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- mina
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OP - February 17, 2013, 10:57 AM

Hello

I just joined after becoming aware of you on twitter and gaining a couple of CEMB followers.

I'm not sure I have anything valuable or new to add here. All I know is I am SO lost.

I THINK I lost my faith (not sure I ever had it to begin with). Still I somehow find it easier to identify myself as a Muslim and thought of letting that go completely terrifies me.

I don't know what I think, so many questions pulling me both ways. I don't understand, how, when I have been brought up in a devout indian Muslim household and incredibly conservative family and community that this has happened to me. The guilt is unbearable.

I can't remember the last time I sincerely prayed salah. All through my childhood and teens I used to fake all my prayers, my fasts during ramadhan. I thought I was evil for so long. I remember being about six, my idea of God was an old wizened woman in a red cloak. I made the mistake of sharing this at madrasah and got walloped.

I don't know why I am giving this background, I suppose to make you see that this is not new, I have lived my life thinking how wrong I am but try as I might it never worked. I could never buy in to it all. I could certainly fake it for my family growing up, pretending to pray, wearing hijab and then removing it at school. I used to be the best pupil at Madrasah, except when it came to memorising the Quran. There was a mental block there from the age of around 10. I could never retain anything I learnt by heart. Yet another sign my heart was closed and I was evil??

I fought tooth and nail to go to university. My parents were against it. I broke my parents hearts and went anyway, funding myself through jobs. I moved away and lived a godless immoral life, happy and secure with my friends. Still the guilt would come in the night. When I came home in holidays, it was easy to slip back in to my home life and appearances.

Uni flew by and I came back home. I couldn't hack it and I broke my parents heart again and announced I was moving out in to a new city. My dad told me that if I left there would be no way back. I did it anyway, and persevered with my family, turning up every other weekend, showing them I was trying to leave them and I still loved them, just I couldn't live that life. Still I could not break ties with the religion and whilst by myself I lived the life I wanted, when I went home I was a Muslim again.

Then four years on I met a wonderful man I can't live without. Who was not Muslim. I told him that it would be difficult with my family and I couldnt promise him my I've due to my parents never being able to accept it.

Love doesn't work like that, and another four years on, I cannot be without him. I told him I would telly my parents so we could get married. To soften the blow he would be happy to convert. And he did.

We live as we like, do what we want and religion never comes in to our life or decisions, I broke the news to my parents about him and as predicted there as shock, outrage, hurt, threats etc. I made it clear there was no alternative and e would be the man I marry regardless.

They have numbed themselves to that fact.

But the pain I have caused crippled my mum and dad. threw my mum on a verge of a breakdown. I cannot contemplate telling them I am lost to Islam.

In a way I cannot contemplate even admitting it to myself. Or my fiancé who did this for me. I have never said any of this out loud. My fiancé knows I don't practice but he thinks I have some faith. It's how I explained my whole life to myself and others. That I believe in God and the Quran and Islam but do not think for one second Allah is petty enough to throw me in hell for not praying, fasting, covering my hair, eating non halal food, drinking, dancing, watching tv, having sex AS long as I am a good person. But then being terrified that because I do all these thing I am not a good person, I am corrupt etc.

I live forever in the shadow that all those living islamically are good and I am wrong.
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Reply #1 - February 17, 2013, 01:02 PM

looking for a loving god and finding Allah can be pretty disappointing..
i'm glad you made your way here
hi and welcome..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Reply #2 - February 17, 2013, 01:10 PM

Quote from: mina on February 17, 2013, 10:57 AM
I'm not sure I have anything valuable or new to add here.

You simply being here is valuable to us.

This forum exists so you can have a space to express yourself amongst those who understand where you are coming from.

People here will understand and empathise with what you are feeling and experiencing now.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- allat
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Reply #3 - February 17, 2013, 01:51 PM

Welcome mina. Don't worry we know here what it's like to go through these conflicting feelings. I have a similar background/back story too. Glad you've found us here.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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Reply #4 - February 17, 2013, 02:00 PM

I'm going to say something, Mina and I want you to read my words carefully and take them to heart::

You are not bad or evil. You are a normal human being. You are not going to Hell. Hell doesn't exist.

