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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hello from Cardiff

 (Read 3582 times)
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  • Hello from Cardiff
     OP - February 20, 2013, 05:12 PM

    Hello everyone. I’m new to this forum though I have been aware of it for some time. It looks like it is a bit of a tradition here to write something when you become a member so here goes (I apologise in advance about the length but I will try to keep it interesting):

    First of all, I am a 30 year old professional living in Cardiff and would be interested in meeting like-minded people also living in Cardiff. As others have said, it’s a lonely world being born into a muslim family and not believing.

    I don’t think I have ever really been a muslim (though I was born into a muslim family in Bradford). I might have thought there was a god as a youngster but only because I was told so by adults. As long as I have been able to think independently I can’t recall seriously believing in God. In fact, from the age of about 12 I remember I used to be puzzled about how Jesus is mentioned in both Christianity and Islam. It seemed to me that one religion must be copying the other. Therefore the religion that came first must be the correct one. When I found out that Islam came later I was somewhat confused (I guess I had just assumed that Islam must have come first since I was being taught that Islam was the true religion). I just let the matter drop assuming I hadn’t understood things properly.

    To this day I have never read the Qur’an in original Arabic (though I have read various translations several times). I got partway though it at times as a child but I just couldn’t finish it. I didn’t pray much either and when I did it was only because I was told to do so. In fact it’s been so many years since I prayed or read the Qur’an that I can’t even remember how to pray (and I certainly can’t read Qur’anic Arabic anymore).

    All my family are religious but my younger brother is extremely religious - he travels to all sorts of Islamic events, sits with prominent sheikhs and can’t seem to go more than a few sentences without an “Insha’Allah” or some other related remark.

    It’s sad that one can become distanced from his/her family because of religion. I just can’t be asked to visit my family because every time I go I feel awkward that if I see relatives they will ask which mosque I went to for Eid namaz (prayer) or why wasn’t I at jumma (Friday prayer) or a whole host of other things. I feel like a total outcast. I think someone on another post used the word ‘suffocating’. That’s spot on.

    Here are two examples of situations that I found myself in:

    (i) I somehow got into a discussion about science with my two brothers two years ago. My younger brother (the super religious one) said something about how biologists can’t be trusted. I said of course they can be trusted. They are proper scientists who follow a rigorous methodology and their work is critically analysed by their peers... etc. Somehow this got onto the topic of biological evolution (you know where this is going). My older brother said words to the effect, “Darwin was a racist who saw some birds with curved beaks and decided they must have evolved so they could get the hard-to-reach food in the crevice!” I told him that was nonsense. I started explaining about all the other evidence Darwin gave (I’m quite well read on evolution) but before I got properly going my younger brother blurted out in astonishment, “Wait a minute! Are you saying you believe in evolution?!” Boy things got awkward after that (mental note: never bring up science with the family again).
    (ii) I went on holiday with my younger brother and a few friends several years ago. At one point they all got down to pray except me. They didn’t say anything to me and were totally cool towards me (no dodgy looks etc) but imagine how awkward I felt being the only one who didn’t pray (mental note: never go on holiday with muslims again).

    The truth is I have to be a totally fake person around family/friends. I can’t say things I want to say or do things I want to do. I’m thoroughly unhappy when I’m in Bradford. I just end up staying in my room upstairs and mess around on my netbook or I’ll read a book. My mother gets frustrated and asks me to come downstairs and sit with the family (which I don’t).

    I just don’t know how to tell them. I think my younger brother, since he is so religious, would be disgusted with me and may well not speak to me again. I think my older brother (who I get on best with) is the most understanding and may still speak to me. My mother simply wouldn’t accept my position and think I have been influenced by goray (whites) in Cardiff. I have tried explaining to her very gently several times over the years with words such as, “I’m different to the rest of the family” but she just snaps at me with things like, “What are you saying? Would you rather be a gorah (white person)?” I have reached the end of my tether and am seriously considering just telling them. I have planned for a very long time now to minimise my communication with the family to the occasional hi/bye. Every year that passes I visit Bradford for shorter and shorter periods (quite intentionally). But every time I try to reduce contact something happens to mess up my plan. Someone dies or someone is getting married so I have to come and visit or it will be very embarrassing for the family. So I am forced to come back even though I don’t want to. Last year I decided that enough is enough and I simply wouldn’t come back for ‘events’ from now on. Then last year my older brother’s nikah (wedding vows) was announced. Although I felt bad I decided not to attend. There will always be something or other that comes up. It never ends. My mother slammed the phone down on me when I told her and I haven’t spoke to her since. In fairness she has tried to contact me several times but I am so angry with her I have refused to answer. I felt very bad for my older brother (he is my favourite person in the whole world) so I bought him a super nice present in December (Samsung Galaxy Tab2 10.1 inch tablet – he loved it). His walima (wedding banquet) recently happened. Again, I didn’t attend. He spoke to me on Skype several times even though he knew I wouldn’t be attending so I hope he has overlooked this. My younger brother’s first child is due in May and they’ll want me to attend. You see? Something always comes up. Here I am trying to reduce my contact with Bradford but it’s impossible.

