The Quran - Both Altered And Changed

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The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
Reply #30 - June 04, 2013, 08:37 PM

Quote from: DahirT on June 04, 2013, 04:52 PM
do the scots have a different language then the british
(well slightly yes but in terms of slang and the welsh do) but the differences are resolved when applied in context

secondly the bedoins of quraish fought for 3 days straight over 1 camel going into someone elses territory

yet these arnt bedoins but what was the fight at the time of uthman and ali

due to little differences enlarged by ignorance

(not saying uthman or ali were wrong/ignorant)

It makes no difference if the general language is the same. 7 different qurans were given, each with differnces to the other. The preservation argument is therefore invalid since those 7 branched off into many more versions and from all those versions i believe 2 remain. (if memory surves me right)

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Reply #31 - June 05, 2013, 01:50 PM

Billy (no offence ) you never say anything worth answering
everything you say is subjective
nothing logically going against what Yasir Qadhi said

Gilmari
if the general language is the same then the context is the same
plus the seven were destroyed and only one was kept at uthmans time please watch the yasir qadhi uthman video

ps ill talk fully about the quran after fully proving God and answering all the question (especially on Qadr)

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Reply #32 - June 05, 2013, 01:58 PM

Dahir no offence can be taken to inane nonsense like this:

Quote
everything you say is subjective

You regurgitate the snake oil, hysterical dawah style of the likes of Hamza Tzortzis into gibberish. Which is a real achievment, because their dawah is already gibberish to begin with.

Inane dawah propaganda translated into further incoherent inanity doesn't sell here.

Up your game.

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Reply #33 - June 05, 2013, 03:41 PM

There is a flow chart of the different versions/dialects of the Qu'ran which I saw somewhere, I think linked from here, where is it? It is on a beige background.
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Reply #34 - June 05, 2013, 03:54 PM

wasnt the quran memorised?

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Reply #35 - June 05, 2013, 04:04 PM

Don't worry, I found it. I will link it up here for ease of access to the area.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=572333196133661&set=pb.454338414599807.-2207520000.1370447789.&type=3&theater
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Reply #36 - June 27, 2013, 08:06 PM

Sooooo...... let me get this straight. The quran we have today is caliphate uthman's subjective opinion of what some people were supposed to have remembered decades before about a man they once knew who had died some decades earlier who said that an angel said a god had told him?

That is at least three degrees of separation from the alleged original word.

Sounds like 'my mate once told me that he knew a guy, who had a friend that said his great grandfather once claimed to have known a guy who met an angel that told him what god wants'

Hardly 'straight from the horse's mouth' is it?

I am better than your god......and so are you.

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Reply #37 - June 27, 2013, 08:50 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on June 27, 2013, 08:06 PM
Sooooo...... let me get this straight. The quran we have today is caliphate uthman's subjective opinion of what some people were supposed to have remembered decades before about a man they once knew who had died some decades earlier who said that an angel said a god had told him?

That is at least three degrees of separation from the alleged original word.

Sounds like 'my mate once told me that he knew a guy, who had a friend that said his great grandfather once claimed to have known a guy who met an angel that told him what god wants'

Hardly 'straight from the horse's mouth' is it?

And then you have all the versions afterwards as can be seen in my post.

Quote from: Lilyesque on June 05, 2013, 04:04 PM
Don't worry, I found it. I will link it up here for ease of access to the area.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=572333196133661&set=pb.454338414599807.-2207520000.1370447789.&type=3&theater

(Clicky for piccy!)
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Reply #38 - July 28, 2013, 09:06 PM

"the quran - billions read it, millions memorised it, ever wonder why?"

Er.... cos they were afraid that if they didn't they would burn in hell forever?

Do I get 5 points?

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
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Reply #39 - July 28, 2013, 10:51 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on July 28, 2013, 09:06 PM
"the quran - billions read it, millions memorised it, ever wonder why?"

I don;t think so., billions might have read verses here and there and millions might have memorized some verses here and there...

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Reply #40 - December 26, 2013, 08:10 PM

What was different in Sana'a Manuscripts and with the modern Quran?
I have heard there was nothing besides different Surah order and spelling differences.

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Reply #41 - December 26, 2013, 08:22 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-PT0J-NWyQ

The hidden origins of Islam by Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Gerd-R. Puin

The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Koran by Christoph Luxenberg

What do Hadiths say about the Qur'an?

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Reply #42 - December 26, 2013, 08:41 PM

Can you put the major points with text? I cannot listen now.

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I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
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Reply #43 - December 26, 2013, 08:47 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on December 26, 2013, 08:41 PM
Can you put the major points with text? I cannot listen now.

well..

Quote
1). The Sana'a palimpsest is one of the oldest Qur'anic manuscripts in existence.[1] It was found, along with many other Qur'anic and non-Qur'anic fragments, in Yemen in 1972 during restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a. The manuscript is written on parchment, and comprises two layers of text (see palimpsest). The upper text conforms to the standard 'Uthmanic Qur'an, whereas the lower text contains many variants to the standard text. Radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment containing the lower text to before 671 AD with a 99% accuracy.

