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 Topic: How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?

 (Read 30333 times)
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  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #60 - February 01, 2013, 08:18 PM
    Speak for yourself. If you're in the closet, you've already failed at ignoring social pressures.
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #61 - February 01, 2013, 08:22 PM
    Quote from: Luthiel on January 30, 2013, 08:18 PM
    http://jezebel.com/5977025/unhappy-with-your-gross-vagina-why-not-try-the-barbie

    Seriously, I'd like to know people's opinions on this. Socially, FGM is completely unacceptable and MGM is becoming less common/acceptable, but now labiaplasty is all the rage? The procedure and all its implications are simply disgusting, are they not?

    ETA:


    Perhaps it is further down that slippery slope that is the pornification of society. I mean stripper clothes and hooker heels of thirty years ago are sorta mainstream chic now.
    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #62 - February 01, 2013, 08:36 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on February 01, 2013, 08:18 PM
    Speak for yourself. If you're in the closet, you've already failed at ignoring social pressures.


    Way to make assumptions!  Afro
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #63 - February 01, 2013, 08:43 PM
    I didn't make any assumptions; I said if, seeing as I am in the closet, as are many other members. If social pressures were no biggie, that wouldn't be the case.
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #64 - February 01, 2013, 08:58 PM
    Looking your very best is all about self esteem, however it's going to extremes that's an issue.
    I'm not going to lie and say that plastic surgery isn't vain or free of societal pressures to some degree but blaming people who want to have them is scapegoating the real issue.

    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #65 - February 01, 2013, 09:09 PM
    I'm not "scapegoating" anyone. You admit that societal pressure plays a part. The more common and accepted these procedures become, the more the societal pressure will increase. This is how cultural norms become established.

    The cosmetic surgery industry is all about making money by reinforcing existing insecurities, or by attempting to create new insecurities if there aren't any currently available ones to leverage. They will employ any tactics they regard as effective.

    I'm not that concerned about what one person chooses to do with her boobs. You can paint the things purple and stick feathers on them if you like.

    I would be concerned if someone else, who was self-conscious about the small size of her own boobs, took your example as more indication that she required surgery to be attractive enough. IMO, that would be unfortunate, and is something that should definitely not be given verbal (or printed) reinforcement by anyone.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #66 - February 01, 2013, 09:53 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on February 01, 2013, 08:43 PM
    I didn't make any assumptions; I said if, seeing as I am in the closet, as are many other members. If social pressures were no biggie, that wouldn't be the case.


    Hmm, weird. I was under the impression that for most it's a matter of safety more than anything else.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #67 - February 01, 2013, 09:59 PM
    How is safety unrelated to societal pressures in that case?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #68 - February 01, 2013, 10:39 PM
    @asbie
    You really think peeps like me who live in the West (we're the majority on this forum) are in serious danger? Granted, some of us are, but I wouldn't say most of us.
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #69 - February 02, 2013, 12:05 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 01, 2013, 09:09 PM
    I'm not "scapegoating" anyone. You admit that societal pressure plays a part. The more common and accepted these procedures become, the more the societal pressure will increase. This is how cultural norms become established.

    The cosmetic surgery industry is all about making money by reinforcing existing insecurities, or by attempting to create new insecurities if there aren't any currently available ones to leverage. They will employ any tactics they regard as effective.

    I'm not that concerned about what one person chooses to do with her boobs. You can paint the things purple and stick feathers on them if you like.

    I would be concerned if someone else, who was self-conscious about the small size of her own boobs, took your example as more indication that she required surgery to be attractive enough. IMO, that would be unfortunate, and is something that should definitely not be given verbal (or printed) reinforcement by anyone.

    I can't control how others think and it's unfair to shift that burden onto anyone that has cosmetic surgery.
     I had surgery because it was for me, not for anyone else, people have free will you know.
    What you're failing to realize here is that beauty is not some new trend invented by plastic surgeons preying on women's insecurities to make more money because for centuries women have been altering themselves, for example during the victorian era women wore corsets to slim their figures.

