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 Topic: Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson

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  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #30 - February 21, 2013, 01:04 AM
    Quote from: billy on February 20, 2013, 06:24 PM
    Waste of time even debating this nonsense. And that is what Geert Wilders brings to the table with his demagoguery.


    This was me yesterday <_< I could see him grinning in my mind, after he shakes everyone up. Then he leaves and everyone is looking at each other suspiciously. I think his intentions is to say a couple of things and let people's imaginations run wild with paranoia (but this is on the other wilders thread)

    One of the forums I was on yesterday was a biking forum, and they had this topic on, and one of the posters admitted he was Muslim. He wasn't there for the debate, he had hundred of posts, but it didn't stop people from accusing him of being  a liar when he said he wasn't an extremist and all that.
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #31 - February 21, 2013, 01:15 AM
    Yebbut the ones who worry me are the ones that pretend to not be Muslims at all! Like all of the people attacking that dude could have been closet jihadis who were just deflecting attention from themselves.

    Terror couch
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #32 - February 21, 2013, 01:43 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 20, 2013, 06:22 PM
    Let’s entertain the thought for a moment. Let’s say the government were to pass a “Deportation of Salafis” bill. How do you propose that we go about implementing it on a practical level?

    Do we round up all men with beards over 2 inches?

    Do we quiz all Muslims on their understanding of every verse in the Qur’an that mentions jihad?

    Do we ban short trousers?

    Seriously. Before we go rallying behind ideas, we need to be sure that we have thought them through.





    Ok here it is.


    Deport all hard core muslims (jihadi, salafi whatever) to their country of national origin that go around making threats of violence and harrasing people like is currently happening in Britain and Europe and going around causing unrest and heightening tensions.

    Since you brought your own story.  You did not engage in any of those behaviors while you were a salafi you would not have been impacted by the deportation of Islamic fascists.

    On the other hand Ajnem Choudry and people like him would have been removed from Britain.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #33 - February 21, 2013, 01:54 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2013, 01:15 AM
    Yebbut the ones who worry me are the ones that pretend to not be Muslims at all! Like all of the people attacking that dude could have been closet jihadis who were just deflecting attention from themselves.

    Terror couch


    It takes one to know one so is that what you're doing? Run for the hills
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #34 - February 21, 2013, 01:59 AM
    How are you not seeing the problem here. We should punish people who commit crimes, end of story. If the charge is inciting hatred or conspiracy to commit violence, charge them with that. Religion is inconsequential. If deportation happens to be an option for an individual, then it should be considered on a case by case bases. Blanket "deport salafis" statements will only lead to discrimination.
  • Re: Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #35 - February 21, 2013, 02:07 AM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on February 21, 2013, 01:43 AM
    Deport all hard core muslims (jihadi, salafi whatever) to their country of national origin that go around making threats of violence and harrasing people like is currently happening in Britain and Europe and going around causing unrest and heightening tensions.


    Where would you deport these people to?

    Anjem Choudary - Fervent Islamist, born in the UK.
    Feiz Mohammad - Islamist jihadi cleric, born in Sydney, Australia
    Yvonne Ridley - white female convert, works for Iranian PressTV, outspoken supporter of lots of Islamists, born in the UK

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #36 - February 21, 2013, 02:17 AM
    @HappyMurtad

    First you gotta convince then extra politically correct governments to actually charge and imprison the jihadis/salafis who are deemed to be dangerous to society by there actions of intimidation and harassment.

      - They don't seem to do that when Anjem Choudry and his types pull out their "behead those who insult islam" signs.

    If they go that way then European governments better get ready to invest in building more prisons.


    If the route is to keep them in the country and charge them for their crimes such as threats of violence and harrassment/bullying than it is gonna cost a large amount of tax payers money to jail the shitload of salafi/jihadi thugs that are going around and causing a mess (especially in Britain).


    Then you'd have to do all the calculations to see whether jailing them is more cost effective or deporting them.