Quote
The UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, had compiled a CD containing some of the dated Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts as a part of "Memory of the World" programme. In this CD there are many Qur'anic manuscripts written in the hijazi script which are dated from 1st century of hijra, one of them belonging to early 1st century. Many more manuscripts have been dated from the period 1st / 2nd century of hijra. We will be showing only a few examples below.

Sure they will come online with translation..

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Reply #44 - December 26, 2013, 08:54 PM

When studying introductory course in usool al tafseer, we went very briefly through the compilation of the Quran and the 7 different variations. According to Muslim sources, the Quran was successfully compiled, even if many of the "Reciters" had died, and the Quran was still preserved because "it says so in the Quran" (whatever...). The seven different variants are only the different qiraa'at that we have today, with minor differences that all convey similar meanings, but with different layers and "wisdoms" behind it. But when I read this: http://research-islam.blogspot.se/2013/03/did-memorisation-preserve-quran.html it all made perfect sence. What the actual islamic sources seemed to say, was not the same thing as what the islamic scholars wanted them to say. This article just confirmed this notion I had from the very beginning. It becomes even more "sneaky" and dishonest when you find out that very controversial narrations are kept "hidden" (ie they are not mentioned and scholars did not want to mention them despite them being highly relevant to the subject).

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Reply #45 - December 26, 2013, 09:42 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on December 26, 2013, 08:54 PM
......... According to Muslim sources, the Quran was successfully compiled, even if many of the "Reciters" had died, and the Quran was still preserved because "it says so in the Quran" (whatever...). ..........

I am sure many of these so-called Islamic scholars realizes that there silly verses of Quran are compiled as book at least 10 or 20 years after the death of alleged Prophet., The Quran was allegedly revealed to Prophet since he was a 40 year old guy and he died when he was 63.

That means 23 years prophet's time + at least another 20 years before it became book ., and that means these so called Sahaba reciters must remember every word to word what prophet said in some congregation for 43 years and on top of that they have to differentiate between revelations and other sayings/talks of Prophet..

How did they do it?? these guys had some sort of tape recorder from allah?? Fools write nonsense.

And.. and on top of all that when you look at the Quran., It is filled with stories from other religions along with pagan rituals and we have 30% of useless nonsense. Plus you have verses filed with Prophet's personal junky life such as
Quote
O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise.

And when the prophet secretly communicated a piece of information to one of his wives-- but when she informed (others) of it, and Allah made him to know it, he made known part of it and avoided part; so when he informed her of it, she said: Who informed you of this? He said: The Knowing, the one Aware, informed me.

Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.

What nonsense is that? Prophet gets "submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins. if he divorces his wives??"

garbage ., And these EARLY ISLAMIC IDIOTS added all that nonsense together and a made book as Word of Allah/god??

At least if these fools put that in to hadith. I would have flatly rejected., Saying "Hadith is nonsense but Quran is good". Well fools who collated that book in the first place didn't even give that chance..

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Reply #46 - December 26, 2013, 11:21 PM

Ultimately, why is there abrogation? Is God confused? Only after Umme Salma complained that men and women are not mentioned in equal footing that God started mentioning "Believing men, believing women...." Maybe God forgot that women are also human beings?! 6:146 (Y. Ali) For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone: this in recompense for their wilful disobedience: for We are true (in Our ordinances). I mean pork is not allowed because it is unhealthy, but why fat of ox and sheep (except for that back and entrails)? Didn't the Muslims of Muhammad's time commit crimes, so why weren't they deprived of some delicious foods? The Quran is a book for all time but certain hostile verses are only for that certain time? The verses of the Quran are not all that was revealed to Muhammad, there were some not included according to God's will. And memorisation? Do you know of that game called Telephone?
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Reply #47 - December 27, 2013, 02:40 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 26, 2013, 09:42 PM
I am sure many of these so-called Islamic scholars realizes that there silly verses of Quran are compiled as book at least 10 or 20 years after the death of alleged Prophet., The Quran was allegedly revealed to Prophet since he was a 40 year old guy and he died when he was 63.

That means 23 years prophet's time + at least another 20 years before it became book ., and that means these so called Sahaba reciters must remember every word to word what prophet said in some congregation for 43 years and on top of that they have to differentiate between revelations and other sayings/talks of Prophet..

How did they do it?? these guys had some sort of tape recorder from allah?? Fools write nonsense.

And.. and on top of all that when you look at the Quran., It is filled with stories from other religions along with pagan rituals and we have 30% of useless nonsense. Plus you have verses filed with Prophet's personal junky life such as What nonsense is that? Prophet gets "submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins. if he divorces his wives??"

garbage ., And these EARLY ISLAMIC IDIOTS added all that nonsense together and a made book as Word of Allah/god??

At least if these fools put that in to hadith. I would have flatly rejected., Saying "Hadith is nonsense but Quran is good". Well fools who collated that book in the first place didn't even give that chance..

You are a nice person, Yeezevee. I mean, you have put this just right, I think you have great intentions.

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Reply #48 - January 30, 2014, 09:06 PM

"The Quran - Never changed or altered in 1500 years!