     By your standards women should stop doing the following since they could influence other women's insecurities:
    Hair coloring, covering gray
    Manicures, nail color, tips.
    Waxing and plucking.
    Perms or hair straightening.
    Hair extensions
    Botox
    Caps, veneers, braces or teeth whitening.
    Dieting
    Makeup
    Tanning
    lipo, tummytucks, augments, rhinoplasty, implants etc.

    Women like to look attractive and that's not a new concept.


    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #70 - February 02, 2013, 12:18 AM
    Quote from: MB on February 02, 2013, 12:05 AM
    I can't control how others think and it's unfair to shift that burden onto anyone that has cosmetic surgery.

    I never suggested that you could control how others think. I've also said I'm not that concerned about your personal choice. You seem to be getting rather defensive about this, which is understandable, and letting that cloud your impression of my opinion.


    Quote
    I had surgery because it was for me, not for anyone else, people have free will you know.

    I know that. Show me where I denied it?


    Quote
    What you're failing to realize here is that beauty is not some new trend invented by plastic surgeons preying on women's insecurities to make more money because for centuries women have been altering themselves, for example during the victorian era women wore corsets to slim their figures.

    I'm not failing to realise anything of the sort. I'm quite well aware of the Victorian era. However, mainstream acceptance of cosmetic surgery, and the large industry behind it, is a new trend.


    Quote
    By your standards women should stop doing the following since they could influence other women's insecurities:
    Hair coloring, covering gray
    Manicures, nail color, tips.
    Waxing and plucking.
    Perms or hair straightening.
    Hair extensions

    None of those are surgical procedures.


    Quote
    Botox

    I do think people should skip Botox.


    Quote
    Caps, veneers, braces or teeth whitening.

    Most of those are perfectly valid dental procedures. The only one that is purely cosmetic is whitening, and it's a non-surgical procedure that carries no risk.


    Quote
    Dieting

    Often a bad idea. So yes, in a lot of cases it would be better if they didn't. I think we agree that the modelling industry is part of the problem here.


    Quote
    Makeup
    Tanning

    Actually, there is a (government sponsored) campaign against tanning over here at the moment. The aim is to reduce the (fairly high) incidence of melanoma. The slogan that goes with the advertising campaign is "There's nothing healthy about a tan".


    Quote
    lipo, tummytucks, augments, rhinoplasty, implants etc.

    Yup, I do think they should stop doing those things. I'm not trying to legislate against them though. It's just my opinion.


    Quote
    Women like to look attractive and that's not a new concept.

    Then why did you suggest that I was unaware of it?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #71 - February 02, 2013, 12:33 AM
    Might be best if we forget about boobs and get back to genital mutliation. Smiley
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #72 - February 02, 2013, 12:36 AM
    ^That has to be the first time that phrase has ever been uttered in the history of the earth. lol
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #73 - February 02, 2013, 12:36 AM
    ^ Cheesy
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #74 - February 02, 2013, 12:38 AM
    It seemed appropriate under the circumstances. grin12

    I'm not out to make MB feel like crap about her choice.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #75 - February 02, 2013, 01:04 AM
    This topic brings up a variety of emotions and issues for me, but I'll try to articulate my thoughts on labiaplasty vs things like nose jobs or boob jobs.

    When someone decides to get a nose job or a boob job, there are lots of things that factor into the decision. Sure there could be societal pressure to look a certain way, or maybe you simply objectively do not like the shape of your nose or the size of your boobs. Everybody has a nose, everybody has boobs, and they all come in every imaginable shape and size, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to make your body the way you want. People do it every day with their food choices, exercise choices, etc. You worked hard to eat a certain way and lose all that unwanted fat off your abdomen, and now your skin is loose and hanging? Get that tummy tuck and be happy with your body. There are always extremes when it comes to one's motivation, and they are not always healthy ones, but in the end it's a personal choice.

