muslim. Yes of course I see how that works in terms of ex-Muslims to gather together in one place to share. My query was regarding this self-identification as an individual living and functioning in society. These labels help us understand each other better on forums such as this. In real life however, an ex-Atheist telling you that they now choose to believe in religion will not affect the price of bread in the shops. You don't have to go far on the internet to find a forum for ex-Atheists who have become Muslim. Yes they will have much in common and it will be a good place to meet, share, bond etc. If one of those people was wearing a sign that said ex-Atheist, I would ask them the same question. Why make your primary label an 'ex' label? That person is Muslim now, they are likely to choose the primary label of 'Muslim' (I don't assume all ex-Muslims become atheist, so this was just one reverse example). I am not saying their past experience as an atheist is negligible and not worth anything. Without a doubt their past is what moulded them as a person, even if they decided on another path in the end. Such a person would consider themself 'free' of atheism, in the same way as an ex-Muslim considers themselves 'free' of the religion of Islam.
    I see that people on this thread want to make a stand and be a symbol of something. A role model of sorts. But my idea of a role model/ symbol is not one who tells you to leave something for nothing. Rebellling for the sake of rebelling, I don't see the point. There's gotta be some light on the other side. I just wonder why you do not label yourselves using what you consider that light to be. If you feel Islam is a darkness you have left behind you, why carry that around on your back? For those who feel that leaving Islam is an achievement in itself, and there's no need for anything beyond that, then I guess I will never get the answer to my question from them.
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #34 - December 21, 2012, 02:33 PM
    Quote
    Rebellling for the sake of rebelling, I don't see the point.


    And that is why you don't see the point. Because you condescendingly view ex-Muslims as errant uppity children rebelling for the sake of it.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #35 - December 21, 2012, 02:38 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 21, 2012, 02:31 PM
    ,,,then I guess I will never get the answer to my question from them.

    no.. no .,   please stay around mr, KShah_KE.. you will get the answer. it is just time constrains and  I don't like people ganging up on a nice guy like you..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #36 - December 21, 2012, 02:49 PM
    Quote
    I guess I will never get the answer to my question from them.

    This is true because no matter what our answers are it will never be satisfactory because you are coming with the idea that Islam is correct, I definitely am not going try and figure out what answere you want, so I will leave you what my mother told me:
    لكم دينكم ولي دين
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #37 - December 21, 2012, 03:03 PM
    That is your second dig at me. No you are wrong. I do not see it as a childish act. I am asking those adults on here with their respectable reasons to share them with me so I may be enlightened.
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #38 - December 21, 2012, 03:06 PM
    لكم دينكم ولي دين

    I agree.

    Please, I am not asking for an answer that fits within Islam. That wouldn't come from a non-Muslim now would it? I am asking as a human who has my chosen path. You have yours. We should be able to understand each other if we discuss it.
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #39 - December 21, 2012, 03:08 PM
    my opinions on the term

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=17621.0
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #40 - December 21, 2012, 03:25 PM
    Quote
    A question that comes up with some regularity is: “Why do you identify yourselves as Ex-Muslims?”


    ^ Your question
    My answer:
    The reason I feel we identify ourselves as ex-muslims is because that is the only label that binds us as a group, we are not all atheists, we are not all agnostic, some of us are pantheist, deists, humanists, secularists etc
    Being former muslims is the only thing that unites us as a group, we have varying political and social views. We have become an online community of former muslims namely ex-muslims and we are proud to wear that badge.
    For many of us, this ex-muslim identity we have comforts us as we know that we are not alone and that no matter where on earth you are located (that is if you are not blocked by you ISP) you have the feeling of togetherness. Most of us still have Muslim family and we respect them for their views, however lots of us are still closeted ex-muslims for fear of rejection or worse by our muslim family and community.

    Your question as to why we identify as ex-muslims is because no other label will fit as we have different opinions in many spheres and being from a muslim background either by birth or conversion is where we form our bond.

    That is just my opinion and answer to your question, hope it is understandable.

    Hope you have a pleasant day further
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #41 - December 21, 2012, 03:29 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 21, 2012, 03:03 PM
    That is your second dig at me. No you are wrong. I do not see it as a childish act. I am asking those adults on here with their respectable reasons to share them with me so I may be enlightened.


