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Theme Changer

 Topic: Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.

 (Read 3718 times)
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  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     OP - January 16, 2013, 10:12 PM

    I'm not an ex-Muslim but I was raised in a cult full of ridiculous rules and oppression so I feel that I can relate to many of the stories that I have read on here to some degree, sadly my experiences pale in comparison to some of the horror stories that I have read about what many of you have had to endure, and it both saddens and angers me because love should be unconditional and religion does not automatically make you a better person.

     I became curious about Islam because I have a few friends and acquaintances that are Muslim, even though I am atheist and detest any sort of organized religions I do try to respect the views and faiths of others so I decided to research  Islam in order to better understand some of what I was encountering such as: why the women had to cover they're heads and why did they get stuck doing all of the housework or chores despite the fact that some of these ladies have several son's and capable spouses that sit and watch tv or go out for fun without lifting a finger while the women struggle to manage large households and demands for more.
     When I questioned one lady in particular about Islam's beliefs she told me that she wasn't sure and that she couldn't remember much, but she did know the rules and what was expected of her, this was her answer that she did not really know much about the religion that she had converted too over two decades ago!
    I was like  Huh?

      My research left me aghast at the amount of oppression women have to endure and the extremist religious theology that promotes a culture of hate, violence and elitism, this left me feeling that the Islam being presented to us here in the west was very different  from those clerics who claim with a smile on they're faces that Islam is a friendly and peaceful religion that promotes love.
     So far I have avoided bringing this up with the Muslims that I know because I do not want to be labeled an Islamaphobe nor do I wish to make things awkward between us just because I disagree with Islams views on marital rape, wife beating, arranged marriages etc...
     Thankfully I found this place which gives me hope that people are breaking the mold and looking to help others that want a way out of religious bondage, I belonged to a similar one years ago that helped me deal with some of my unresolved feelings about leaving.

    I would love to see the people I know live free lives but I know that's easier said than done, I worry for the daughter of my friend because her father is limiting who she can marry just because they are not from SA, being Muslim is not good enough for him and that poor child fell for a nice young man at the mosque they attend.  Cry
    These situations leave me feeling angry and frustrated because it's not in my nature to keep quite but I fear loosing the friends and severing perhaps the only connection the women have to the outside world that can help them when they are ready.
    Seeds of doubt can be a powerful weapon.
    I'm not sure what to do or how to proceed in these cases.
    I have no idea how long this site has been around but I hope that the admin keeps up the good work.
     thnkyu
     



    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #1 - January 16, 2013, 10:28 PM

    Hi MB Smiley

    Do you mind me asking which cult you were raised in?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #2 - January 16, 2013, 10:39 PM

    Welcome MB Smiley

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #3 - January 16, 2013, 10:42 PM

    I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness.

    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #4 - January 17, 2013, 12:46 AM

    I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness.



    Well sorry if I've ever "forgot to keep the dog back" when you came a knocking... whistling2

    Okay maybe I don't do that. My dog doesn't attack people anyway, just sniffs them.

    Still, welcome parrot. I'm also not an ex-muslim, but in addition to that I'm not an ex of any other religion. wacko
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #5 - January 17, 2013, 10:17 AM

    When I questioned one lady in particular about Islam's beliefs she told me that she wasn't sure and that she couldn't remember much, but she did know the rules and what was expected of her, this was her answer that she did not really know much about the religion that she had converted too over two decades ago!
    I was like  Huh?


    Hello and welcome aboard!

    The ignorance you mention above is frighteningly common among Muslims... Mention the permissibility of sexually enslaving non-Muslim females (off the battlefield), or the acceptance of adult men marrying pre-pubescent girls, and even the permission the Qur'an gives for a husband to "beat" his wife... and MANY Muslims (especially "cultural" ones) will FLATLY deny your assertions. And it's not that they're lying... they GENUINELY believe that those things are not a part of their religion. You see, they have been conditioned into believing that Islam is indeed a "religion of peace", and that Muhammad is the "best" example of what a man should be. I even knew an Arab guy recently who was absolutely convinced that Muhammad didn't have sex with the young Aisha until she was a teenager (i.e. "ready" for it, in his words)... when I said that the Hadeeth themselves proved she was only 9 years old when he first had sex with her, he almost took my head off... At that point, I knew it was better to simply leave him be... for now Wink

    My advice is to have sympathy with the average Muslim, as they truly do not know their own religion. Just use what they consider to be "authentic" sources when you expose their religion (i.e. Qur'an, Bukhari, Muslim & the Seerah), and that's the best way - the best chance - you'll have of "waking" them up Wink

    All the best, from a genuine Muslim apostate.
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #6 - January 17, 2013, 01:29 PM

    Welcome!

     parrot

    Quote
    The ignorance you mention above is frighteningly common among Muslims... Mention the permissibility of sexually enslaving non-Muslim females (off the battlefield), or the acceptance of adult men marrying pre-pubescent girls, and even the permission the Qur'an gives for a husband to "beat" his wife... and MANY Muslims (especially "cultural" ones) will FLATLY deny your assertions. And it's not that they're lying... they GENUINELY believe that those things are not a part of their religion. You see, they have been conditioned into believing that Islam is indeed a "religion of peace", and that Muhammad is the "best" example of what a man should be. I even knew an Arab guy recently who was absolutely convinced that Muhammad didn't have sex with the young Aisha until she was a teenager (i.e. "ready" for it, in his words)... when I said that the Hadeeth themselves proved she was only 9 years old when he first had sex with her, he almost took my head off.


