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 Topic: Christianity equal to Islam?

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  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #30 - February 22, 2013, 11:10 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on February 22, 2013, 06:40 PM
    I stand corrected HM Smiley

    Just out of curiosity, did any of these "Christian crimes" occur in the 21st century or are we talking the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition?


    Glad you asked the question. It is about time for Christianity to be scrutinized again. In modern literature, the historical role of Christianity in "bad cases" has been overlooked at best and covered up at worst.

    What else can explain how the Bosnian genocide in the 1990's has been widely attributed to fascists and not the Serbian Orthodox Church? I've written this before, so I'll just copy/paste:

    Quote from: Minimow on February 21, 2013, 04:27 PM
    Slobodan Milosevic carried out his orders for ethnic cleansing with the full backing of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Even his justification for it was exclusively religious. To annex a Muslim country into Christian rule.

    Just a curiosity, in 2011 a certain Milan Lukic arranged an event through which he intended to promote his book "The Hague Prisoner" (notice the title). The event was put together by the Serbian Orthodox Church and they even sent some of their priests to attend the book promotion. Do you know who this Milan Lukic is? He is a convicted war criminal, convicted by ICTY and tried by the Hague tribunal. What was he convicted for? Burning 120 Bosnian women, children and elderly men alive, among many things (including child rape).


    This is Serbian Orthodoxy, committing crimes against humanity and sheltering their puppets.

    How come we haven't heard more of the Catholic involvement in the Rwanda massacre? How come we haven't heard more about the Catholic radio broadcasters who roared on the psychopathic machete-gang? Who called for religious purity, using subtle language like "clean the streets" and "do God's work? How do we not know more about the atrocities committed in the Catholic churches? That when the Tutsis arrived there and asked the Catholic priests for prayer and redemption, was asked "Is the God of the Tutsis still alive?" and later trapped inside the churches and ran over with bulldozers? The most recorded case of this is Father Athanase Seromba who combined lured 2000(!) men, children and women to his church. All of whom where killed.

    Why do I mention this? Because Catholic bishops have been heavily involved in Rwanda politics for over a century, with the Vaticans full and clear knowledge. This is even pointed out by Rwandan journalist Martin Kimani. The senior representative of Rome, Archbishop André Perraudin, helped establish the Hutu Power, the thuggish gang who later committed these atrocities. The Catholic Church supported the Hutu Power as a strategy to maintain political presence in Rwanda.

    You can read about these things page up, page down. I recommend the likes of journalist Martin Kimani and Daniel Tonjaga.

    And as for DogmasDemise call for us to show Biblical scriptures advocating for genocide, I can always quote the Old Testament, but I find this rather cheap (though this undoubtedly has been used as a divine precedent). Whatever you think inspired the Crusades, the inquisition, 9/11 etc, is exactly what inspired the Bosnian genocide and the Rwandan massacre. An unstoppable urge to further and expand ones religion and annex others. To gain religious purity and control. And ultimately: To do God's work, as Milan Lukic would've told you, as Athanase Seromba would've told you and as Al Shabab will tell you when the decapitate a young girl. I'm doing God's work.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #31 - February 23, 2013, 01:05 AM
    Quote from: Jila on February 22, 2013, 10:21 PM
    On a totally unrelated note, studying the church in history had a huge impact on me. It was the first trigger that got the doubt ball rolling.  thnkyu Mr.Church


    Same! I fell in love with history and when I learned that Constantine "converted" himself and his nation, it was all a political scheme. "If you can't beat them, join them" with a twist of "and then merge their religion with ours".
  • Re: Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #32 - February 23, 2013, 01:11 AM
    Quote from: Minimow on February 22, 2013, 11:10 PM
    Glad you asked the question. It is about time for Christianity to be scrutinized again. In modern literature, the historical role of Christianity in "bad cases" has been overlooked at best and covered up at worst.

    What else can explain how the Bosnian genocide in the 1990's has been widely attributed to fascists and not the Serbian Orthodox Church? I've written this before, so I'll just copy/paste:

    This is Serbian Orthodoxy, committing crimes against humanity and sheltering their puppets.