    Since I don't have the information or time to calculate that out I'll just leave this post as my final point on the topic.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #37 - February 21, 2013, 02:39 AM
    If what you're worried about is threats of violence, harassment, unrest, and heightened tensions, then why not change your policy for such crimes thusly:

    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on February 21, 2013, 01:43 AM
    Deport all hard core muslims (jihadi, salafi whatever) people to their country of national origin that go around making threats of violence and harrasing people like is currently happening in Britain and Europe and going around causing unrest and heightening tensions.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #38 - February 21, 2013, 03:34 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 21, 2013, 02:07 AM
    Where would you deport these people to?

    Anjem Choudary - Fervent Islamist, born in the UK.
    Feiz Mohammad - Islamist jihadi cleric, born in Sydney, Australia
    Yvonne Ridley - white female convert, works for Iranian PressTV, outspoken supporter of lots of Islamists, born in the UK

    Another planet! dance

    They're not really living on this one anyway. Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #39 - February 21, 2013, 03:36 AM
    Yeah, let's do that. Then we can finally stop looking for intelligent life in space. Grin
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #40 - February 21, 2013, 03:41 AM
    Well hey, shipping that lot to another planet would do absolutely nothing to put intelligent life in space. If you shipped them to a planet without sentient life, their arrival would do fuck all to change the status quo.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #41 - February 21, 2013, 03:45 AM
    Exactly. Also, if there are intelligent aliens anywhere, they'd either become stupider under the influence of these three, or come and attack us in retaliation for sending them to their planet...
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #42 - February 21, 2013, 03:45 AM
    Anjem Choudary might be born in Britain, but I'm pretty sure his parents or grandparents weren't.

    Promoting mass immigration for cheap labor (starting decades ago) from countries that largely don't share values similar to Britain's was probably one of the biggest blunders Britain ever did. It cannot be undone, but it can be stopped from escalating.
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #43 - February 21, 2013, 03:48 AM
    Oh cool, so this is kinda like teh Nazis checking for Jewish grandparents?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #44 - February 21, 2013, 03:49 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 21, 2013, 03:45 AM
    Exactly. Also, if there are intelligent aliens anywhere, they'd either become stupider under the influence of these three, or come and attack us in retaliation for sending them to their planet...

    I vote we send them somewhere uninhabitable. That's really the sort of world they want anyway.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #45 - February 21, 2013, 03:50 AM
    Quote from: DogmasDemise on February 21, 2013, 03:45 AM
    Anjem Choudary might be born in Britain, but I'm pretty sure his parents or grandparents weren't.


    How far back would you propose we go to find a suitable place to deport him to? What about Yvonne Ridley? How far back would we need to go to find a place to deport her to? And then, how would you say we should convince the countries where you surmise they should go to, to take them in?

    Quote from: DogmasDemise on February 21, 2013, 03:45 AM
    Promoting mass immigration for cheap labor (starting decades ago) from countries that largely don't share values similar to Britain's was probably one of the biggest blunders Britain ever did. It cannot be undone, but it can be stopped from escalating.


    What's needed are more thoughtfully crafted programs for education and integration, not mass deportations.

    Almost all the exmuslims here and in other places are also descendants of Muslims. Would you have current or future exmuslims sent to places like Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. along with their families? Especially for those who are minors, how would you ensure that they don't get sent back to a place they have never known and where they'd be hunted and killed?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #46 - February 21, 2013, 03:51 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2013, 03:48 AM
    Oh cool, so this is kinda like teh Nazis checking for Jewish grandparents?


    It's the same rhetoric everywhere in totalitarian states and in the minds of would-be totalitarians Roll Eyes
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #47 - February 21, 2013, 04:05 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2013, 03:48 AM
    Oh cool, so this is kinda like teh Nazis checking for Jewish grandparents?