    Is there a clear simple short guide available to what Islam is, possibly showing the main differences between groups?

    It can of course reference everything properly.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #7 - January 17, 2013, 01:53 PM

    hi and welcome MB  Smiley
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #8 - January 17, 2013, 08:01 PM

    I personally do not understand how someone can convert to a religion and lifestyle without understanding what they are getting into beforehand, however I do know that some people convert in name only in order to appease family before marriage, however it's my opinion that if you want to do it for those reasons you should at least have a basic understanding of the religion and not rely on just making sure you abide by the rules.

     Maybe she loves him, or maybe she loves his ability to provide a certain level of comfort...  Undecided

    Some people enjoy the boundaries religion provides because it gives them a sense of status that they may be lacking otherwise and does all of the thinking for them, I thankfully belong to neither one of those groups.

    Quote
    Well sorry if I've ever "forgot to keep the dog back" when you came a knocking...

    Okay maybe I don't do that. My dog doesn't attack people anyway, just sniffs them.

    Still, welcome . I'm also not an ex-muslim, but in addition to that I'm not an ex of any other religion.


    I was shitty witness so they kept me from initiating contact at the door most of the time, but I still lost plenty of good weekends peddling useless literature and annoying poor homeowners against my will. furious

    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #9 - January 17, 2013, 09:10 PM

    Welcome to the forums MB parrot bunny I think we have an ex-JW or two here.
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #10 - January 17, 2013, 09:38 PM

    Welcome MB.  bunny

    I have two ex-Jehovah's Witness friends, and they're great women.

    To your friend who you said met a man she likes at the mosque - but since he isn't from the country she's from, her parents won't let her marry him?
    Tell her she's mistaken about that. She has options, but the culture Islam cultivates in some families/people (like her parents) is one that restricts to the point of suffocation. It limits beautiful possibilities in this world, and sadly at the cost of people's lives - love lives, reproductive lives, and so on.

    She has a choice, but she doesn't realise she does because she is clouded by what her parents are saying - their strong disapproval of bullshit.

    And in fact, she could use Islam as justification. Her father is not even allowed to keep her from marrying another Muslim man, according to Islam, for a petty reason such as not being of the same ethnicity. She could use that to her advantage and show the support in the religion for it. But she has to be brave, fight fight fight, and probably be called all sorts of horrible things - a rebel, disrespectful to her parents (they will for sure tell her that if she even THINKS of fighting for what she wants to try to live HER life) etc. She has to take that first step though and stand up for what she wants. It's not easy to do. It goes against the set up the nature of Islam has created in most of us, especially women: being submissive, not questioning, being 'okay' with everything and living a black and white life as opposed to a colorful one.

    I say all this because it's a trend I'm seeing lately in Muslim women. It came to my attention a while ago when we had some Turkish women do a guest presentation in one of my uni classes, about Islam. Another student asked something like "Why do we rarely see any Muslim women taking positions of authority or leadership in any community, for any cause such as political, in the mosque, or elsewhere? There doesn't seem to be enough active Muslim women leaders who put themselves out there."
    The poor Turkish woman responded that she doesn't know why there aren't many active women, but ensured us that 'it has nothing to do with Islam.'
    Well I don't believe that. I think it has everything to do with Islam.
    Islam makes women think a certain way, whether they realise it or not. It makes not put ourselves out there as much, for a variety of reasons. It doesn't encourage women being in the front lines.
    It fosters an environment where women are less confident, less independent and strong. Instead, they rely on the men in their family - who do all the 'leading' and talking for them. They are so used to that position that they don't even think to step out of it, and take matters into their own hands. They are content.

    This is sad for me to realise, because a lot of Muslims believe Islam doesn't do this. It's not explicitly forbidden for women to participate in public activity, however they don't realise that the culture of the religion is not helping them in any way. But of course they don't ... because if they did, the questions and doubts would begin. Le sigh.

    Sorry I went O/T here, but I've been particularly interested with this topic and it makes me wish I was a Middle Eastern or Islamic studies major right about now. Or heck, Gender or Women's Issues, so I can write about this.

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #11 - January 17, 2013, 11:10 PM

    Welcome MB! Hope you like it here.
    I used to be a JW too Smiley

  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #12 - January 18, 2013, 12:19 AM

    Welcome!