Oh and welcome
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Reply #5 - February 17, 2013, 02:26 PM

Quote from: mina on February 17, 2013, 10:57 AM
In a way I cannot contemplate even admitting it to myself. Or my fiancé who did this for me. I have never said any of this out loud. My fiancé knows I don't practice but he thinks I have some faith. It's how I explained my whole life to myself and others. That I believe in God and the Quran and Islam but do not think for one second Allah is petty enough to throw me in hell for not praying, fasting, covering my hair, eating non halal food, drinking, dancing, watching tv, having sex AS long as I am a good person. But then being terrified that because I do all these thing I am not a good person, I am corrupt etc.

I'm sorry to read your story, I can't imagine how painful it must be to have your beliefs (or lack of belief) contribute to serious relationship problems with your family.

Perhaps this dude's advise might help with your guilt;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1yl7gz0AO4

(might want to replace in search of the big bang, with big bang by Simon Singh. I have both and it's better written IMO.)

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
- Minimow
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Reply #6 - February 17, 2013, 02:49 PM

You ought to be certain about one thing: That you've done the right thing by moving out, by educating yourself, by getting engaged with someone you love and by choosing to be economically self-sufficient. Which is to say that the feud is due to your family's conservative worldview and not one you could blame yourself for.

Because, your alternative would've been to stay home and be dependent on your family, miss out on university and it would not have been unlikely that you would be set up for an arranged marriage either (I don't know your parents, so this might not be true). Either way you would live your life dependent on a male figure, whether it be your father or your Islamic husband. You've done the right thing here!

As to the religion, I think Pascal was thinking of you (and myself and many others in this forum) when he said that there are people who "are so made, that they cannot believe". I used to fake prayers, fasting etc too at a very early age. I had a hard time memorizing the Quran, because I found it essentially meaningless to memorize by heart, words I could not understand, nor could relate to when translated.

Btw, welcome! And for the first time, I deliver a parrot

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Reply #7 - February 17, 2013, 03:23 PM

Welcome Mina,

Yours is a truly touching story. Many of us here know first hand the heartache that can come from dealing with family members who are still infected by the crippling virus of religion. I must tell you, however, that you have been fortunate enough to live out a life that has been systematically and repeatedly denied to billions of Muslim women across the Islamic world. I personally applaud and congratulate you for that. Your freedom of mind and spirit is a gift that has been stolen away from too many a Muslim woman. You should be proud.

And yet, the nature of religion is such that it plays upon our guilt and our fears. Since it can not offer us anything to better our lives, it thrives upon telling us that we are not good enough without it, that we are evil with out it, and that we need it to be complete. Well my dear, while that can be a tough message to have driven into you from the day you learned the meaning of words, be assured: You are complete. You are exactly who you should be. Islam is the problem. Allah is not real, and neither is his absurd torture camp called hell.

I know that the fear of God and hell can be difficult shackles to shake free from, but I would recommend reading into why the idea of a thuggish, tyrannical, narcissistic, misogynistic, vain, petty, and sadistic God like Allah is logically absurd. Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion is a great start. Also, laughing about the ridiculousness of ideas like eternal hell and a Day of Judgement in which an "all merciful" god burns 80% of the human race for making a simple mistake can be very therapeutic. (I'll post a link of two videos that really helped me from our own living legend, Hassan.)

And lastly, I think you'll find it great to have a place like this to come and just shoot the breeze, laugh, bond, debate, be inspired, and be silly with fellow ex-Muslims who also realized that despite what everyone was saying, the emperor really was not wearing any clothes. I personally welcome you to the forum and hope you find it as fun and useful as we all have. Dive on in, the water here is fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWZpXtDD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEw2
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Reply #8 - February 17, 2013, 03:56 PM

I can't see the vids for some reason HM - could be my iPad playing up. Things have never been quite the same since my daughter spilt tea on my laptop lol
- ibn Bilal
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Reply #9 - February 17, 2013, 04:06 PM

Hmm... How about now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWZpXtDD-9s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEw2RlLvBw4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Reply #10 - February 17, 2013, 04:10 PM

Yep, see them - I knew it'd be those too lol
- ibn Bilal
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Reply #11 - February 17, 2013, 04:12 PM

Brilliant. I loved those when I first came across them.
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Reply #12 - February 17, 2013, 04:28 PM

Hell is such an unbelievably ridiculous and laughable concept and its not only a tragedy that we are still teaching this to children but it is abuse of a most evil type. Because once this horrible concept is absorbed it paralyses the mind with fear and makes seeing the world in a normal and rational way impossible.