    Just pointing it out, I think you misunderstood my last message. I'm not saying Anjem Choudary should be deported. He's a citizen, he should be treated as everyone else under law. (Just try not to bring any more Anjem Choudaries into the country. Nothing good will come of it.)
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #48 - February 21, 2013, 04:06 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2013, 03:48 AM
    Oh cool, so this is kinda like teh Nazis checking for Jewish grandparents?

    Well, glad you said it> My mind was on those American Nazis on Louis Theroux's documentary. They are perfect candidates for domestic terrorism.
    The kids that go to Jesus camp - in the documentary, crazy lady makes reference to Palestinian children and says that Muslims are prepared to die for their cause, we need to raise kids like that. Potential Christian terrorism?



    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #49 - February 21, 2013, 04:08 AM
    Quote from: DogmasDemise on February 21, 2013, 04:05 AM
    Just pointing it out, I think you misunderstood my last message. I'm not saying Anjem Choudary should be deported. He's a citizen, he should be treated as everyone else under law. (Just try not to bring any more Anjem Choudaries into the country. Nothing good will come of it.)

    Oh that's fair enough then. Every country has the right to keep complete tossers out if they want to.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #50 - February 21, 2013, 04:24 AM
    Keep in mind however that even my (somewhat nationalist) ideas are considered "far right" and "xenophobic" by some. So there probably won't be any similar policies aimed at limiting the "cultural" jihad any time soon in any European countries which are mainly dominated by political correctness.

    Whether it's someone advocating something extreme (like mass killings or mass deportations) or simply limits on future immigration from Muslim majority countries, I feel it's all going to be lumped in the same category anyway. (I've gotten some really nasty reactions in the past.)
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #51 - February 21, 2013, 06:27 AM
    Yeah but keeping complete tossers out is not necessarily the same as a blanket ban by country of origin. For instance, IIRC the Netherlands has started vetting individual immigrants, by testing them to see if their views are compatible with living in a liberal democracy. That sort of thing is ok, IMO.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #52 - February 21, 2013, 06:41 AM
    I have a great idea. I call it the "Final Solution"
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #53 - February 21, 2013, 06:43 AM
    Sounds good. How does it work? grin12
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #54 - February 21, 2013, 06:47 AM
    It's still in the development phase. Me and my friend Himmler are batting some ideas around, getting stuff down on paper. Y'know, as you do.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #55 - February 21, 2013, 07:18 AM
    Quote from: DogmasDemise on February 20, 2013, 08:01 PM
    Seems like you are trying to play devil's advocate but in Romania the unemployment rate is roughly 6% so clearly we can't all be reluctant to work or incapable of supporting our families. There's also a technical issue here, we don't need visas to travel freely in the EU. We are in the EU. Wink

    Anyway, I talk talking about Muslim majority countries (which thankfully none are in the EU). Countries like Egypt in particular trouble me, they had a chance to form a real democracy and most voters went for the Muslim Brotherhood or Al-Noor. (So it's not really hard to believe that once there is a strength in numbers, which will inevitably happen over several generations of continued mass immigration, an Islamic voting block will form.)


    Well, I live in Norway, it's not a EU-member, but it's a part of the European Economic Area, which is to say that Norway in theory can be more conditional about the implications of the EEA. And this alternative has been scrutinized in the Norwegian public debate, with the rising problem of immigration from Eastern Europe and Romania.

    The problem with Islamic immigration is a whole lot more an ideological one, rather than an environmental one. Two different types of immigration problems.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Re: Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #56 - February 21, 2013, 11:31 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2013, 06:27 AM
    Yeah but keeping complete tossers out is not necessarily the same as a blanket ban by country of origin. For instance, IIRC the Netherlands has started vetting individual immigrants, by testing them to see if their views are compatible with living in a liberal democracy. That sort of thing is ok, IMO.


    Interesting. I'll check it out.