    Don't worry, you're not an islamophobe, you sound like many of us, and our families are Muslim Tongue

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #13 - January 18, 2013, 05:15 PM

    Hi, I used to be a jw too. There's quite a few ex jws (even a active jw on here lynna) I like to go on this forum because I can relate to ex muslims more than other ex Christians.
    I suspect it is the same for the other ex jws on here?. I believe there's many similarities between jws  and muslims then jws and other Christians.

    I mean jws like muslims focus on works rather then faith. They engage in weekly fiqh studies (wt studies) with a heavy focus on dawah. Plus there is a hugh stigma attached to becoming an apostate jw. you get shunned by family members who are jws. Similar to muslims. what do you think.. mb and sir wankalot.?
    However, I don't post much on here because im not a ex muslim
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #14 - January 19, 2013, 05:41 AM

    Welcome to the forum! Out of interest, is there an ex-JW community out there - forums, meet-up groups, etc?
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #15 - January 19, 2013, 03:12 PM

    I mean jws like muslims focus on works rather then faith. They engage in weekly fiqh studies (wt studies) with a heavy focus on dawah. Plus there is a hugh stigma attached to becoming an apostate jw. you get shunned by family members who are jws. Similar to muslims. what do you think.. mb and sir wankalot.?
    However, I don't post much on here because im not a ex muslim


    Yes I find the JW faith is similar in many ways to other high control religions like Islam or maybe evangelical christianity.
    Most people find it easy to be culturally christian since you can lead a fairly liberal lifestyle and even if you decide you don't want to go to church anymore etc, you don't get any hassle for it. They don't really understand the problems and challenges you encounter from being part of a cult like group that micro manages your life.

    Everything you do as a JW is scrutinised. What you wear, what kind of movies you watch, what music you listen to, what books you read ... everything is bad and 'influenced' by satan, so you better be aware!! Stay away from the internet, don't associate with 'worldy' people. Education is bad too.
    Mixing between the sexes is frowned upon... you don't want to be tempted. Obviously if you want to 'date' someone, you need to be chaperoned.
    You definitely need to spend all your time in as many 'spiritual' activities as possible. If you miss a meeting, people want to know why.
    If you get into the bad books, you are hauled in front of a 'judiciary committee' and might end up being 'disfellowshipped', which means everyone who knows you - parents, friends etc.. have to instantly disown you like a leper and cut off all contact.

    People go from having an entire system of family and friends (and even employers) to none, leaving them depressed and adrift and I think many ex muslims have had to deal with such issues too. There are loads of JWs who stay quiet and pretend to go through the motions, to avoid losing their kids, spouses or friends.

    Ok I'll stop rambling Grin

    P.S. Also, I like the people here. Lovely bunch of godless, immoral folk that I wouldn't mind going to hell with (if there was one)  Afro

  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #16 - January 19, 2013, 03:19 PM

    Welcome to the forum! Out of interest, is there an ex-JW community out there - forums, meet-up groups, etc?


    There are quite a few forums and meet-up groups, but AFAIK there isn't a formal organisation to lobby on behalf of ex-JWs. We are a bit of a disorganised bunch in that way.

  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #17 - January 19, 2013, 06:23 PM

    I suppose the difference is political - it was the political Islamist movement that catalysed the formation of the CEMB. In the absence of JW groups with state power, there are different motivations. It certainly seems that, on the personal level, there are many similarities in leaving Islam/JW.
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #18 - January 19, 2013, 10:59 PM

    There are a few Ex-JW forums on the net, they should be required reading for anybody wanting information on the theology or lack of it that this cult extols.

     I do see a lot of similarities between Islam and JW's, it's actually kind of scary looking back now at how much the governing body borrowed from Mohammed.

    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #19 - January 19, 2013, 11:46 PM

    Welcome to the forum, MB. Afro

    When I was a closet apostate, I watched Richard Dawkins' interview with Jill Mytton, an ex cult member of the Exclusive Brethren and now counselling psychologist.  I could relate to many aspects of the cult.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #20 - January 20, 2013, 12:38 AM

    Welcome MB,
    What's the difference between a Cult and a religion? . . . About six 0's.
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #21 - January 20, 2013, 07:22 PM

    Welcome MB,
    What's the difference between a Cult and a religion? . . . About six 0's.


    I heard that the difference between a cult and a religion is that in a religion the founder is dead.
  • Non Ex-Muslim glad to see a site like this.
     Reply #22 - January 20, 2013, 07:32 PM

    Welcome MB,
    What's the difference between a Cult and a religion? . . . About six 0's.

    That's actually quite accurate, as is the dead founder factor. If Mo emerged from a cave in Makkah today, claimed an invisible wing-bearing angel spoke to him and he was sent by God, married a dozen women (including a child), had a couple of dozen followers and said anyone who leaves should be killed, he'd be considered a cult leader without a doubt.
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