Just this morning I was speaking to someone who just walked away when I tried pointing out how insanely absurd the concept of hell is. She couldn't face the simple rational truth and had to hide in case Islam came crashing down on top of her.

Sad. Really sad.
- mina
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Reply #13 - February 17, 2013, 04:41 PM

Goodness me- what a warm understanding welcome! Hassan, Billy, Allat Nesrin thank you!

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to me.

Minimow- yes I think I just was not made to believe. I certainly tried but it just made thingsworse. I read about how religion lifts people out of depression and gives them meaning. In my case it stifled me and nearly crushed me. I was told to fight my nufs ( still don't really understand ths concept) and that I had let it get too strong each time I did yet something else no one agreed with.

My earliest memories are to do with religious teaching. As a child I spent ages trying to get my head round the logistical and practical challenge of Allah conducting the day of quiyamat. every single human being that ever lived??? All in one place? A mile from the sun?? My body parts would talk? Would we all wait in a line? When asked what I would do on judgment day I said I would hide, there would be so many people no one would miss me if my parents loved me enough not to tell.....

Happy Murtad, yes I am immensely lucky, it's true. As strict and devout as my parents are, their love for me is immense and so perhaps I know I can push them. However this puts me in a position akin to a bully and them a kind of unmoving punchbag. They will never accept me as I am, they'll drive themselves mad with grief and prayer over the tiniest little unislamic thing i do but they just won't let me be and i dont think i can ever walk away from them, despite the the desperate threats i dont think they can either. Yes it makes me really lucky to have parents that love me this much despite the hurt i cause but i hate to see them in pain. Yet iI carry on regardless flouting all they ask of me.. Everything short of finally admitting I don't have faith.

What you and many regard as strength I have always been made to believe is selfishness. My heart breaks for my cousins who i see now going through troubled and confused teenage years. I want to reach out to them. The girls are warned not to follow my example, my extended family see me as pollution. Worse than that they blame my parents for how I am and lay on the the shame for them.

Re arranged marriages- When I came back from university they did indeed introduce me to a good Muslim boy. Stupidly I couldn't think of a reason to say no- he would be a good influence on me. I got engaged and then three weeks in I panicked. The most wicked thing I did to call it off was tell my parents he was not a virgin (the poor boy had been to university too and lived his life and romantically wanted to confide everything to me- as a female, i knew better than to do the same so he thought i was some innocent flower) I knew islamically no one could argue with the reason i gave.

So it's important for you to all know I am not a pure good soul struggling to be myself- I too have done many a dubious thing and been calculated and stupid and hurt people in unforgivable ways by not being true and manipulative. I have told so many lies to my family I have lost track. They know so little of who and what I really am as I have become so good at deception.

I think the final straw was when my brother finally met my fiancé. And spent the whole time telling him I was bad, irreligious, selfish and as a new Muslim I was the wrong girl to make a life with. He needed somebody better, stronger and good. My fiancé was taken aback and told him religion from what he understood was about forgiveness and that there wasnt any from him or my famiy twards me. For my part I confronted my family and told them all that all my life I have never been good enough. And now I have someone who loves me exactly as I am (my fiancé is the only one who knows all my bad bits, all the lies and deception, and double life I lived) yet doesnt preach to me and doesnt want to change me, accepts me entirely and all they could do was try to turn him against me.

Strangestdude/happy murtad yes will watch the you tube video-

And so now here I am. I need to decide what to do. Do I own up to my fiancé and tell him despite him converting for me that it means nothing to me. Do I strike the final blow to my parents or do I continue as I am, keeping up appearances of some Muslim faith- just not a very practicing one. Everything is scary.
- mina
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Reply #14 - February 17, 2013, 04:52 PM

Hahaha

Love it.