    What I find unique about labiaplasty is that unlike noses and boobs, which naturally appear in all shapes and sizes, nobody is born without a labia. Or if they are it would be considered a birth defect. Women are being made to feel ashamed simply for having it. Yeah, it's a personal choice and remove it if you want, but it stems from an insidious form of body shaming. Society will always come up with new and different standards for beauty, and you can conceivably follow right along with getting the right waist size and the right boob size to fit in. But what if society started to say boobs were hideous, and elective mastectomies became popular? There's a big difference between changing the size of your boobs to fit your or your partner's preference, and getting rid of them altogether.

    While the labia does not serve as vital a function as mammary glands, it's still your own body part and has wonderful nerve endings. Feeling so ashamed to possess that body part that you would remove it purely for cosmetic reasons is insane.

    The same goes for elective male circumcision, and I've heard from plenty of men both with and without foreskins that cannot fathom someone WANTING to get rid of, again, all those wonderful nerve endings.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #76 - February 02, 2013, 02:02 AM

    Quote
    OS
    I never suggested that you could control how others think. I've also said I'm not that concerned about your personal choice. You seem to be getting rather defensive about this, which is understandable, and letting that cloud your impression of my opinion.

    No but you inferred that my actions can affect how others view themselves here:
    Quote
    OS
    I would be concerned if someone else, who was self-conscious about the small size of her own boobs, took your example as more indication that she required surgery to be attractive enough. IMO, that would be unfortunate, and is something that should definitely not be given verbal (or printed) reinforcement by anyone.


    Quote
    OS
    I'm not failing to realise anything of the sort. I'm quite well aware of the Victorian era. However, mainstream acceptance of cosmetic surgery, and the large industry behind it, is a new trend.

    Breast implants date back to 1895.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_implant

    Quote
    MB
    By your standards women should stop doing the following since they could influence other women's insecurities:
    Hair coloring, covering gray
    Manicures, nail color, tips.
    Waxing and plucking.
    Perms or hair straightening.
    Hair extensions

    OS
    None of those are surgical procedures.

    I know that they are not surgical procedures but I used this to refute your claim that getting breast implants could negatively influence how another woman sees herself.
    Should we then stop all forms of beautification for the sake of others feelings?
    That's my point.

    Quote
    OS
    Botox
    I do think people should skip Botox.

    Why?

    Quote
    Caps, veneers, braces or teeth whitening.

    Most of those are perfectly valid dental procedures. The only one that is purely cosmetic is whitening, and it's a non-surgical procedure that carries no risk.

    They are still procedures to improves one's looks.

    Quote
    Dieting

    Often a bad idea. So yes, in a lot of cases it would be better if they didn't. I think we agree that the modelling industry is part of the problem here.

    Agreed

    Quote
    Makeup
    Tanning

    Actually, there is a (government sponsored) campaign against tanning over here at the moment. The aim is to reduce the (fairly high) incidence of melanoma. The slogan that goes with the advertising campaign is "There's nothing healthy about a tan".

    I have a healthy natural tan  Wink
    I agree with you that too much is unhealthy and can raise the risk of getting skin cancer.

    Quote
    lipo, tummytucks, augments, rhinoplasty, implants etc.

    Yup, I do think they should stop doing those things. I'm not trying to legislate against them though. It's just my opinion.


    Nothing wrong with any of the above, but you're entitled to your opinion, debating is good.

    Quote from: osmanthus on February 02, 2013, 12:38 AM
    It seemed appropriate under the circumstances. grin12

    I'm not out to make MB feel like crap about her choice.

    No one could ever make me feel like crap about my choice, I'm very happy with my choice.
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 02, 2013, 12:33 AM
    Might be best if we forget about boobs and get back to genital mutliation. Smiley

     Cheesy
    BOT
    I don't think it's like FGM at all because the women are choosing to go under the knife as adults. I personally would never consider having a procedure like this, but I refuse to judge another person for doing so.

    No hard feelings OS.

    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #77 - February 02, 2013, 02:29 AM
    Quote from: MB on February 02, 2013, 02:02 AM
    No but you inferred that my actions can affect how others view themselves here:

    Sure, but that's not the same as control, which was the word you used.


    Quote
    Breast implants date back to 1895.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_implant

    Mainstream promotion of them does not, which I believe was the point.