    I think someone said it best on one of the posts: ‘I feel like being born into a Muslim family has permanently ruined my life.’

    Note if the above seems somehow incomplete it's because I deleted the first half of the post - the whole thing would have been too long. It was the reason I left Bradford in the first place (bad relation with my father).

    Anyway, I hope if there is anyone from Cardiff they will give me a shout Smiley

    And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Bertrand Russell
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #1 - February 20, 2013, 05:46 PM

    Hello!

    I sympathise and empathise with so much of what you are saying. I juggle my life and family constantly.

    I do not know the ins and outs of course but it seems so sad that you didnt feel you could be at your brother's wedding.

    I suspect the religiosity of your family is comparable to mine- especially the younger brother stuff but I wont let islam take my family from me. Unless they cast me out and made it impossible for me to see them I will accept the few days of awkwardness and nagging and complaining that I dont pray etc because i was raised in so much love and I dont want to be the one that tears that away from my family. If they chose to do that because of islam so be it.

    Your family are the way they are because faith was entrenched in them.  And just because they look down on you for your lifestyle  does not mean they dont love you. Its hard to get your head round that. Im not saying just because they love you, you owe them your life and live the way they want or believe what they want.

    But I do know that I was the most in pain, anger and confusion and felt most alone when I tried to shut them out. In my teens and when I finished uni and returned home I would lock myself away in my little room for days on end and shut out my family and it created so much pain and toxicity.

    Please dont close the door on your family unless they are deliberately hostile and abusive towards you. Alot of their behaviour is not their fault, its how they are conditioned- I dont doubt my mum when she says she feels phyical pain when I wont pray with her and the guilt it causes is horrendous.

    But the pain caused to your mother of losing her son, and feeling rejected I think must be immeasurable.

    And if you continue being a son that shows her you love her and cares for her and your family  regardless of your lack of piety will show them clearly that islam and devout muslims do not have the monopoly on goodness, kindness and patience. Because at the moment they will blame the fact you are distanced from them on you being "gorefied" and irreligious,  not on the discomfort you are in because of them.

  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #2 - February 20, 2013, 05:50 PM

    Welcome by the way.

    I think here you will never be alone!
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #3 - February 20, 2013, 05:52 PM

    Hi IMadeOfClay - thanks for joining the forum. And thanks for your very interesting intro. The kinds of feelings and tensions you have with some members of your family will be familiar to people here. I'm not sure if we have any members here from south Wales - if we do I hope they make themselves known!

    (Stardust is Welsh but she lives in England now)

    I think you've found a safe space where you can be yourself, either way  Smiley

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #4 - February 20, 2013, 05:59 PM

    Welcome to the forum! That was really a great introduction. I hope you enjoy it here.  As is customary, have some animals:  parrot bunny
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #5 - February 20, 2013, 06:03 PM

    What on god's earth is that rabbit doing?
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #6 - February 20, 2013, 06:04 PM

    Hey! Welcome to the forum   signwelcome


    Have a parrot  parrot

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #7 - February 20, 2013, 06:11 PM

    Welcome, IMadeOfClay.
    I feel you man, my family don't know that I'm an "apostate" either and, considering we're very close, the situation is just awful. I change to this totally different person when I'm around them.
    I hope you enjoy your time here.
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #8 - February 20, 2013, 06:37 PM

    Thank you for your replies everyone. Nah I don't think I will ever cut out my family but I feel well awkward around them.

    Oh and thanks for the animals everyone Smiley

    And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Bertrand Russell
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #9 - February 20, 2013, 06:43 PM

    Hi IMadeOfClay

    I hear ya my friend. I have lived in Bradford all my life and am pretty much open about my atheism. My extended and immediate family are aware of my atheism. I'm pretty much apathetic to religious discussions and let people witter on if they feel like it. I don't feel the need to try and dissuade them from their belief. As long as they don't bother me!

