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 Topic: Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?

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  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     OP - January 15, 2013, 08:42 PM
    does the quran place Allah outside of time and space? or is this just a recently invented post hoc rationalisation.

    btw: I have come to the conclusion that the 7 heavens are a further proof that the quran is geocentric.
    There was a pre existing belief that 5 visible planets plus the sun and the moon each orbit the flat earth in one of seven celestial spheres. The quran is all too compatible with this
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #1 - January 15, 2013, 09:05 PM
    Great question! While most modern Islamic apologists would argue that the seven heavens exist in some metaphysical realm, a serious reading of the Qur’an can only lead to the conclusion that Muhammad was describing features of the sky above him. For example the “lowest heaven” is said to be decorated with the “beauty of the stars” and Allah is credited with making the sun and the moon as lights and lamps in all seven.

    Surah Nuh:

    15. See you not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
    16. And has made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?
    Also, the belief in seven layers of the night sky was not a new, uniquely Islamic introduction. Many ancient civilizations had identified 7 major heavenly bodies and thought that each occupied its own layer in heaven. Namely, the sun, the moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn were all easily observable in the ancient sky and were distinguishable from the stars and considered the classical “Planets.” Each was given a special day of the week for veneration, and those week days survive until today. Not knowing any better, it is no surprise that Muhammad adopted this flawed, geocentric view of the universe, accepting it as a matter of fact and incorporating it into his Qur’an.
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #2 - January 15, 2013, 09:19 PM
    Even introducing a slight amount of metaphor to a reading of the Quran can make it fall apart like a house of cards
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #3 - January 15, 2013, 09:48 PM
    There are many hadith that talk about Allah descending to the “lowest heaven.” For exaple, in Bukhari and Muslim we read:

    The Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “The Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

    When I was a Muslim, these Hadiths really bothered me. How could Allah do this when it is always the last third of the night somewhere? Honestly, I had this image of Allah hovering above the dark portion of the earth, spinning with its rotations, repeating his requests for 24 hours ad infinitum. This actually troubled me so much that I asked a Shaikh about it and got the response that Allah is not subject to the laws of time and space and therefore is nor confined by those restraints. Somehow, that satisfied me then.

    Another interesting read that gives insight into Islam’s geocentric nature is to research the so called “bait al Ma’mur.” Supposedly, it is the heavenly version of the kaaba that exists above the 7th heaven, directly above the earthly kaaba. The hadith say that if you drop a stone from the bait al ma’mur, it will land directly on the roof of the kaaba in Mecca. Again, that raises so many problems when you consider the rotation of the earth, its annual tilts on its axis, its rotation around the sun, and its relatively tiny place in our universe.
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #4 - January 15, 2013, 09:59 PM
    Quote
    got the response that Allah is not subject to the laws of time and space and therefore is nor confined by those restraints.


    That annoys me so much. It annoys me that people cannot see how obvious the cop out is.

    The space that God has been said to occupy in the real universe is inversely correlated with the growing ability of science to actually find anything out.
    There is so little of the real universe left for god to hide, that nowadays, theists can only find him in the only place where science can't look; outside of time and space. You might as well say 'outside of reason and sense', and in fact, many of them do.

     
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #5 - January 15, 2013, 10:11 PM
    You are right, dr sloth. This is certainly a cheap cop out. In Islam, however, it is a defensible position, even from a traditional standpoint. The God of Islam is definitely separate from his alleged creation. Therefore, from an Islamic standpoint, if time and space are created, one can reasonably argue that they can have no impact on God or ability to limit his power. Of course, I don't believe in any of it now, so I don't need to jump through such logical hoops. But when I did believe in it, it made sense at the time and fit well with scripture.
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #6 - January 15, 2013, 11:36 PM
    Interesting stuff happymurtad. What sense can be made of the word "descends" in that verse? Movement only makes sense in the context of space-time, in relation to objects therein. I'm asking because I thought Allah wasn't supposed to have a body.
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #7 - January 16, 2013, 12:15 AM
    It’s the same “magic” card that religious people always pull. God can use his magic card to always be above his throne and descending to the lowest heaven— at the same time—without being constrained by the laws of space and time that would usually hinder a lesser being from such a feat. He uses his magic card to interact with and change the laws of physics as he needs, causing miracles, defying logic, and having a dual existence in the physical and metaphysical realms as best suits him. Whaddaya expect? He’s God!
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #8 - January 16, 2013, 06:43 PM
    The problem I have with the Heavens part of the quran and Interpretations. The commentators do not seem to make clear what exactly they mean when they say Heaven. Is it paradise or a discription of the sky or universe. They seem to use is simutaneously.
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #9 - January 16, 2013, 07:02 PM
    That’s a great observation. In Arabic, unlike in English, the words for heaven meaning sky and heaven meaning paradise are not the same. The word samaa’ (plural samawat) refers only to the skies, or more literally, to that which is “high above.”  According to the Qur’an, the samaa’ has seven layers. It is where the rain comes from, where the stars, sun, moon, and planets exist, and where the clouds are. The samaa’ or samawat are never offered as a reward for belief and good deeds. They are not the same as Jannah. Jannah is a garden, or more literally, a place hidden under lush vegetation. Jannah is the place of reward for believers and doers of good.  However, it can be understood that one would have to travel through the samawat to reach Jannah, Allah, and the angels. 
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #10 - January 16, 2013, 09:03 PM
    Thanks man, really cleared that up nice. I've got a new angle to argue from now cheers. dance
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #11 - January 16, 2013, 11:22 PM
    Interesting thread. I always had problems with how the Quran dealt with the Universe. It mentions the stars functioning as missiles against devils/jinns/other hokuspokus-entities. Now, if this could be singled out as a metaphorical statement, how does it coexist with the Quran repeatedly reminding us that its words are clear and complete?

