Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson

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- DogmasDemise
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Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #60 - February 21, 2013, 03:03 PM

Well Romania is secular, but you know people are people and sometimes Orthodox Church does have an influence.

But it's a relatively small influence. You cannot compare it to Sharia law which regulates a lot more aspects of a state. There is nothing like that in Orthodox Christianity (or Catholicism), there's no manual you can find that will tell you in depth this is how a Orthodox Christian country should be governed, these are the laws you need to implement and how to enforce them with earthly punishments, and this is the status of non-Christians... Christianity therefore is a lot less likely to lead to theocracy. (I'm not saying it can't happen or has never happened, but we need to be realistic and not just lump all religions together.)

But I am for strengthening secularism. Don't think I welcome Christian-based legal initiatives.
- Minimow
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Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #61 - February 21, 2013, 03:31 PM

Well DogmasDemise, I'm sorry to say but the Christian Orthodox Church poses the greatest theocratic threat to secular Europe by a mile and it has been so for decades.

In which European country do we have Muslim ulema enforcing blasphemy laws on the state's behalf, which is precisely what the Russian Orthodox Church is doing in Russia? In which European country do we have Muslim authorities performing genocides, the kind of genocide the Serbian Christian Orthodoxy was responsible for in Bosnia only two decades ago?

You're not comparing like with like here. Sharia'ists atm. are running around with pamplets. Christianity, whether people like it or not, is still a real thing in European politics.

Edit: This wasn't even my point, but felt I had to address it once you took it up.

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- TheDashingRabbit
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Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #62 - February 21, 2013, 04:00 PM

^

Well Christianity is practically dead and poses no threat in Western Europe at least.

With the exception of Bosnia

With Russia one would think that communism would have already rid the country of religion.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
- DogmasDemise
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Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #63 - February 21, 2013, 04:05 PM

That's probably because the "Sharia'ists" (as you call them) do not have the strength of numbers and that's my point, making sure they never do. In countries where they do (most recent example Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood take over) there are much gross encroachments on the separation of church and state.

And the Bosnian genocide really doesn't have any basis in Orthodox theology. Murder is a sin and would keep one from communion for years. I mean can you point to a priest or anyone with authority in the Orthodox churches who sanctioned it and justified it using the Bible or Orthodox tradition in a plausible way?
- ibn Bilal
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Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #64 - February 21, 2013, 04:08 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on February 21, 2013, 01:43 AM

Ok here it is.

Deport all hard core muslims (jihadi, salafi whatever) to their country of national origin that go around making threats of violence and harrasing people like is currently happening in Britain and Europe and going around causing unrest and heightening tensions.

Under what charges would you deport these people?

How would the charges against them be any different from charges against suspects of other backgrounds?

Would you be ok with a politician saying “Arrest all Blacks and Latinos who carry illegal handguns?”
- Minimow
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Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #65 - February 21, 2013, 04:27 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on February 21, 2013, 04:00 PM
With Russia one would think that communism would have already rid the country of religion.

It nearly did. It reduced it to a tiny curiosity, at least. The tides has turned, though.

Dogmasdemise:
Quote
And the Bosnian genocide really doesn't have any basis in Orthodox theology. Murder is a sin and would keep one from communion for years. I mean can you point to a priest or anyone with authority in the Orthodox churches who sanctioned it and justified it using the Bible or Orthodox tradition in a plausible way?

Wow, this is useless religious apologia at its worst, isn't it? You are not by any means Christian?

Slobodan Milosevic carried out his orders for ethnic cleansing with the full backing of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Even his justification for it was exclusively religious. To annex a Muslim country into Christian rule.

Just a curiosity, in 2011 a certain Milan Lukic arranged an event through which he intended to promote his book "The Hague Prisoner". The event was put together by the Serbian Orthodox Church and they even sent some of their priests to attend the book promotion. Do you know who this Milan Lukic is? He is a convicted war criminal, convicted by ICTY and tried by the Hague tribunal. What was he convicted for? Burning 120 Bosnian women, children and elderly men alive, among many things (including child rape).

Why do you think he never got caught, despite the trials and convictions? Because the Serbian Orthodox Church sheltered him (and many other of their puppets from the genocide) for decades. Forget sheltering, they have even the balls to promote their damn books!

So spare me for the apologia. History speaks for itself. And worst of all, the ugliness of the Belgrade Orthodoxy is on a rise again.

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- DogmasDemise
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Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #66 - February 21, 2013, 05:00 PM

I can assure you, I'm an atheist (and a bit of an anti-theist) and I don't want religion anywhere near politics even if overall I appear to be less aggressive on Christianity.
- Minimow
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Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #67 - February 21, 2013, 05:15 PM

Fair enough. I just had to clear that out. That there is absolutely no reason to believe Christianity poses a smaller threat than Islam. It showed only two decades ago what it was capable of doing when in power. How brutally it wanted to exterminate a whole civilization and annex its land. We are now seeing similar forces gaining momentum in Russia.

There is no reason to underestimate what Christianity is capable of as an ideology.

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
- Ishina
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Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #68 - February 21, 2013, 05:43 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on February 21, 2013, 04:08 PM
Under what charges would you deport these people?

How would the charges against them be any different from charges against suspects of other backgrounds?

Would you be ok with a politician saying “Arrest all Blacks and Latinos who carry illegal handguns?”

The logic is quite interesting, isn't it? Does it only apply to Muslims not born on UK soil, and mere vocal threats? Or does it also apply to other opinions about the universe/political stances and apply to other crimes? Like theft, traffic offences, punching someone in a bar fight, things like that. Would anybody not born on UK soil who are caught speeding, or caught shoplifting, or caught writing graffiti, be deported? Or is it just saying words with a mouth that would get one deported?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- Yi Sun-Sin
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Re: Geert Wilders offered multiculturalism lesson
Reply #69 - February 22, 2013, 03:51 AM

Quote from: Minimow on February 20, 2013, 01:13 PM
Multicultural societies can be successful, given certain sociopolitical conditions. There is nothing inherently impossible with that statement. The reason why the multicultural "experiment" is failing, is two fold.

I) Immigration of people with disfavorable levels of religiosity and stone-agish world views. Followed by the Western society's failure to unlearn or even challenge these things. Why?

II) Because of the filth of moral relativism and political correctness. That has given rise to an inability to take a clear stance against those who challenge free speech, those who subjugate women, honor killings, genital mutilation etc.

Basically, you are saying “It's easy to have multiple cultures living together as long as they share the same value and taboo systems” ? Yeah, of course. But then, are they really that different cultures ?
Quote from: Minimow on February 21, 2013, 02:39 PM
This is also why the United States are miles ahead of Europeans, with a constitution that clearly and unmistakeably points out that the state ought not to respect the establishment of any religion.

We do have that in France (though not in the Constitution). And here, it's much more done in practice .
Quote from: TheDarkRebel on February 21, 2013, 04:00 PM
Well Christianity is practically dead and poses no threat in Western Europe at least.

With the exception of Bosnia

Bosnia in Eastern Europe, isn't it ?

On the deportation question, I think we should deport people of any background that do serious crimes into this country called “prison” .
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