    I also think that at the very least there should be some interviewing process, but as critics of this pointed out, people can just lie about wanting democracy and no, I don't just mean "taqiyya!" or permissible lying (although that can certainly apply if you have an Islamist who thinks he's in a "Civilization Jihad" with the west such as the Muslim Brotherhood, or simply if the very idea of an interviewing process threatens him so he feels he has to hide his support for Sharia so his visa will be approved), I mean anyone can lie in general and there doesn't seem to be any reliable way to definitively tell moderates from fundamentalists. For example, people thought DawahFilms was moderate for a long time just because he talked smooth and condemned Al'Qaida, but that was until he opened his mouth about Sharia and started fantasizing about the re-Islamization of Spain or how the west should fall so "they" can rise up to take it or how execution for apostasy was fine.) People also think of MDI as moderate but I think there are some good signs they aren't. (My definition of moderate is simply someone who doesn't view his religion as political. My standards are a bit higher than someone who doesn't want to blow us up.)
  • Re: Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #57 - February 21, 2013, 12:04 PM
    Quote from: DogmasDemise on February 21, 2013, 04:05 AM
    Just try not to bring any more Anjem Choudaries into the country


    How do you do that?

    As you point out, Anjem's parents were not extremists when they came to the UK. So how will you know which Muslim immigrants will have babies that will turn into Anjem Choudarys?

    The argument I've heard Geert Wilder's supporters use is that the West should stop all Muslim immigrants coming into the country, so as to avoid the risk of having such people spreading hate in the country.

    Are you of that opinion?

  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #58 - February 21, 2013, 01:04 PM
    If I were in the shoes of these western European countries (I can't say it's a problem for my own country Romania) I would place an immediate ban on immigration from all Muslim majority countries, but I wouldn't deport Muslims already in the country, unless there were non-citizens in that country and actively participating in pro-Sharia initiatives. I just wouldn't grant any future visas for permanent residence, except maybe in the case of asylum seekers and then only on the condition that they do not support any political aspect of Islam.

    I don't really see what other option these countries have. As the demographics change and more and more people claim allegiance to a religion that incorporates an entire political system at odds with notions of individual liberty and democracy, I don't see how that can turn out well.

    If that is not possible I would at the very least require an interview of potential immigrants conducted by seasoned psychologists to try to filter out fundamentalists. The purpose would be to find out if the immigrant in question can be integrated into a western democracy (obviously someone supporting Sharia or any similar totalitarian system can't be integrated into a western pluralistic culture, wouldn't you agree?). They would have a final say and it wouldn't be open to appeal. But as I said, this is not full proof, people can (and do) lie. How can I tell?
  • Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
     Reply #59 - February 21, 2013, 02:39 PM
    DogmasDemise: Would you also suggest a one child-policy being enforced on parents from Muslim majority countries, so to further influence the demographics here?

    As to the demand for Sharia by extremists, I've found one thing particularly bothering. Why is it so that European countries cannot legally separate church and state? Why give the likes of Sharia-riders and the Christian orthodoxy a precedence on which they can build these ugly demands? Look at what's going on in Russia, between the Putin-regime and the Russian orthodox Church. What is now referred to as "the marriage between the Kremlin and the Church" is turning out to remind us just how ugly Tsarism used to be. The Orthodox Church is now very much in the driving seats of Russian politics. What about the rise of the Christian Orthodoxy in Serbia? What about the fact that the UK is officially Anglican, Germany officially Lutheran and even Sweden officially Lutheran? Which is to say there is no legal separation between church and state. Norway, thankfully, officially separated church and state in may 2012!

    Not a real problem right now. But is the claim for political power from Sharia'ists and their likes to be taken serious and one day even become a serious issue, then we can't have developed European countries claiming to be too secular for medieval religious laws on the basis that "we are mostly atheists or agnostics" (say we're in 2060 and the demographics continue to shift, that might very well not be the case), which is more or less the only real counter-argument here.

    This is also why the United States are miles ahead of Europeans, with a constitution that clearly and unmistakeably points out that the state ought not to respect the establishment of any religion. 
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
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