    Anyhow, if you are in Bradford we can hook up. Not to worry. I'm not a heresy sniffer! Afro
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #10 - February 20, 2013, 06:49 PM

    @ Omaar Khayaam: For sure dude. The only problem is I am rarely in Bradford. But if I am ever there I will give you a shout for sure Smiley

    Thanks

    And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Bertrand Russell
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #11 - February 20, 2013, 06:51 PM

    Do you know other ex-Muslim atheists from Bradford or elsewhere?
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #12 - February 20, 2013, 06:57 PM

    Not from Bradford I'm afraid. If I ever hear of any I will ask them to message you. My holiday buddy is from Newcastle. He's an ex-muslim. I don't think he is on CEMB though. I have to be very careful not to let my secret out. I personally couldn't care less for my own sake. It's just that it will cause a lot of problems for the family. *sigh*

    And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Bertrand Russell
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #13 - February 20, 2013, 07:01 PM

    I understand. It's like walking a tightrope. I'm pretty fortunate that my family is pretty liberal. There is a mix of Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi, Atheists and Agnostics. It's the rest of Bradford I need to be careful of.
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #14 - February 21, 2013, 03:17 AM

    Quote
    I understand. It's like walking a tightrope. I'm pretty fortunate that my family is pretty liberal. There is a mix of Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi, Atheists and Agnostics.



    Man Omar you are one lucky bunny !


    If only my family was half as liberal as yours seems to be.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #15 - February 21, 2013, 09:10 AM

    It feels great now that I'm an atheist. But can you imagine how it felt as a Hanafi and Naqshbandi Sunni Muslim?
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #16 - February 21, 2013, 09:20 AM

    I have come to grips with a few things 1) I have to be honest 2) whoever wants to be in my life will be in it regardless.

    I used to be really scared about coming out to my parents but you just reach a certain point where you don't want to live a lie.   If they know then they can make a decision about what they want to do, and then you wont have to feel bad bc you were not the one that cut the ties, of course they will try to pull a guilt trip saying that you are leaving them bc you are leaving islam etc but they are NOT Islam.

    You are not leaving them you are leaving an ideology, that's what I told my mom.  She got really quite and I think it sunk in.  She is still hostile but she knows I am a grown up, sometimes you just need to take a stand and say enough is enough.   But also realize that your safety comes first ok?  If you think someone will do you harm then don't tell them. 

    I hope that helps.  Best of luck, I have some fam in Cardiff too equally religious lol but not immediate so Smiley 

    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #17 - February 21, 2013, 10:51 AM

    Yes. Great advise. I'm pretty sure this is the year where I tell them though I do not think it will go down well at all - I'm almost certain they will think it is because I moved away from home and developed these ideas in Cardiff.

    Unfortunately my family situation is more complicated than that. I have issues with my father also.
    My father treated my mother very poorly during my growing years in Bradford. I can recall several episodes where he got so bad towards my mother that she ran away from home to her brother’s house. When she returned after a few days he would leave her alone for a while but then he just couldn’t help himself and started again. He would begin by just quietly criticising her about anything (and I mean ANYTHING). Every time he started by mother would think, “Here we go again.” She knew not to say anything back so she’d just stay quiet while he kept on. After a long while my father would realise he wasn’t getting a reaction out of her so he would then start criticising her family. Often my mother managed to stay quiet even then. If that didn’t work my father would change tactics and straight out insult her family. Of course this became too much for my mother so she would tell him not to insult her family. That was just the que he needed to launch into a full blown tirade about her and her family (the thing is it’s my mother’s family that are by far the nicer people than my father’s family). From there it just escalated and he would often hit her. I lost track of how many sleepless nights I was forced to listen to my mother crying and screaming at him to leave her alone.
    This went on for years. As you can imagine this left me very angry and bitter growing up. I literally would fantasise about killing my father. Not very healthy thoughts for a young boy! I knew from the age of about 15 that I would leave home the first chance I got. In fact that was the biggest motivation for me to try hard in school. I had always been a dosser. I would end up near the bottom of the class year in year out. To this day my father thinks I did well in school because of him (he has said so many times). It still hasn’t occurred to him how strange it was that I went from bottom of the class to literally top so suddenly (I got prizes for coming top in physics, chemistry and maths at A-level). In fact I’m glad I did for another reason. It was during my A-levels, while I actually paid attention to my studies, that I fell in love with science.

    Now, I must be fair to my father and say that he genuinely cared for his boys (we are three brothers). He wanted the best for us. He didn’t have much money and he didn’t have a decent chance in life himself (he had problems with his father who threw him into a mill at the age of 15) and did amazingly well to get all three of us into a private school. He would also buy us lots of books which helped us greatly. I think the reason he hated my mother was because he felt she was mentally deficient and wasn’t doing enough for the kids. Of course he was 100% wrong on this but I think that’s what he thought (there were other reasons too). So here we have a father who tries hard for his kids but treats his wife very poorly, even in front of the kids. What are the kids supposed to think? My father was too stupid to realise that his poor treatment of his wife was devastating his kids and leaving a lasting impression on them. I must admit though it seemed to leave considerably more of an impression on me that my other brothers - they seemed to get on fine with him and have continued to do so since. From what I understand (I have lived in Cardiff for a long time now) he has behaved much better towards my mother for quite a few years.