    You have been. And then you described ex-Muslims as rebelling for the sake of it. Now that is what is called a 'dig'

    The words in the article are so accurate they even describe and predict the response to it:

    Quote from: @CEMB_Forum on December 13, 2012, 07:47 PM

    Under these circumstances, asking the question "Why don’t you be quiet and just leave Islam?" can be seen for what it is – an attempt to de-legitimise the voice of ex-Muslims ( “You’re obsessed” “You need to see a psychologist” ) through belittling their experiences and conscience, emanating from the same impulse that deems leaving and criticising Islam to be the great, unspeakable, mortal sin of ‘major’ apostasy.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #42 - December 21, 2012, 03:40 PM
    Dr_Zhivago,

    Thank you for your answer. Do you mind me asking is you apply the label of ex-Muslim outside of this forum? I am actually interested in how that label applies to you as an individual out in the real world. Do you use it? Does it make a difference when you are talking to somebody who is neither a Muslim or an ex-Muslim?
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #43 - December 21, 2012, 03:47 PM
    Quote
    Do you mind me asking is you apply the label of ex-Muslim outside of this forum?

    Outside this forum I am just a non-practicing muslim to my family, anyone that asks me though depending if they are family or not I will let them know I do not believe in any religion.
    Quote
    Does it make a difference when you are talking to somebody who is neither a Muslim or an ex-Muslim?

    To me it makes a huge difference, unfortunately I am not in the UK, US or Canada where most ex-muslims from this forum reside, so if I am talking to someone that identifies as ex-muslim, I'd most probable kiss him/her

    Quote
    label applies to you as an individual

    Secular Humanist <---- me
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #44 - December 21, 2012, 05:26 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 21, 2012, 02:31 PM
    Why make your primary label an 'ex' label?

    Apart from all the reasons already spelled out to you in this thread? Dunno.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #45 - December 21, 2012, 06:02 PM
    Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?

    I just love x_man
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #46 - December 21, 2012, 06:35 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 21, 2012, 02:31 PM
    But my idea of a role model/ symbol is not one who tells you to leave something for nothing. Rebellling for the sake of rebelling, I don't see the point. There's gotta be some light on the other side.


    You serious? You think we left Islam just for the hell of it? What, we got bored then goodbye Allah? That's what you think? Do you actually read the many responses here or intentionally ignore them? Sounds almost like your trolling.

    Listen, the simplest, simplest explanation is:
    ex-Muslims are those people who discovered that the grass on the other side of the fence is indeed evidently much greener. We meet in forum like this to share our joy on the discovery of just how amazingly green and nutritious the grass over the fence is. And we're telling people who are afraid to jump the fence "hey, it's okay to jump over the fence". We're not forcing people to do it, but if they want they'll have our support. So yeah, we're quite happy and very proud to be ex-Muslims.

    Or do you actually have a problem with the word "ex-"?

    Sure we could call ourselves a bunch of Gumbonites, and name this site the Council of Gumbonites, but who the hell would ever guess what Gumbonites are? Do you know what Gumbonites are? i have no idea what Gumbonites are. Never met them. Hence we choose ex-Muslim as a common reference. You know, as in those-people-who-once-worshipped-Allah. I mean if you like we could call ourselves the-yellow-bastards-who-betrayed-Islam, but that just too long, too tedious, to taxing to type on twitter not too mention down right degrading. Imagine going to a bar and say "hey, aren't you a member of the Council of the-yellow-bastards-who-betrayed-Islam?"

    Ex-Muslim is effective, efficient, concise and get the message accross.

    Besides, we ex-Muslims have developed this really cool secret handshake. I mean it's so cool. But you gotta be an ex-Muslim to know it. And the first rule of ex-Muslim is you never ever talk about the ex-Muslim secret handshake. Never! Ever!
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #47 - December 21, 2012, 06:55 PM
     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy bunny That's one of the funniest posts ever.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #48 - December 21, 2012, 07:06 PM
    Quote from: kamikazeoda on December 21, 2012, 06:35 PM
    Besides, we ex-Muslims have developed this really cool secret handshake. I mean it's so cool. But you gotta be an ex-Muslim to know it. And the first rule of ex-Muslim is you never ever talk about the ex-Muslim secret handshake. Never! Ever!


    Hand in your ex-Muslim ID, please. Your prayer mat and kopiah will be returned to you by post.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #49 - December 21, 2012, 07:07 PM
    Rookie mistake, you hate to see it.  Cheesy
    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #50 - December 21, 2012, 07:27 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 21, 2012, 02:31 PM
    For those who feel that leaving Islam is an achievement in itself, and there's no need for anything beyond that, then I guess I will never get the answer to my question from them.