    How come we haven't heard more of the Catholic involvement in the Rwanda massacre? How come we haven't heard more about the Catholic radio broadcasters who roared on the psychopathic machete-gang? Who called for religious purity, using subtle language like "clean the streets" and "do God's work? How do we not know more about the atrocities committed in the Catholic churches? That when the Tutsis arrived there and asked the Catholic priests for prayer and redemption, was asked "Is the God of the Tutsis still alive?" and later trapped inside the churches and ran over with bulldozers? The most recorded case of this is Father Athanase Seromba who combined lured 2000(!) men, children and women to his church. All of whom where killed.

    Why do I mention this? Because Catholic bishops have been heavily involved in Rwanda politics for over a century, with the Vaticans full and clear knowledge. This is even pointed out by Rwandan journalist Martin Kimani. The senior representative of Rome, Archbishop André Perraudin, helped establish the Hutu Power, the thuggish gang who later committed these atrocities. The Catholic Church supported the Hutu Power as a strategy to maintain political presence in Rwanda.

    You can read about these things page up, page down. I recommend the likes of journalist Martin Kimani and Daniel Tonjaga.

    And as for DogmasDemise call for us to show Biblical scriptures advocating for genocide, I can always quote the Old Testament, but I find this rather cheap (though this undoubtedly has been used as a divine precedent). Whatever you think inspired the Crusades, the inquisition, 9/11 etc, is exactly what inspired the Bosnian genocide and the Rwandan massacre. An unstoppable urge to further and expand ones religion and annex others. To gain religious purity and control. And ultimately: To do God's work, as Milan Lukic would've told you, as Athanase Seromba would've told you and as Al Shabab will tell you when the decapitate a young girl. I'm doing God's work.


    POTM nomination
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #33 - February 23, 2013, 03:09 AM
    Well Jila you are right Muslims are always the first victims of Islam. But the bombings are done by Muslims claiming that Shia's and Ahemedi's aren't Muslim. Then things just start to get confusing and blurry.
    Like I said Christianity does have it's crazies and even some people who encourage violence, but they are in the minority(today). Christianity has been moving more towards liberalism while Islam is charging head first into extremism (Islamic Revival). Reports from Egypt, Turkey, and Indonesia, once very secular countries are seeing a push for more religious laws, more religious schools in the name of morality and purity,  and threats of extremist leaking in. Meanwhile in Europe and America people are leaving churches and becoming more secular and accepting. Even views on homosexuals for example are progressing as the upcoming generation is more tolerant. Islam and Christianity are going in complete opposite directions.
    Christianity in Africa is a whole different bucket of fish as Many Africans hold beliefs of magic and superstition that blends into what Christian missionaries teach them. Pointing out Christianity in Africa is like saying beheadings in Saudi Arabia represents all Muslims.

    ALSO PLEASE. THE OLD TESTAMENT IS NOT RELEVANT TO CHRISTIANITY.
    The Old Testament are laws for the Hebrews, and was included in the Bible as a history lesson, but is not meant to be followed. Christianity begins with NEW Testament when Jesus shows up, and started to change laws and stuff. Christians are only suppose to follow the teachings of Jesus not the Old Testament teachings. If that were the case Christians would have dietary laws for example as stated in the Old Testament, like not eating pork or shelled fish, but they do not. Also the punishment for adultery in the Old Testament is stoning a woman to death, when Jesus approached a woman who was about to be stoned to death he stopped the people from stoning her by saying "He who has not sinned cast the first stone" in which everyone walked away and the woman's life was spared.

    Dear God I sound like a apologist someone shoot me. XD
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #34 - February 23, 2013, 03:16 AM
    Quote
    Dear God I sound like a apologist someone shoot me.


    I was about to say that lol .


    But I get the point you are making. Christianity was just as bad as Islam in the past but if we are looking at the current situation then muslim fundamentalists (salafis, jihadis) seem to be the only religious group causing problems on a global scale.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #35 - February 23, 2013, 04:11 AM
    @Jila

    I don't think you get my point at all. It's not about democracy vs. dictatorship. Again, Gaza is a democracy as was Nazi Germany. It is about civil liberties and protection of basic human rights. Apparently, if you have an election every couple of years you're a democracy and it's all good. For instance Malaysia is considered "partly free" by Freedom House and there isn't a single Muslim country that is considered "free". 

    Is there a single Muslim country that is a secular democracy where basic human rights are protected? Just answer that for me, please. 

    All I'm saying is the dearth of basic human rights in virtually all Muslim countries speaks for itself. 

    And btw how come the U.S. has secularism wrong and sucks arse but Malaysia is a "democracy" wacko
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #36 - February 23, 2013, 12:24 PM
    Quote
    Is there a single Muslim country that is a secular democracy where basic human rights are protected? Just answer that for me, please.