    Since I moved to Cardiff 10 years ago I have only visited home about twice a year for only a few days at a time (and long before the end of the visit I can’t wait to leave). Whenever my father tried to talk to me about anything I would just blank him and walk out of the room in a very obvious way so he understood not to bother me. My mother knew full well I wanted nothing to do with him but every time she called me in Cardiff she would pass the phone to my father. He would try to get a conversation going but I just answered with monotonous yes/no replies and after an awkward few seconds the conversation would end. He acted like I must be depressed in Cardiff and that’s why I sound depressed when I talk to him. Unbelievable! He knew full well I had a huge problem with him. He just pretended like everything was cool between us. I have explained to my mother countless times I don’t want to talk to him but she can’t seem to grasp it and would continue passing him the phone afterwards. As a result I rarely answered the phone and that has continued to this day. It’s as if both parents have forgotten the past and wonder why I am behaving like a delinquent and that really ticks me off. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m VERY happy that they seem to get along but I, personally, don’t want anything to do with it. I largely ignore my father who tries to talk to me like nothing ever happened. He screwed up very badly when it mattered and I won’t forget that. He left me severely depressed for ~15 years to the point I couldn't function normally at work. To this day my father thinks I'm an ungrateful brat who has forgotten his kindness and I'm "just like your mother was". He has also said I didn't deserve a father like him.

    I am grateful to him that he tried so hard with my education but I can’t forget the many bad years. It took me years after moving away to get over my constant daily bitterness. He’s not a bad person, just a stupid person who didn’t understand how badly he was damaging me. I don’t hate him anymore but I don't feel anything towards him either.

    So you see this is the other reason I'm a loner in the family. I'm the only one who doesn't want anything to do with my father. Maybe I'm wrong but this is how I feel.

    And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Bertrand Russell
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #18 - February 21, 2013, 11:31 AM

    Hi IMadeOfClay,

    I have?/had a similar problem with my parents. If my father was not happy with something my mother would do, he would often insult her family/her upbringing. But the truth was my mother's side of the family was better than my father's, my father's siblings do not get along and they create toxic environments whenever they are together. They gave my mother a very hard time whenever she was visiting them back in the home country (parents were expats). In Pakistani culture in-laws can be pretty vicious. My maternal grandparents loved and were supernice with my father. My paternal grandparents, not so much (even though they picked out my mom for him, their was no drama when the marriage was being made 'between families'). It was unfair to my mother.
    However my father absolutely would not stand anything said against his family from my mother.
    I got sick and tired of him attacking my mother by insulting her family. To me both sides of relatives are my family. I think he knew deep down that his side of the family were not as nice as my mom's, and this had something to do with it.
    One day I got sick of it during their verbal fights and called him out for his double standards and insulting ways. It did not go down well. A lot of screaming and crying (that was me sadly, a young adult male) was had, but then he never did it again (at least not in my presence). It was the first time I ever talked back or challenged my father. Both of us are stubborn, it was in front on my younger siblings but I didn't back down. It was worth it in the end.

    Sometimes communication is painful but has to be done. You should consider hanging out with your mom and elder bro (at least) more.

    And obviously I stay away from his family as much as I can, I cannot stand their petty bullshit. Now as an ex-muslim I avoid contact with my mom's side as well - both sides are religious, all want me to get married to a nice muslim girl ASAP but I simply deflect  talk away from this topic. My parents are ok if I find a girl myself but I never have had girlfriends (was very religious myself, was expecting and was ready for an arranged marriage by this age) and will not marry a religious muslimah so now I am in a bit of a pickle.
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #19 - February 21, 2013, 11:54 AM

    Yes it sounds like your situation has parallels with mine. I literally screamed at my father to leave my mother alone on a several occasions while I was growing up. All that did was cause him to shut up for a day or so (but not before letting me know what he thought of my mother - unfortunately my father is very clever with words and can corner you even when he's clearly wrong). Then he would start all over again. He was a very petty person for many years.

    I regularly chat with my older brother on skype. My mother (who is only doing what she thinks is right) tries to get me talking to my father. I can't seem to make her understand. I have been trying for years. I honestly can't stand being around him. I don't hate him anymore but I just can't stand being around him either.

    Btw do you live with/away from your family?

    And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Bertrand Russell
  • Hello from Cardiff
     Reply #20 - February 21, 2013, 07:30 PM

    Haha my father is good with words too. Luckily we still have a good relationship even if we are not that close. He's clever in that he totally avoids talking about religion with me as much as he can.

    Well my parents moved out some months ago to Europe; but my younger siblings are still with me working hard to get their visas. Only when they leave will I be able to live independently and freely for the first time. And as they are the ones moving out, I am spared the drama of trying to move out and live away from them (without education as an excuse as I have finished studying).
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