I thought those videos were going to be heavy atheist videos critically reducing the concept of religion/Islam

Ths is even more effective. And some welcome light relief. Thank you!
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Reply #15 - February 17, 2013, 04:57 PM

Quote
Do I own up to my fiancé and tell him despite him converting for me that it means nothing to me.

He sounds like a great guy who loves you very much and understands the contortions you have had to go through to live a life with your own identity and belief. If this is the option, I'm sure it won't matter to him at all.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- cosmicdancer
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Reply #16 - February 17, 2013, 04:59 PM

You must be open and frank with your fiancé in my opinion.

And stop thinking you are bad. We all do stupid shit. Most of it is because stupid shit was done to us.

This is one of my favourite movie scenes from goodwill hunting where robin Williams tells matt damon that the child abuse he suffered was not his fault. Still brings me to tears.

http://youtu.be/GtkST5-ZFHw
- Pepe
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Reply #17 - February 17, 2013, 05:11 PM

Welcome Mina

I say own up to your fiance and tell him honestly what you are feeling. Im sure he will understand. If he converted just to marry you he will understand. That's not really a conversion anyway if he doesn't practice its just pretending to stick another label on oneself.

As for the things you have done that you are not proud of well its never too late to be better as a human being. When we live a lie because of the intolerance of our family and community we end up living double lives to some extent. Prove to yourself that you can be a better person without Islam than with it. Its not that hard really because Islam doesn't own goodness.

What Islam and some other religions and cults are very good at is filling people with guilt and fear to keep them from straying from it. First it will use guilt and tell you things like Shaitan is whispering into your heart, you must control your nafs because it is fighting against being obedient to God, you must trust in Allah and His Messenger if you are to be a good Muslim etc etc. When that doesn't work then it threatens you with hellfire and punishment in this life like being ostracized by the community and family or jail and death in countries that have Sharia as law. How truly weak and fragile religion's arguments must be to use these tactics to keep us in line.

If family try and use emotional blackmail to keep you in line that is their doing and their problem. You might love your parents but do they love you less than their religion and their community? If they place religion and community above you then you are not responsible for what they emotionally bring upon themselves.Let the blame for their own grief lay with them and don't take it as a burden upon yourself.

-------------------
Believe in yourself
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Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
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There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
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Reply #18 - February 17, 2013, 06:33 PM

Welcome to the forum Mina.

Even male Muslims are at a disadvantage when it comes to finding love and trying to please family. Islam really messes things up in that regard. I couldn't fathom how to get involved with someone from an arranged marriage, I didn't relate to their culture or even know them well enough. And I couldn't enter into a long term relationship with someone outside of the religion/culture because I always had in the back of my mind what my family would think.

I think you are ultimately lucky how things have panned out for you now.
I should also count myself lucky that I'm not stuck in a loveless arranged marriage like many others I see.
But I have to now resign myself to the very real possibility that I will never find anyone.
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Reply #19 - February 17, 2013, 07:22 PM

That is the beautiful thing about us, Mina. We are human beings. We fuck up sometimes, we get shit right sometimes, we make mistakes, and we learn and grow. We can choose to follow or own inert morality and do what we conclude is right, without the threat of some psychotic sky God whose hell bent on torturing us. Follow your own intuition. Be inspired by those you admire. Find your own path. And don't be upset when you find out you're not perfect. None of us are. That's what makes life worth living.
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Reply #20 - February 17, 2013, 07:39 PM

Hello Mina, I totally understand your situation, and I can completely relate. Your presence is valuable enough here, and you need to realize that you are an AVERAGE human being who uses the organ that she was provided with : her brain. I really, really, recommend you to watch this video. It is for your own benefit, please (Y)

You will realize the true importance of these videos. Sometimes, when you actually hear another real-life voice communicating your exact thoughts, you understand that you are not alone, and there are people with you who have shared, share, or will share the same experiences as you. Good luck to you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra9QQ58b7JY
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Reply #21 - February 17, 2013, 08:13 PM

Welcome Mina

Don't worry too much and relax. Islam really emphasises our mistakes and makes us feel worse than we should. The fear of hell is normal, we will all at one stage have to overcome this irrational fear, some will take longer than others so do not feel disheartened if it does not disappear early on. In time you will find it a lot more confortable to hold to the notion that hell does not exist.

