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 Topic: Gay Marriage Bill Passes

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  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #60 - February 13, 2013, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 13, 2013, 12:20 AM
    How does the State penalise you if you commit adultery?  (Assuming we're talking about Britain here and not Saudi Arabia).


    It can enforce monetary penalties, and legal consequences. Yes it's definitely different depending on where you are.

    The problem is why does the state mandate monogamy. Even saying "well, marry someone who's not monogamous and be nonmonogamous together" is problematic. Why are non monogamous folk second class? If you have 2 loving partners (informed, consenting adults) why not recognize all as partners if we're going to recognize 2 of cross or same gender?

    Also, the stigma attached to divorce is still there, especially on women, but also on men, even in liberal democracies.

    Not to mention the costs. It actually costs more to pay the state to grant you a divorce than it does to pay the state to grant you a marriage cert, in most places.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #61 - February 13, 2013, 12:29 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 13, 2013, 12:26 AM
    Show me one sane person who has claimed that SSM = total equality in all fields.


    Are you strawmaning me? Grin Where did I say that?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #62 - February 13, 2013, 12:30 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 13, 2013, 12:22 AM
    The romantic aspect of it is the sizzle it's sold with. Marriage is a lucrative industry. Divorce is even more so.

    This is a cynical and deflationary way of putting it, though. For many people the 'romantic sizzle' is exactly what they want to buy, and has profound value.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #63 - February 13, 2013, 12:31 AM
    Anyway, I will continue to be in my open, poly, NONmarried, long term, same sex partnership. And I thank my lucky stars, and my partner, that I can do so in a place where I don't have to ask the state's permission to be in this relationship.

    So yeah, equality, good.

    Doesn't mean I have to find the institution of marriage romantic. I don't and I won't.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #64 - February 13, 2013, 12:32 AM
    Well you were grumbling about "this is Sparta not equality!". I don't think anyone ever thought it was. So?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #65 - February 13, 2013, 12:33 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 13, 2013, 12:31 AM
    Anyway, I will continue to be in my open, poly, NONmarried, long term, same sex partnership. And I thank my lucky stars, and my partner, that I can do so in a place where I don't have to ask the state's permission to be in this relationship.

    So yeah, equality, good.

    Doesn't mean I have to find the institution of marriage romantic. I don't and I won't.

    You forgot this >  nyanya
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #66 - February 13, 2013, 12:33 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2013, 12:30 AM
    This is a cynical and deflationary way of putting it, though. For many people the 'romantic sizzle' is exactly what they want to buy, and has profound value.


    Yeah I'm cynical about marriage. I don't need to involve the state to be romantic with my partner(s).

    To each their own.

    Quote from: osmanthus on February 13, 2013, 12:32 AM
    Well you were grumbling about "this is Sparta not equality!". I don't think anyone ever thought it was. So?


    It's not equality, not for people like me. See my response to Cheetah above.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #67 - February 13, 2013, 12:33 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 13, 2013, 12:33 AM
    You forgot this >  nyanya


    Thanks for adding it for me.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #68 - February 13, 2013, 12:34 AM
    Marriage - or even living together without marriage - can produce things like joint bills, jointly bought property, pets, children even.  There has to be a legal structure that divvies all that up if the relationship falls apart.  Abolishing marriage won't abolish relationships, children, bills, pets, or relationship breakdowns.  So without marriage, all the consequences you attribute to marriage and divorce would simply apply to people living together who later decide to separate.  

    And none of that is the State punishing adultery.  Its your partner ending the relationship as a response to adultery, and the State sorting out the side effects of a partnership gone wrong.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #69 - February 13, 2013, 12:36 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 13, 2013, 12:33 AM
    It's not equality, not for people like me. See my response to Cheetah above.

    It's more equal than it was. Some people call this progress.

    Cheetah: stop making sense.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #70 - February 13, 2013, 12:36 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2013, 12:26 AM
    So does Sunday. But nobody has an existential crisis when the word is used in casual conversation.


    It's a bit patronising to say it's an existential crisis. I just choose to reject institutions founded on religion, because I have chosen to reject religion. If you look at the top of the page, the bit where it says 'freedom of consicence', well, that's an area of my life where I would choose to exercise that freedom of conscience if I could.