    Bosnia and Albania. Muslim majority countries with secular constitutions.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #37 - February 23, 2013, 05:58 PM
    Malaysia to a certain degree. I think they are on the right path since they tend to encourage science in schools and see other Asia countries as economic competition which pushes them towards developing their country not through morality and purity (Which is what's going to kill Islamic countries) but simply through intellect and aspiring to make a country progressive.
    I have many Malaysian friends that are really chill. Smiley so much so I forget that they're Muslim. Which is how it should be.
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #38 - February 24, 2013, 03:23 AM
    I would say that you shouldn't be afraid to "sound like an apologist" if you believe that someone is over-criticizing a religion.

    In any case, any religion can inspire bad actions or violence. The question is, how well or should I say, to what degree is it based in the tradition of that religion? If the connection isn't very strong, you might be able to just plausibly blame it on mainly human action.

    Here's quick example, Christian kills gay man. Is Christianity to blame? Yes and no.

    Christianity forbids murder, but at the same time it dehumanizes homosexuals and make it clear that (at least in Old Testament times) God wanted homosexuals dead. So I would say it bears at least partial responsibility (but not full) for any anti-gay hate crime.

    But Islam institutionalizes homophobia with earthly punishments that other people must carry out. That's a whole different level of messed up in my view.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #39 - February 24, 2013, 04:11 AM
    Do not Muslim countries guarantee greater freedom to be a Muslim? Is there a greater freedom than submission of your will. oh former slaves of Allah? JK

    Anyhow, did someone say that God of Abraham commanded something in Yugoslavia?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #40 - February 24, 2013, 04:53 AM
    Though i believe all religions are man-made and are evil. Islam just seems the worst of them all.
    These two religions are very similar to each other because the Quran is just a copy and paste from the bible with some taken from other sources and people's imaginations.
    Christianity is just as evil as Islam,only better.
    Many Islamic countries are controlling and strict because that's how its founder was.Mohammed was a controlling person who threatened people to worship Allah through false surahs and hadiths. Jesus wasn't hard and controlling like Mohammed ,he even preached a lot about unconditional love and forgiveness which the Quran misses out in a lot of its chapters. That explains why most christian countries are relaxed and not as strict as the muslim countries.
    While Islam emphasizes on hatred of disbelievers and those who rebel against Allah, Christianity rather teaches you to love your neighbors as the way you love yourself.Christianity is Evil but still way better than Islam,Mohammed knew he couldn't copy everything in the Bible so he had to take some teachings from his weird imagination and arabian fairy tales.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #41 - February 24, 2013, 05:06 AM
    Quote from: Minimow on February 23, 2013, 12:24 PM
    Bosnia and Albania. Muslim majority countries with secular constitutions.


    Are they just secular on paper or secular in practice as well ? Because one does not necessarily imply the other.


    Case in point:  U.S. has a secular constitution where as Canada has "God" in the constitution and has a pretty "Christian constitution"

    BUT

    we are alot more secular than the U.S. in  practice.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #42 - February 24, 2013, 05:11 AM
    Quote from: Crunchy Cds on February 23, 2013, 03:09 AM
    Well Jila you are right Muslims are always the first victims of Islam. But the bombings are done by Muslims claiming that Shia's and Ahemedi's aren't Muslim. Then things just start to get confusing and blurry.
    Like I said Christianity does have it's crazies and even some people who encourage violence, but they are in the minority(today). Christianity has been moving more towards liberalism while Islam is charging head first into extremism (Islamic Revival). Reports from Egypt, Turkey, and Indonesia, once very secular countries are seeing a push for more religious laws, more religious schools in the name of morality and purity,  and threats of extremist leaking in. Meanwhile in Europe and America people are leaving churches and becoming more secular and accepting. Even views on homosexuals for example are progressing as the upcoming generation is more tolerant. Islam and Christianity are going in complete opposite directions.
    Christianity in Africa is a whole different bucket of fish as Many Africans hold beliefs of magic and superstition that blends into what Christian missionaries teach them. Pointing out Christianity in Africa is like saying beheadings in Saudi Arabia represents all Muslims.