I would recommend being honest with your fiance, considering you may want to spend the rest of your life with him, its best to be truthful from the start. I think since he is a new convert it would not be that difficult for him to understand your new position.

Bieng truthful with your parents depends on what your parents are like and what they are willing to sacrifice for the true you. When it comes to your family, remember it is not your fault if their reaction to the news is sour. They may try to blame you for grievances they suffer from you coming out. This is not to scare you but prepare for the worst possible reaction, you don't know how people will react to knowing you think their whole life based on Islam is a sham.

Good luck with family and welcome your new freedom, live the life you want and savour it.
- mina
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Reply #22 - February 17, 2013, 09:24 PM

Thank you all.

I just had a chat with my fiancé, I had nothing to fear.

His take on it was he would have "converted" even if I had told him before so it is one less thing my family can use against me.

He also said he knows and seen the pain caused to me by how much my family hurts already. At the moment he doesn't think I am strong enough for yet another battle and we know where we are together, how we live our life and what's important to us.

At the moment there is nothing to be achieved by coming out formally and perhaps gradually they will come to realise without me having to make such an announcement backing them into a corner where they feel they need to make a stand or react in an extreme. Once we are married they can also stop feeling like I'm their responsibility which might ease things.

Uberslave- yes I am so fortunate, thank you. It really is a difficult circumstance for you. I'm the first in my family to go outside my culture and ethnicity. I never thought I would either and any relationships I had I would keep them at arms length. I never intended to get engaged or married to anyone fr the same reason but at the risk of sounding like a hopeless stupid romantic, of the most ridiculous order- when you let yourself love someone and know they love you back completely suddenly nothing else matters. My boyfriend/now fiancé was a secret for 4 years because I was so concerned about my family accepting it. The thought of telling them terrified me to the core. I would breakdown and cry silently outside my father's bedroom in the night when I went home because I wanted to burst in and tell him but just couldn't.

But love and knowing you are doing the right thing gives you a strength. It's the only thing I believe in for sure these days ad the only thing i hold onto and have a true passion for. Somethings might seem the most difficult thing ever and though love won't make it easy, it does make it possible.

You can all vomit into the sick bucket now. sorry.
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Reply #23 - February 17, 2013, 09:27 PM

Good to hear things went well
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Reply #24 - February 17, 2013, 09:34 PM

You've got a great dude! Hold on to him!
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Reply #25 - February 17, 2013, 09:57 PM

You're really brave, you know. And considerate to those who matter to you. It's admirable. I'm glad you shared your story because it's like inspiration to people like me who have that dilemma with their parents.

Good luck to you, and welcome too
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Reply #26 - February 17, 2013, 10:14 PM

Thank you Jilla and I am glad if it helps even a little.

Already being here has helped my settle my mind and I thank everyone for making it so. So if I can help anyone in return in even the smallest way I am happy to.
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Reply #27 - February 17, 2013, 10:45 PM

Welcome Mina.

"But the pain I have caused crippled my mum and dad. threw my mum on a verge of a breakdown. I cannot contemplate telling them I am lost to Islam."

Isn't it amazing how our own happyness doesn't seem important to them at all, it's always secondary to following the code. There seems to be an awful lot of us who'd hate to upset others(myself included) but our own feelings are clearly irrelevant. I for one am finding that aspect of the whole thing increasingly tiresome.

By the way thanks for joining us.
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Reply #28 - February 17, 2013, 10:47 PM

Hi mina! Welcome here!

Your intro was great and touching. I never was "officially" a Muslim, but the virus of religion still touched me at some point (I almost converted to Islam). Humanity really needs to wake up and get rid of the fears. The CEMB youtube channel and this forum have been a good start for my own healing, and I hope it is the case for you too.

If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
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Reply #29 - February 20, 2013, 02:35 AM

Welcome to the forum

I'm sure you'll love it here.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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