    Quote
    I know that they are not surgical procedures but I used this to refute your claim that getting breast implants could negatively influence how another woman sees herself.

    You'll have to explain the refutation there.


    Quote
    Should we then stop all forms of beautification for the sake of others feelings?
    That's my point.
    Why?

    No, but IMO once you start getting into the realm of surgery you're taking things to another level. Feel free to disagree.


    Quote
    They are still procedures to improves one's looks.

    Not all of them. Some of them can be dental repairs.


    Quote
    I have a healthy natural tan  Wink

    Goody for you. Some people still get melanoma in an attempt to pursue a tan. It's not all about you. The campaign is aimed at saving lives.


    Quote
    No one could ever make me feel like crap about my choice, I'm very happy with my choice. Cheesy

    Good.


    Quote
    I don't think it's like FGM at all because the women are choosing to go under the knife as adults. I personally would never consider having a procedure like this, but I refuse to judge another person for doing so.

    No hard feelings OS.

    It is exactly like FGM, because it is FGM. The difference, and it is an important one, is the consent of the adult who is going to have the procedure.

    Personally, I would judge them. I'd think they were bloody daft. If they asked, I'd probably say so. It's their choice, though.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #78 - February 02, 2013, 02:41 AM
    To answer the question in the title - I don't think it is much.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #79 - February 02, 2013, 03:43 AM
    Quote
    I know that they are not surgical procedures but I used this to refute your claim that getting breast implants could negatively influence how another woman sees herself.

    You'll have to explain the refutation there.

    It was part of my list of physical enhancements that women commonly use, I used them to counter your statement  in which you claimed, that my having implants would cause women to self reflect negatively on their breast size compared to me.

    Why not compare hair, makeup, weight or teeth instead, maybe my hair is better, does that mean that other women should go out and copy my hairstyle because their hair does not measure up?

    Quote
    Should we then stop all forms of beautification for the sake of others feelings?
    That's my point.
    Why?

    No, but IMO once you start getting into the realm of surgery you're taking things to another level. Feel free to disagree.

    I don't actually, surgery is taking it to another level but it's still being done for the same reasons that we chemically treat our hair or wear makeup etc..

    Quote
    I don't think it's like FGM at all because the women are choosing to go under the knife as adults. I personally would never consider having a procedure like this, but I refuse to judge another person for doing so.

    No hard feelings OS.

    It is exactly like FGM, because it is FGM. The difference, and it is an important one, is the consent of the adult who is going to have the procedure.

    Personally, I would judge them. I'd think they were bloody daft. If they asked, I'd probably say so. It's their choice, though.


    Labialplasty is only supposed to reduce the size of the labia majora or minora, it is not intended to destroy the clitoris or prevent a woman from reaching orgasm like FGM so that she will not be unfaithful to her husband.
    Neither one is good but one is worse than the other because the woman is making the choice for herself as an adult and the surgery is preformed under sterile conditions.


    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #80 - February 02, 2013, 03:45 AM
    Yebbut there are different forms of FGM.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #81 - February 02, 2013, 06:23 AM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on February 01, 2013, 10:39 PM
    @asbie
    You really think peeps like me who live in the West (we're the majority on this forum) are in serious danger? Granted, some of us are, but I wouldn't say most of us.


    That's not something can be accurately quantified until you come out. For most who have any doubt, it makes a lot of sense to stay in the closet, even if the perceived risk to personal safety is very small.

    Also, I think the risk is greater in certain countries like the UK or maybe certain areas in Canada than in the US, because of how well entrenched certain "Islamic values" and the taboos that go along with them have been established in communities. Regardless, I do think it's a very significant factor in western ex-muslims staying in the closet. After all, you do hear about things like honor killings and extreme domestic violence among Muslims in the news, even in the West. Certainly doesn't inspire confidence.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #82 - February 02, 2013, 06:25 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 01, 2013, 09:59 PM
    How is safety unrelated to societal pressures in that case?