    ALSO PLEASE. THE OLD TESTAMENT IS NOT RELEVANT TO CHRISTIANITY.
    The Old Testament are laws for the Hebrews, and was included in the Bible as a history lesson, but is not meant to be followed. Christianity begins with NEW Testament when Jesus shows up, and started to change laws and stuff. Christians are only suppose to follow the teachings of Jesus not the Old Testament teachings. If that were the case Christians would have dietary laws for example as stated in the Old Testament, like not eating pork or shelled fish, but they do not. Also the punishment for adultery in the Old Testament is stoning a woman to death, when Jesus approached a woman who was about to be stoned to death he stopped the people from stoning her by saying "He who has not sinned cast the first stone" in which everyone walked away and the woman's life was spared.

    Dear God I sound like a apologist someone shoot me. XD



    lol couldn't have agreed more.  thnkyu
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #43 - February 24, 2013, 06:15 AM
    Quote from: Minimow on February 23, 2013, 12:24 PM
    Bosnia and Albania. Muslim majority countries with secular constitutions.

    Kosovo?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #44 - February 24, 2013, 06:22 AM
    @ALethia,
    As far as I know most Muslim countries are recognised as theocracies and dictatorhips; regimes that do no get chnaged with governments. Malaysia and Indo are none of the mentioned and are recognised as democracies.

    Again, there isn't *a* democracy. Do you know how many different types of democracies there are today? Is a Latin American democracy the same as a Liberal democracy? Can either compare to an Islamic democracy? No two democracies are the same. You can have a "semi democracy" which is a mix of authoritarian and democratic features. Transitioning countries usually have mixed features.

    Quote
    Is there a single Muslim country that is a secular democracy where basic human rights are protected? Just answer that for me, please.


    Is that directed at me? If so, what does that have to do with anything I wrote? If it's not, sorry Tongue Minimow seems to know about that Smiley

    Quote
    And btw how come the U.S. has secularism wrong and sucks arse but Malaysia is a "democracy" wacko



    You know, I do get your point. But we're not even talking about the same things. If we were gonna start a topic about human rights violations, sure, it makes sense to ask those ^ questions. I called Malaysia and Indonesia democracies..
    Your words were as though I called them model states or something lol

    @Spazzing

    Good points.
    I reckon the (western) followers of Islam are sheeple without a direction/leadership while Christianity tends to be powerful and sly about it (It's that reason that I dislike Xtianity more - they use their power and demonise anyone they don't like)
    Muslims reaction to Islamic terrorism/rioting includes distancing themselves, getting defensive/in denial or hanging their head in shame.
    Totally agree with your points about the hate and the control.

    @Sakura,
    I really do envy my Malay and Indo friends because of what you mentioned. They are all part time hijabis with barely any restrictions. They're allowed to date too (most of my friends are married to their high school sweethearts).
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #45 - February 24, 2013, 11:31 AM
    @Jila
    You’re missing the point again. It has nothing at all to do with democracy, of which there are many different forms. It has everything to do with human rights; Malaysia is often praised for being a liberal Muslim democracy, which is true, but converting out of Islam is not legal and Islamic laws are imposed hence it is not “free” and basic human rights are violated in the name of religion. My point is that basic human rights and Islam (even in its most diluted forms) cannot coexist, which is not the case with Christianity. Also, there are a few Muslim countries where apostasy carries the death sentence and apostates are persecuted in most Muslim countries. The same cannot be said for Christian countries.

    There are 57 Muslim majority countries in the world and you can literally count the ones that aren’t complete shitholes on one hand. Srsly, is there anything in modern Christendom that even comes close to the level of insanity found in KSA, Iran or even somewhere like Pakistan?

    Islam is definitely more toxic to civilization than Christianity; I think that’s just an obvious fact and anyone who looks at the world around them objectively can see that. That is what I’m arguing and that is the reason I brought up the lack of human rights in virtually all societies that have been blessed with Islam.

    Would you prefer to live in a Muslim-majority society or a Christian-majority one?
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #46 - February 24, 2013, 12:05 PM
    Quote from: DogmasDemise on February 24, 2013, 03:23 AM
    I would say that you shouldn't be afraid to "sound like an apologist" if you believe that someone is over-criticizing a religion.

    In any case, any religion can inspire bad actions or violence. The question is, how well or should I say, to what degree is it based in the tradition of that religion? If the connection isn't very strong, you might be able to just plausibly blame it on mainly human action.

    Here's quick example, Christian kills gay man. Is Christianity to blame? Yes and no.