    Calling it an existential crisis, well, that says more about you than me Wink You could have just addressed the point I'd made in response to you instead of that!
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #71 - February 13, 2013, 12:37 AM
    True Conservatives would support gay marriage as they support marriage as an institution. More people married, the better.

    Good on David Cameron for seeing this through in face of opposition from his back benches.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #72 - February 13, 2013, 12:38 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 13, 2013, 12:31 AM
    Anyway, I will continue to be in my open, poly, NONmarried, long term, same sex partnership. And I thank my lucky stars, and my partner, that I can do so in a place where I don't have to ask the state's permission to be in this relationship.

    So yeah, equality, good.

    Doesn't mean I have to find the institution of marriage romantic. I don't and I won't.

    What you or I find romantic is entirely a matter of taste and personal expression. I don't think anyone was begrudging you not thinking it was romantic. What I take issue with is your portrayal of marriage, and by extension portrayal of people's marriages. You make it sound like some kind of government oppression where people are oblivious to some kind of terrible compromise they are making to their relationship. When in fact, it's just some people getting married n'stuff.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #73 - February 13, 2013, 12:39 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 13, 2013, 12:34 AM
    Marriage - or even living together without marriage - can produce things like joint bills, jointly bought property, pets, children even.  There has to be a legal structure that divvies all that up if the relationship falls apart.  Abolishing marriage won't abolish relationships, children, bills, pets, or relationship breakdowns.  So without marriage, all the consequences you attribute to marriage and divorce would simply apply to people living together who later decide to separate.  


    Well yeah all that is fine. Trust me, 10 years of "marriage" teaches you all you need to know about those Wink

    My issue in particular is, why only 1+1? Legal recognition of multi-partner relationships has to be seen as part of the quest of "equality". As well as the issue of civil partnerships/common law partnerships for all (which, I guess, heterosexuals don't have in UK).

    Quote from: Cheetah on February 13, 2013, 12:34 AM
    And none of that is the State punishing adultery.  Its your partner ending the relationship as a response to adultery, and the State sorting out the side effects of a partnership gone wrong.


    Well but that makes the point I'm making... marriage is a contract with the State, not just a romantic thing between lovers.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #74 - February 13, 2013, 12:41 AM
    Quote from: billy on February 13, 2013, 12:37 AM
    True Conservatives would support gay marriage as they support marriage as an institution. More people married, the better.


    Exactly. Marriage is ITSELF a conservative institution.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #75 - February 13, 2013, 12:41 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 13, 2013, 12:36 AM
    It's more equal than it was. Some people call this progress.


    Oh ok. So people like me should just shut up about our perspectives?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #76 - February 13, 2013, 12:42 AM
    Now who's strawmanning?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #77 - February 13, 2013, 12:42 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2013, 12:38 AM
    What you or I find romantic is entirely a matter of taste and personal expression. I don't think anyone was begrudging you not thinking it was romantic. What I take issue with is your portrayal of marriage, and by extension portrayal of people's marriages. You make it sound like some kind of government oppression where people are oblivious to some kind of terrible compromise they are making to their relationship. When in fact, it's just some people getting married n'stuff.


    Ok, well apologies for that. I actually really enjoy weddings. I have no intention to put down people's personal desire to have them or whatever kind of relationship they want.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #78 - February 13, 2013, 12:43 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 13, 2013, 12:42 AM
    Now who's strawmanning?


    So what are you saying then if not that?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #79 - February 13, 2013, 12:44 AM
    Quote from: Amsterdamned on February 13, 2013, 12:36 AM
    Calling it an existential crisis, well, that says more about you than me Wink You could have just addressed the point I'd made in response to you instead of that!

    I am responding to you point. I just think it's silly.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #80 - February 13, 2013, 12:44 AM
    I'm saying that it's more equal than it used to be.  Huh?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #81 - February 13, 2013, 12:45 AM
     popcorn
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #82 - February 13, 2013, 12:46 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 13, 2013, 12:44 AM
    I'm saying that it's more equal than it used to be.  Huh?


    So what is the disagreement about? I have said maybe half a dozen times, equality good, that it's a good thing.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #83 - February 13, 2013, 12:46 AM
    Quote
    My issue in particular is, why only 1+1? Legal recognition of multi-partner relationships has to be seen as part of the quest of "equality". As well as the issue of civil partnerships/common law partnerships for all (which, I guess, heterosexuals don't have in UK).