    They might be related, certainly. But I was referring to societal pressure independent of threats to physical safety. The former can be ignored, the latter only at one's peril.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #83 - February 02, 2013, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: asbie on February 02, 2013, 06:23 AM
    That's not something can be accurately quantified until you come out. For most who have any doubt, it makes a lot of sense to stay in the closet, even if the perceived risk to personal safety is very small.

    Also, I think the risk is greater in certain countries like the UK or maybe certain areas in Canada than in the US, because of how well entrenched certain "Islamic values" and the taboos that go along with them have been established in communities. Regardless, I do think it's a very significant factor in western ex-muslims staying in the closet. After all, you do hear about things like honor killings and extreme domestic violence among Muslims in the news, even in the West. Certainly doesn't inspire confidence.


    You're probably right to a degree but I don't think there's been an honour killing in Australia (someone clue me in if there has been); something like that would've received a great deal of media attention and I would've heard about it. I guess the threat/risk is probably higher if you live in somewhere like the UK where there are rabid Muslim communities, but I still think that remaining in the closet is more often a matter of social pressure and fear of being ostracised than a matter of personal safety in the West. 
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #84 - February 02, 2013, 05:18 PM
    I agree ^^

    Because there is always a way out in the West, always.  It's just whether or not someone is prepared to take it, and deal with being ostracised.

    A lot of honour killings have been because girls have gone back AFTER taking the way out, giving in to emotional blackmail and wanting so badly for their parents to accept them the way they are.

    If you can handle being shunned, then you could break free much easier in the uk than in any muslim country.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #85 - February 02, 2013, 07:54 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on February 02, 2013, 03:18 PM
    You're probably right to a degree but I don't think there's been an honour killing in Australia (someone clue me in if there has been); something like that would've received a great deal of media attention and I would've heard about it. I guess the threat/risk is probably higher if you live in somewhere like the UK where there are rabid Muslim communities, but I still think that remaining in the closet is more often a matter of social pressure and fear of being ostracised than a matter of personal safety in the West. 


    Certainly though, as os pointed out, these factors overlap.

    Any doubts I would've had about my safety were not due to my own parents, thankfully. It was all due to the crazies that are a part of their social circle, whom I had no idea of what extent they'd want to follow the teachings of their religion once they found out about me. Unfortunately, regardless of how liberal of a muslim family you come from, it's really hard to not be in some way connected with people like that.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #86 - February 02, 2013, 09:05 PM
    ^I have exactly zero people who would be a threat to my safety. Not my parents, not family friends, nobody. I don't think my parents' community is into killing and physically attacking people (especially non-immediate family members) for religious failings or apostasy. 

    I'm actually quite surprised that you have distant relatives that were a threat to your safety; those are some crazy arse relations you have there. 
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #87 - February 02, 2013, 10:20 PM
    Well actually there is one uncle that I;m 100% sure would want to kill me. Good thing he's all the way in Pakistan...

    My parents I'm sure wouldn't try to kill me but if any of my hardcore relatives or any other muslim even tried

    let's just say they'd be escorted out of my sight by a pair of paramedics...



    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #88 - February 02, 2013, 11:42 PM
    You're missing my point. Sure, your relatives in dar-al-Islam might try to kill you but I doubt too many people who live in the West would be willing to risk going to jail and dealing with the severe consequences that murder entails in a Western country where "but she was a slut!" or "but he left Islam!" aren't valid excuses for murdering your child. 

    Even if your family is a threat to your safety, Canada is a big arse country, you can move to another corner of the country and change your identity and never be bothered by anyone again. 
  • How is "The Barbie" different from circumcision?
     Reply #89 - February 03, 2013, 02:33 AM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on February 02, 2013, 11:42 PM
    You're missing my point. Sure, your relatives in dar-al-Islam might try to kill you but I doubt too many people who live in the West would be willing to risk going to jail and dealing with the severe consequences that murder entails in a Western country where "but she was a slut!" or "but he left Islam!" aren't valid excuses for murdering your child. 



    1. You don't need too many people, one is often enough. 2. Honour killings do happen in the West. 3. So, asbie is right.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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