    And the 7 heavens thing is so vague and ambiguous, there is no way you can debate a Muslim on this, without there being an easy way out, interpretation-wise. Tnx to happymurtad for explaining some of it, though.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #12 - January 17, 2013, 12:51 AM
    The only excuse I can remember is that the lowest heaven is what we could consider the universe and 2 -7 are magical realms.
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #13 - January 17, 2013, 03:48 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on January 17, 2013, 12:51 AM
    The only excuse I can remember is that the lowest heaven is what we could consider the universe and 2 -7 are magical realms.


    I've heard that excuse before too. The only problem is that in surah nuh it clearly says that the sun and moon are lights and lamps in all seven. I don't see any reason to believe that Muhammad was not just adopting the flawed, ancient view of the physical universe that I described above.
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #14 - January 17, 2013, 05:07 PM
    Quote
    does the quran place Allah outside of time and space? or is this just a recently invented post hoc rationalisation.


    Definitely invented later

    Quote
    The Natural and the Supernatural in the Middle Ages
    Robert Bartlett, University of St Andrews, Scotland
    Paperback
    Series: The Wiles Lectures
    ISBN:9780521702553
    Publication date:April 2008


    How did people of the medieval period explain physical phenomena, such as eclipses or the distribution of land and water on the globe?

    What creatures did they think they might encounter: angels, devils, witches, dogheaded people? This fascinating book explores the ways in which medieval people categorized the world, concentrating on the division between the natural and the supernatural and showing how the idea of the supernatural came to be invented in the Middle Ages.

    Robert Bartlett examines how theologians and others sought to draw lines between the natural, the miraculous, the marvelous and the monstrous, and the many conceptual problems they encountered as they did so.

    The final chapter explores the extraordinary thought-world of Roger Bacon as a case study exemplifying these issues. By recovering the mentalities of medieval writers and thinkers the book raises the critical question of how we deal with beliefs we no longer share.


    http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowledge/isbn/item1164345/?site_locale=en_GB


    The quran feels very backwards - the Greeks had worked out the world was round a thousand years before, Hypatia 400 CE had got a rudimentary idea of elliptical orbits around the sun.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #15 - January 17, 2013, 05:15 PM
    Has anyone developed a powerful picture of how people saw the world in different places and times?

    What would you conclude about the universe without telescopes and microscopes, theories, laws, maths, genes, atoms, electrons, quantum physics, computers, electricity, zero, anthropology, archaeology ....
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #16 - January 22, 2013, 06:10 PM
    Quote
    What would you conclude about the universe without telescopes and microscopes, theories, laws, maths, genes, atoms, electrons, quantum physics, computers, electricity, zero, anthropology, archaeology


    The earth is obviously flat.
    The sun and moon obviously orbit the earth.
    The sky is obviously a (perhaps solid) dome. I also think that raising the sky from the ground is another easy intuitive conclusion to reach. How else did the sky get 'up' there?
    Humans are obviously better than 'the animals', and special in some way - especially my tribe. We are probably chosen.
    Death is not actually the end. Obviously our minds continue to exist in some sense. Perhaps reincarnation would be easy to believe.
    Obviously there are beings which control the weather, and they can be angered and appeased. They have human emotions.
    The earth seems to have everything we need to live. The gods must really like me.
    Humans are incubated inside a woman, but really, it is all about the sperm. We were each an individual drop of sperm.

  • Are the seven heavens all part of the material universe?
     Reply #17 - January 22, 2013, 06:49 PM
    Where I live is the centre of the universe...
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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