    Christianity forbids murder, but at the same time it dehumanizes homosexuals and make it clear that (at least in Old Testament times) God wanted homosexuals dead. So I would say it bears at least partial responsibility (but not full) for any anti-gay hate crime.

    But Islam institutionalizes homophobia with earthly punishments that other people must carry out. That's a whole different level of messed up in my view.


    This all seems semantic to me. Again, I can site the old testament (with plenty of references to punishment for homosexuality). But when the Christian God wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah for its sexual lewdness (read homosexuality) it forwards a precedent. It sends a message. Isn't it clear how Christians (and Muslims) take a moral point from how willingly Abraham intended to kill his son, on order from God? There is no passage saying, you have to sacrifice everything if God wants to. That wouldn't be necessary. The point taken from Abraham was clear enough.

    Take the Christian radio host Paul Edwards for instance, who tried to justify the Iraq war, with the annihilation of the Amalakites by the Christian God. The very fact that Paul Edwards (understandably as a Christian I have to say) reads the Bible as the timeless guide of life, gives the annihilation of the Amalakites, not only a historical (or even allegorical) value, but also as a guideline for present conflicts. Who is to tell him that his interpretation is wrong? That is it ungodly?

    So there is no case of "misusing" religion here. There is a case of acting on Biblical injunctions (injuntions who are completely open to interpretations of ones own liking, just like the Quran). So when a Muslim is a tad too religious, the "kill them wherever you find them" passage is a real life and timeless commandment for the here and now. When the regular Muslim comes across this, it is a single reference to a unique historical case, when the Muslims where a couple of hundred (not the present 1,6 billion tally) strong and used all means to survive oppression and annihilation. Another Muslim would tell you that the passage is timeless, but refers only to killing real oppressors and killers who haunt you for your religion.

    There are no wrong interpretation here. All of these are sound conclusions from vague divine words. The problem here, is a God who claims to be perfect and moral and then annihilates cities for homosexuality. That I find extremely dangerous. Just as dangerous as the direct order. It forwards the same type of behavior.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #47 - February 24, 2013, 12:13 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on February 24, 2013, 11:31 AM
    Would you prefer to live in a Muslim-majority society or a Christian-majority one?


    Your question is a bit vague here.

    I'd prefer living in Tirana over Moscow, for example. The first society, a Muslim majority but under a godless constitution. The second society a Christian Orthodox one, enforcing blasphemy laws. If religion was the only parameter here, Id also much rather live in Kuala Lumpur rather than Utah, USA. In Vermont over Mecca etc.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #48 - February 24, 2013, 02:08 PM
    @Alethia
    But if you keep assuming I'm disagreeing with you on the human rights thing (and insinuating that I'm suggesting a correlation between being a "democracy" and human rights records) then you'll keep telling me I'm missing the point and we'll go in circles.
     The reason I made reference to those countries is to say exactly the same thing, that you can be called a democracy and have a shit record on human rights, and zero freedom (expression, press etc). Can you see that?

    Quote
    My point is that basic human rights and Islam (even in its most diluted forms) cannot coexist, which is not the case with Christianity.


    I agree about Islam and human rights, naturally. With Xianity, once again, it depends on liberalism and separation of church and state.

    Quote
    Also, there are a few Muslim countries where apostasy carries the death sentence and apostates are persecuted in most Muslim countries. The same cannot be said for Christian countries.


    Is arresting gays much different? I mean, sure, one gets to live, the other spends time in jail (14 years for being gay in Uganda) - but punishment for personal choices comes down to the same concept. Both Christian and Muslim countries engage in this.
    As billy said, Christian institutions go out kicking and screaming - the Ugandan "kill the gays" bill probably wont make it because of international condemnation only.


    To your question: An Islamic country based on Islamic culture and laws? absolutely NOT:/ From wearing a niqab, abayas just to cross the road, getting jailed all in 4 years, I'd absolutely hate it.
    I've searched for work in Malaysia though, it's different from say Kuwait (where I had the worst experience in my whole life). 
    Christian majority 3rd world non liberal country, same answer as above!
    A Muslim/Christian/FSM majority country based on liberalism, yep! I'd be happy to live there!

     Liberalism/focus on the individual has *everything* to do with it. Add democracy to that, and we have a recipe for a free state - pick your economic system, etc.