    Can you achieve it?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #51 - December 21, 2012, 07:37 PM
    Quote from: kamikazeoda on December 21, 2012, 06:35 PM

    Besides, we ex-Muslims have developed this really cool secret handshake. I mean it's so cool. But you gotta be an ex-Muslim to know it. And the first rule of ex-Muslim is you never ever talk about the ex-Muslim secret handshake. Never! Ever!


    At least he didn't blab out that we call ourselves ex-muslims in order to conceal the fact that we are shaytan-worshipers.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #52 - December 21, 2012, 08:54 PM
    kamikazeoda I'm afraid all that typing was only worth its comedy value to some of the others. It has in no way addressed my query in the way I have repeatedly put it. You can call yourself those-people-who-once-worshipped-Allah if you like. You know the Artist formerly known as Prince? Nobody identified him by the 'the artist formerly known as' part. It meant nothing without the 'Prince' at the end to give it meaning. What I don't understand is why you need Muslim, Islam, Allah as part of your label to give your label meaning. If you were a 'shaytan-worshipper' as Alex has said, then that would actually make label-sense to me. Because then 'shaytan' would be what you're about. Is being ex-Muslim what you're all about? Or is there more to you? I came here with the assumption (which I still have) that there is alot more to you. Dr Zhivago is a secular humanist. That's an informative label that tells me alot about him, and if I ever need to get my secular-humanist groove on, I know there's a secular humanist out there I can groove with. The fact that he is an ex-Muslim is relevant yes, but it's not the primary label I hold for him. It may be his primary label for himself, and that is an individual choice.
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #53 - December 21, 2012, 08:58 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 21, 2012, 08:54 PM
    ................ The fact that he is an ex-Muslim is relevant yes, but it's not the primary label I hold for him..................

    what problems you or any one has,  if some one labels themselves as Ex-Muslims, Ex-Christians.. Ex-Jews.. ex Buddhists.. ex-Hindus.. ex-atheists . ex-vegetarians.. ex-non vegetarians.. ex etc..  Mr. KShah_KE?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #54 - December 21, 2012, 09:03 PM
    Look I only came here because you guys go on about how Islam is intolerant. I'm a Muslim, and all my questions have been with the sole aim getting along better, rather than telling people off for how they do things. I'm asking questions. People are assuming I am passing judgement. That is not my intention, neither is it my job to convince you I am not a hater or a troll.
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #55 - December 21, 2012, 09:09 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 21, 2012, 09:03 PM
    ................... People are assuming I am passing judgement. That is not my intention, neither is it my job to convince you I am not a hater or a troll....................

     Shah  no one said anything of that sort to you., please don't get upset.   no one said that you are hater and no one said you are a troll . Just curious, is it the first time that you are  in a forum?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #56 - December 21, 2012, 09:27 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 21, 2012, 08:54 PM
    Is being ex-Muslim what you're all about? Or is there more to you?

    You're right, this forum should be named the Council of Ex-Muslims and Atheists and Theists and Humanists and Nihilists and Poms and Yanks and Vegans and Carnivores and Hippies and Hipsters and Foot Fetishists of Britain Middle-Earth.

    Quote
    The fact that he is an ex-Muslim is relevant yes,

    Oh wait, you're making progress.  Relevance, yes.  Primacy?  No.  Many of us don't even use any one "primary label" to identify ourselves.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #57 - December 21, 2012, 09:30 PM
    Are you saying primacy yes? Please elaborate
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #58 - December 21, 2012, 09:32 PM
    No.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Why Do You Self Identity As Ex-Muslim?
     Reply #59 - December 21, 2012, 09:41 PM
    Ah sod it. I am asking people in a forum called ex-Muslims why they call themselves ex-Muslim. Originally I had directed this question to one individual outside of this forum and they linked me here. I think I will stick to asking individuals the question outside of this forum where they meet me in the big wide world where hopefully my question will be better placed in context.

    Adios my ex-Muslim brethren. As a parting statement I would like to say that declaring the Shahada does not guarantee anyone Heaven. And leaving Islam does not mean an eternity in Hell. Heaven and Hell are abstract concepts, much more complex and sensible than the eternal good vs evil story told to me in Islamic and Christian religious classes. A 'label' does not guarantee you either. No time for me to delve deeper but if anyone is interested you can read a related stuff from Ahmadiyya Muslim literature on www.alislam.org.
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