    I think we're going to disagree about polygamy, so I'll leave that aside because its really a whole other thread on its own.  I'll just say this - gay people pushed for marriage equality, and that's why progress is finally happening.  If other groups want the same, they have to do the same.  

    Quote
    Well but that makes the point I'm making... marriage is a contract with the State, not just a romantic thing between lovers.



    When you have a lovely romantic thing between two lovers which goes south, how does the fall out get decided fairly?  Does the bigger guy just beat the crap out of his woman and boot her out the door with the clothes on her back?  Does the woman manipulate the children into hating their father so she gets child custody?  

    I realise those are extreme scenarios, but they are the type of scenarios that an impartial judge is there to prevent.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #84 - February 13, 2013, 12:47 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2013, 12:44 AM
    I am responding to you point. I just think it's silly.


    What was silly, precisely?
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #85 - February 13, 2013, 12:49 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 13, 2013, 12:46 AM

    When you have a lovely romantic thing between two lovers which goes south, how does the fall out get decided fairly?  Does the bigger guy just beat the crap out of his woman and boot her out the door with the clothes on her back?  Does the woman manipulate the children into hating their father so she gets child custody?  

    I realise those are extreme scenarios, but they are the type of scenarios that an impartial judge is there to prevent.




    Marriage has nothing to do those scenarios, they happen all the time in relationships, married/partnershipped, or not.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #86 - February 13, 2013, 12:50 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 13, 2013, 12:46 AM
    So what is the disagreement about? I have said maybe half a dozen times, equality good, that it's a good thing.

    Well that must have gotten lost in the signal to noise ratio when you were being apoplectic about the state controlling people's genitals or whatever (even though, in liberal democracies, it doesn't). Seriously, you were going off about marriage so much that I just about fell off the chair laughing when you turned around and said you like weddings.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #87 - February 13, 2013, 12:51 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 13, 2013, 12:46 AM
    I think we're going to disagree about polygamy, so I'll leave that aside because its really a whole other thread on its own.  I'll just say this - gay people pushed for marriage equality, and that's why progress is finally happening.  If other groups want the same, they have to do the same.  


    I'm not talking about polygamy of the Mormon/Muslim/Creepy Cult kind. Lots of creepy religious freaks are monogamous too. I'm talking about polyamory for those who are informed, consenting adults. Why are they relegated to being without these rights?

    Not all gay people pushed for marriage. Over the years, I've known lots who really really couldn't care either way.

    The ones who pushed for marriage are the more conservative gay people, generally.

    But I'll say it again: EQUALITY IS GOOD. I'm not against that. So let's argue about why the state needs to be involved in ANYONE's marriage.

    Quote from: Cheetah on February 13, 2013, 12:46 AM
    When you have a lovely romantic thing between two lovers which goes south, how does the fall out get decided fairly?  Does the bigger guy just beat the crap out of his woman and boot her out the door with the clothes on her back?  Does the woman manipulate the children into hating their father so she gets child custody?  

    I realise those are extreme scenarios, but they are the type of scenarios that an impartial judge is there to prevent.


    Well you're answering your own question there. Extreme situations. Anyway, I don't mind having the state as an option, like I said above, the way religion is now. For those who want to have a contract with the state (like people do with their churches, etc.) should have that option IMO.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #88 - February 13, 2013, 12:53 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 13, 2013, 12:50 AM
    Well that must have gotten lost in the signal to noise ratio when you were being apoplectic about the state controlling people's genitals or whatever (even though, in liberal democracies, it doesn't).


    Well, yeah it kinda does. I'm not going to teach my Sexuality and Law course here. But people are free to look up their local and state family laws to see what I mean.

    Quote from: osmanthus on February 13, 2013, 12:50 AM
    Seriously, you were going off about marriage so much that I just about fell off the chair laughing when you turned around and said you like weddings.


    Well good, maybe I'm more complex than you gave me credit for before, then.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #89 - February 13, 2013, 12:56 AM
    Quote from: Amsterdamned on February 13, 2013, 12:47 AM
    What was silly, precisely?

    Well, in the context of gays celebrating the first step to marriage equality, you decide inequality remains because you cannot enter into their old consolation prize marriage-lite, the civil partnership. And what's stopping you entering into civil marriage, which is almost a perfect symmetry of civil partnership from your position, is a word in its name.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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