    Unfortunately there aren't too many Islamic models of democracy based on liberalism - especially not where the bulk of the Muslim world is - no concept of separation of church and state.
    That said, it doesn't mean it isn't possible in other places.
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Re: Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #49 - February 24, 2013, 03:02 PM
    Quote from: Minimow on February 24, 2013, 12:05 PM
    This all seems semantic to me. Again, I can site the old testament (with plenty of references to punishment for homosexuality). But when the Christian God wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah for its sexual lewdness (read homosexuality) it forwards a precedent. It sends a message. Isn't it clear how Christians (and Muslims) take a moral point from how willingly Abraham intended to kill his son, on order from God? There is no passage saying, you have to sacrifice everything if God wants to. That wouldn't be necessary. The point taken from Abraham was clear enough.


    As I said, God wanted homosexuals dead in Old Testament times (by the hands of the believers). That does not apply for Christianity today. Mainstream Christian theology doesn't consider those laws binding. If you can point to any sect of Islam that is mainstream and doesn't believe in the implementation of Sharia law, I'd love to hear it.

    There will still be some Christians who think those laws apply (like Christian dominionsts) but it's not likely they'll become dominant.

    Quote from: Minimow on February 24, 2013, 12:05 PM
    Take the Christian radio host Paul Edwards for instance, who tried to justify the Iraq war, with the annihilation of the Amalakites by the Christian God. The very fact that Paul Edwards (understandably as a Christian I have to say) reads the Bible as the timeless guide of life, gives the annihilation of the Amalakites, not only a historical (or even allegorical) value, but also as a guideline for present conflicts. Who is to tell him that his interpretation is wrong? That is it ungodly?


    Even if he personally interprets it that way (which is a stretch), how much mainstream support will his interpretation have?

    Quote from: Minimow on February 24, 2013, 12:05 PM
    So there is no case of "misusing" religion here. There is a case of acting on Biblical injunctions (injuntions who are completely open to interpretations of ones own liking, just like the Quran). So when a Muslim is a tad too religious, the "kill them wherever you find them" passage is a real life and timeless commandment for the here and now. When the regular Muslim comes across this, it is a single reference to a unique historical case, when the Muslims where a couple of hundred (not the present 1,6 billion tally) strong and used all means to survive oppression and annihilation. Another Muslim would tell you that the passage is timeless, but refers only to killing real oppressors and killers who haunt you for your religion.

    There are no wrong interpretation here. All of these are sound conclusions from vague divine words. The problem here, is a God who claims to be perfect and moral and then annihilates cities for homosexuality. That I find extremely dangerous. Just as dangerous as the direct order. It forwards the same type of behavior.


    It might be dangerous in that it fuels prejudices, but It's not "just as dangerous", that's the thing about Christian morality. God seems to be held up to a completely different standard. They say for example only God can "take life" because he gave it, while humans may not. (well except for a direct order anyway) So Christians aren't actually supposed to emulate God.

    Take for example Romans 12:19: "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." This seems to endorse a live and let live attitude.

    And of course I know moderate Muslims will point to their favorite (Surah 109) but that's superseded by the later less tolerant verses like those in Surah 9. Christianity seems to be the opposite with Jesus' ideas superseding the more violent OT content.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #50 - February 24, 2013, 03:12 PM
    So basically, DogmasDemise, you owe this flowery version of Christianity to the devil called secularism that works round the clock to keep the fundies at bay.
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #51 - February 24, 2013, 03:50 PM
    @DogmasDemise

    By now your are using too clouded terms for me to answer your post. What do you mean with "mainstream Christian theology"? And what's up with cherry-picking verses?

    Fact is that Christians and powerful Christian institutions (The Vatican and the Orthodoxy to name some) have up til our very recent history, committed genocides and massacres, motivated and sheltered war criminals and thugs as a direct consequence of their belief in Christianity. As a direct consequence of the yearning for religious purity and expansionism that has become the hallmark of the Christian God.

    You can try to modify this as neatly and apologetically as you want. The crimes of Christianity are out there for all to see. So is Islam's as well.

    Edit: Your logic here anyway is as follows: When Muslims commit religious crimes, it is because of direct Quranic injunctions. When Christians do the same, it is because they where bad human beings anyway. It kind of reminds me of the logic used by the staunchest religious apologetics. Those who will look you in the face and tell you that there are no such thing as a bad Muslim/bad Christian, but only bad human beings. Cornering up, self-pitying, cherry-picking bullshit I call that.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #52 - February 25, 2013, 04:50 AM
    Quote from: Jila on February 24, 2013, 03:12 PM
    So basically, DogmasDemise, you owe this flowery version of Christianity to the devil called secularism that works round the clock to keep the fundies at bay.



