Question about the "linguistic miracle", Need some help here

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- ibn Bilal
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Question about the "linguistic miracle", Need some help here
Reply #30 - February 11, 2013, 09:39 PM

Sorry I originally had the key parts in bold when I wrote this up in word, but the bold did not paste over.
- monstart
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Question about the "linguistic miracle", Need some help here
Reply #31 - February 12, 2013, 02:58 PM

i appreciate the detailed response you have given me thank you. I don't know how it will be recieved by them however.
- serpentofeden
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Question about the "linguistic miracle", Need some help here
Reply #32 - April 04, 2013, 03:56 PM

do any academic linguists/scholars endorse this quran linguistic miracle hogwash ?

pinker, chomsky ?
- kutta
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Reply #33 - April 04, 2013, 04:42 PM

If the linguistic miracle is not legit, shouldn't it be easy for anyone to create a 5-line arabic poem that doesn't correspond to any of the 16 poetry styles or rhymed prose or "normal language"?

Technically, can't I just pick a surah and replace some words Or even create my own piece? Does anyone know?
- RecRoom
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Question about the "linguistic miracle", Need some help here
Reply #34 - April 04, 2013, 05:55 PM

@kutta

Here's my current take on this matter.

From what I've gathered the poetry styles are erroneous to this discussion as they require consistency in meter (which the quran obviously doesn't have). All the research I've done points to the quran being saj. The reasons why musilms won't label it as such seem to be polemical.

Saj or rhymed prose is exactly what I'd expect from the character of Mohammad. He wouldn't be informed or perhaps care for the strict structure of poetry and he wouldn't want the dry delivery of normally every day prose. The result is a combination of aspects from the two, a hodgepodge if you will. And creating such a work is as trivially easy as it sounds.

The first thing I require of a Muslim is them defining what is meant by "literary form". They need a strict definition and they need it applied to the quran before they can claim anything. This is the step that apologists seem to be avoiding the most. They outright skip it and somehow smuggle it past enemy lines in debate and articles.

My take is that if they define a literary form in accordance with saj, poetry, whatever, they'll end up high and dry with a book filled with no consistency. And the reason why this is confusing for many people is because individual verses and 'paragraphs' (even whole chapters) are easy to break down in terms of structure, rhyme pattern, etc. and easy to replicate but that doesn't seem to convince the apologist now does it? As you noted, one can easily replace a word and form a series of 3 verses with the same rhyme and weight, basically this would be 'a surah like it'. The reason this is not effective in discussion is because the apologist is referring to the quran as a whole, whose literary form is strategically left undefined.

So any real attempt to meet this particular challenge is lost regardless because once again apologists are not actually defining the quran's literary form. And as before, they are the judge, jury and executioner on every aspect with no manga carta to hold them accountable.
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Question about the "linguistic miracle", Need some help here
Reply #35 - April 04, 2013, 06:07 PM

In addition to my last post for clarification-

In the recent islam debate by iera, Krauss I think at one point brought up something about Shakespeare when the whole 'literary form' thing was being talked about. Hammy brought up something about Iambic pentameter and how this was easily replicable.

To which I question, has the quran's style been anywhere near as defined as Iambic pentameter? Or that of strict poetry structures? Or that of a Haiku? The answer, FUCK NO! And until then, (which I think would result in a disaster form the apologist), there is no challenge as far as I'm concerned.
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Reply #36 - April 04, 2013, 06:08 PM

double post =)
- kutta
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Reply #37 - April 04, 2013, 06:49 PM

Thank you for your detailed reply. I honestly really appreciate it. I understand this better now.
- dr_sloth
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Reply #38 - April 04, 2013, 07:47 PM

Quote from: RecRoom on April 04, 2013, 06:07 PM
In addition to my last post for clarification-

In the recent islam debate by iera, Krauss I think at one point brought up something about Shakespeare when the whole 'literary form' thing was being talked about. Hammy brought up something about Iambic pentameter and how this was easily replicable.

the iambic penatameter is a single feature that shakespeare sometimes used. It would be no different from saying the quran can be imitated because it uses adjectives. it really annoys me how dumb he is

Quote
The first thing I require of a Muslim is them defining what is meant by "literary form".

actually this argument falls apart earlier than that. it falls apart on the definition of miracle.
Hamza has stolen Williaml Lane craig's definition of miracle:

"an event outside the productive capacity of nature."

He lied in the debate claiming that this definition came from "profound islamic theologians and thinkers". I have asked him twice to name one of these profound islamic thinkers without response.
It is a stupid definition that is basically meaningless, and doesnt solve any of the problems it is designed to, and that is in the best case scenario in which Hamza actually understands this meaningless definition he stole. He does not.
He has conflated two different definitions of the word 'nature'. Confusing 'nature' itself (the laws of nature), with 'the essential characteristics of a thing'.

He is saying that every innovation is a miracle. 'The nature' of vacuum cleaners was that they used bags, up until 1993 when James Dyson (pbuh) launched the miraculous Dyson bagless vacuum cleaner.
- yeezevee
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Reply #39 - April 04, 2013, 08:11 PM

Quran "linguistic miracle" , .....

what miracle? . If writing/plagiarizing/collating few Arabic words in to a book is a miracle, then everything is a miracle..

Dog woofing, cats meowing, cow mowing, , Birds chirping, Lambs baaing, Lions growling, Crickets creaking, ass farting ... all are miracles.. Every sound that comes out of biological species is a miracle ,,

Only fools from religions and fools like Hamza Tortillas, and NoMan Khan likes consider a book as miracle.. That too a book of 7th century silly stories..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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