Why is that necessarily an argument in its favour? That just says to me it is 1500 years out of date.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
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Reply #49 - January 30, 2014, 09:28 PM

Question.

Does anyone know how old is the oldest complete quran we have today? A quick search tells me that Uthman canonized the first one in the 650s, and destroyed all others, so even this early quran is just Uthman's subjective take on it.

So rather than the quran being the 'direct work of god' it had already been through a 'Chinese Whispers style' process by several degrees of separation.

So todays quran has already gone through:

Allah > Gabriel > Mo > Mo's friends (who 'remembered' what he had said 20 years earlier) > who then wrote some of it down > and was later edited/padded out by Uthman.

So the quran is like the usual total bollocks pub story:

"My mate says his great-great...(miss a few)......-great grandfather heard from some guys who wrote a book who said they had heard it from some people who said they knew a guy who said he had heard it from an angel who said he had heard it from god...... Totally true, straight up!!! Oh yeah pint of Guinness for me mate, cheers!"

Hardly straight from the source is it?

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
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Reply #50 - January 31, 2014, 01:35 AM

The oldest complete Quran is 2 to 3 centuries after Uthman. There are fragments of earlier Qurans. However give that these fragments prove the tradition that the quran is unaltered wrong these are not accepted as authentic. As you said a game of Chinese whispers which in fact was the cause of Uthman codifying the Quran. The game of whispers started within the life time of Muhammad and continued for decades after this death.
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Reply #51 - February 18, 2014, 09:40 PM

I don't know why believers think this argument is evidence that the book is true. So EVEN IF it's never been changed since it was first written, so what???!! It still has to stand on its claims and its merits (which are few and far between)

You can have a book which was wrong to start with, and having never been changed, is STILL wrong!

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
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Reply #52 - February 18, 2014, 09:48 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on February 18, 2014, 09:40 PM
I don't know why believers think this argument is evidence that the book is true.

That has a simple answer Adey5 ., Because THEY ARE STUPID and their commonsense goes out of the window the moment they moment they go in to this Quran... It is ISLAMIC meme...

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Reply #53 - February 26, 2014, 09:46 PM

I have an idea, why don't Gilmari and DahirT open up a subject and discuss whether allah or yahweh is the 'one true god', while the rest of us can sit back and watch?

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Reply #54 - September 23, 2014, 03:58 PM

The Pre-Islamic Sources of the Qur'an

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-oPiKXouK8

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #55 - May 15, 2016, 05:43 PM

Dear GROUP-

Please do not read any deeper into my comments as I will state verbatim how I feel and what is provable.

The plain an simple truth is easy and not complicated. Human beings/Mankind tend to put several spins on simple matters which do nothing short of how The Shaytan/Devil/Enemy/Evil One; or whatever you choose to call it; it doesn't matter, plays his game. He causes deception by way of confusion. Muslims; Christians, and Jews are all Cousin/Brothers to one another and should not be fighting your own relative. Especially not about your own choices in practicing and serving your Lord. The constant seeking and digging to refute validity of Quran is useless and only causes more harm rather than good. The reason is; that it does nothing but cause those who believe in Allah and the Quran to come back with rebuttal and there the cycle repeats itself once again. Another ball of confusion when in the Holy Quran and every other scripture; we already know to part in peace ie agree to disagree. Not to mention; so many people try so hard to find and twist what they want to prove their point. All the claims about the non-abrogated fact of the Holy Quran are based on Hadith and we all know that many are fake. Therefore; unless REAL proofs are presented, this post is nothing short of an verbal assault on the choice of being Muslim that Muslims make. The fact is that none of this is about Muslims; Islam or Quran but the truth is humans aren't being honest that this is really more about looking for an opening which just might justify their desires to do whatever they want to do. Therefore; sitting back trying to poke holes in Quran and Islam is another attempt to do so because it is still the only source that will not accept the changes that the bibles and Taurut AKA Torah has allowed. The bibles went from not allowing pork and fornication to allowing it because the blood protects your sins. But that's not the same in the Holy Quran and Islam therefore; in my humble opinion has led to the assault on Islam and the Holy Quran. In other words Islam and The Holy Quran has become the Scapegoat because it will not "let people do what they want to do."

Since all of us will indeed die off of this earth; and no one has come back to tell us how it is, we should all be wise to be careful about our actions while we're here.

Thank you for allowing me to share my point of view.
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Reply #56 - May 15, 2016, 05:55 PM
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Reply #57 - May 15, 2016, 06:12 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 23, 2014, 03:58 PM
The Pre-Islamic Sources of the Qur'an

The guy who put that video up seems to have got banned, and there aren't any legit sites hosting it elsewhere.

And Dr Kalima, maybe some people are "sitting back trying to poke holes in Quran", but that doesn't apply to research on its pre-Islamic sources. If anything that line of research is out to PATCH holes in the Qur'an, when the book refers to stuff that made sense in the first century and makes no such sense now in the fifteenth. Stuff like the Alexander Nes'hana. Scroll to page 175.
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Reply #58 - June 04, 2016, 06:09 PM

LOL! I have to be honest, I laughed from these points. Literally, every single point has been refuted already.

Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
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