    Yes, but the point is that mainstream Christianity isn't theocratic (hence it is possible to drag it, albeit kicking and screaming in some instances, to secularism) while all 4 mainstream schools of Islam are theocratic and call for death of adulterers, homosexuals, etc and chopping off the hands of thieves. Islam's literalism and heavily theocratic/legalistic nature makes it worse than Christianity. 

    As for the Ugandan "kill the gays" bill, it's pretty easy for Christians to point to the commandment of "thou shalt not kill" (which has no counterpart in Islam btw) and reject the notion of executing homosexuals; there are no known cases of Jesus personally executing homosexuals or commanding that they be executed, meanwhile in Islam we have a couple of ahadith where Mo says homosexuals and cross-dressers are to be killed/ostracised and we have Ali and Abu Bakr personally having homosexuals killed.  Not to mention there are relatively mainstream Christian denominations that are accepting of homosexuals, and Christian-majority countries with same-sex marriage/legally recognised civil partnerships. The same cannot be said for Islam or predominantly Muslim countries.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #53 - February 26, 2013, 02:34 AM
    Can someone summarize what the argument is about please, why not simply agree that xianity is better?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #54 - February 26, 2013, 02:45 AM
    We're gonna start making cliff notes for every thread so that Alex doesn't have to be bothered by reading through them. lol.
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #55 - February 26, 2013, 05:37 PM
    I always say the religion is what the people make of it. We can spend all day comparing all the horrible insane things in the Bible, but the point is most Christians completely ignore it and do not act on it and there are more secular Christian countries than Islamic ones that put more focus on, technology, education, science and art. Any Muslims that are fed up with violence in their home country, corruption, laws have long left their home countries to take solace in Christian/ Atheist majority countries, because those are more stable. Not perfect, 'but stable'

    No one is denying Christians are guilt free from horrible acts, we're comparing it to the number of horrible acts committed by Muslims on a global scale on a yearly, monthly, weekly, daily basis, not narrowing down on one particular country or event.  Justified by religion. not by simply, greed, malice, power, or revenge.
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #56 - February 27, 2013, 03:00 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 26, 2013, 02:45 AM
    We're gonna start making cliff notes for every thread so that Alex doesn't have to be bothered by reading through them. lol.


    OMG! That would be sooo helpful, HM! Thank you!!!

     far away hug
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Christianity equal to Islam?
     Reply #57 - March 11, 2013, 05:44 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 22, 2013, 03:11 PM
    Christianity is bad, but for different reasons than Islam IMHO. While Islam plays directly on people’s fears and lets them know that they are worthless in the sight of God, Christianity plays on people’s need to be loved. In some ways, I find that more disturbing. Christianity is kind of like that manipulative boyfriend who keeps his girlfriend hooked through false displays of love and mind games—playing on her insecurities. The addiction is stronger because the followers get this “love high” that they actually crave and want more of. They are willing to part with their reason and their money to keep the drug coming.


    As an ex-Christian I can comment on some of this stuff. Yeah you're right happymurtad, Christianity plays on your need to be loved. It is a really sinister game. Christians are told they are not worthy and nothing they ever do will be good enough for god and thats why they need Jesus for salvation. Christians really drive that point home that people are born into sin, they are sinners from birth and they indoctrinate their children into this line of thinking. You can read about it here, its disgusting there are 5 pages of this http://goodnewsclubs.info/abusiveshame.htm

    Christianity on its surface does play on your need to be loved but its crafty because it too also plays on your fear. I remember as a Christian, especially when I was losing my faith, I was very afraid. I can't count the number of times I prayed for forgiveness and "recommitted" myself to Christ. This became a regular occurrence, almost an every night thing. There is a lot of fear in Christianity, a lot of shame too. I was afraid the questions I was asking were going to damn me to hell for eternity. Many Christians try to suppress scientific knowledge. I was raised in the church and for a long time I was actually a creationist. I actually remember as a small child when my mother couldn't afford to send me to Christian school anymore I told her I didn't want to go to public school because I didn't want to learn about evolution. Even as an 8 year old child, it was already ingrained in my head that evolution was bad and evil. Ironically this theory played a role in my eventual liberation haha.
    "Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal." - Carl Sagan
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