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 Topic: Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss

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  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #90 - March 10, 2013, 08:15 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 10, 2013, 07:45 PM
    NO you guys!! Allah subhaanahu wa ta'ala already thought about that problem and, through his infinite wisdom, came up with a solution. The sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were born in sets of twins. The twins could not marry each other, they could only marry from the other sets of twins. That makes it not incest. Duh!! Silly Murtads

     

    I remember when i read about the sets of twin part I thought man the author seems to be trying too hard to make it not seem like incest while still trying to stick to the same story.

     Cheesy
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #91 - March 10, 2013, 09:34 PM
    Quote from: redriding on March 10, 2013, 06:43 AM
    ^Tell me about it. Those two points (Mo's obvious sexual depravity; plus him going to bed with his adopted son's wife, allowing his men to RAPE female captives of war, and a myriad of other abuses Smiley) came to mind.

    I don't see why it's so HARD TO LEARN A THING OR TWO ABOUT ISLAM BEFORE GOING INTO A DEBATE. You're not debating a Buddhist, nor a Christian - Islam has that extra paranoid dimension, that irritating "we invented everything / scientific miracles" complex. I mean, c'mon. I'm so sick of slippery Hamza deploying his metaphysical BS on unprepared intellectuals - someone pls call him out on it!

    His debate against Pervez Hoodbhoy was such a catastrophe (on H's part) simply because he couldn't play the BS game.

    I really think CEMB needs to send in the heavy artillery. Pls, Hamza, debate someone who knows a thing or two about Islam.

    All the scientific knowledge in the world won't help you against Hamza; he's a pseudo-scientist. Unless you can call him out on his buzz-word BS (master of stringing meaningless gibberish together) you might as well save yourself the effort - DON'T FEED THE TROLL 

    Quote from: RecRoom on March 10, 2013, 07:38 PM
    That's kind of the thing. If incest was actually such a big point of contention, the easiest thing in the world would have been to bring up adam and eve. The end.

    If Krauss didn't pull out that fast ball it's a big fail on his part and shows he didn't really know the opposition at all

    Gotta agree with these two posts. If you're going to take these clowns on, you have to be prepared for the fact that they will  try to pull a fast one on you. They aren't the slightest bit interested in an honest and equal exchange of opinions, because they know they don't stand a snowball's chance in hell that way. So, they will always, that means always, try to trip you and and entangle you with words. Basically, they are playing gutter politics. If you are not prepared for that, do yourself a favour and spend the day on more rewarding activities.

    ETA: Oh and seeing Tortoise up against WC would be hilarious, as long as the concentrated mass of bullshit didn't create a black hole and wipe out the solar system.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #92 - March 10, 2013, 09:49 PM
    i found hamza's summary of the debate on the exmuslim reddit.
    http://www.facebook.com/HamzaAndreasTzortzis/posts/580338305309941

    it is pretty interesting how he veiwed the debate. His rhetoric is really quite repetitive and still keeps spouting crap about the literary miracle.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #93 - March 10, 2013, 10:28 PM
    I haven't watched the debate but what is the use, I am sure Hamza won the debate, I don't think Krauss should debate on the subject on the subject of God and Morality and all that shit like that, he doesn't know much about phlosophy so what is the use.

    I wrote him a letter warning him about everything that got brought up in the ebate, about KCA, miracles and all that stuff, I guess I just wasted my time for nothing.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #94 - March 10, 2013, 10:55 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 10, 2013, 09:34 PM

    ETA: Oh and seeing Tortoise up against WC would be hilarious, as long as the concentrated mass of bullshit didn't create a black hole and wipe out the solar system.


    heh.
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #95 - March 10, 2013, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 10, 2013, 09:34 PM
    ETA: Oh and seeing Tortoise up against WC would be hilarious, as long as the concentrated mass of bullshit didn't create a black hole and wipe out the solar system.

    I don't agree. I mean, if the concentrated mass of bullshit create a black hole and wipe out the solar system, it would be even more hilarious.
    Humanity, the only species whose stupidity is powerful enough to create black holes ! You have to be pretty intelligent to be that stupid !
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #96 - March 10, 2013, 11:05 PM
    Quote from: sturmgewehr on March 10, 2013, 10:28 PM
    I haven't watched the debate but what is the use, I am sure Hamza won the debate, I don't think Krauss should debate on the subject on the subject of God and Morality and all that shit like that, he doesn't know much about phlosophy so what is the use.

    I wrote him a letter warning him about everything that got brought up in the ebate, about KCA, miracles and all that stuff, I guess I just wasted my time for nothing.

    Quote from: e-raja on March 10, 2013, 09:49 PM
    i found hamza's summary of the debate on the exmuslim reddit.
    http://www.facebook.com/HamzaAndreasTzortzis/posts/580338305309941

    it is pretty interesting how he veiwed the debate. His rhetoric is really quite repetitive and still keeps spouting crap about the literary miracle.


    It's exactly what I expected. Although I'm sure hammy is embellishing his victory in this summary, a few things jumped out regarding Krauss' performance. Admitting to not reading up about islamic law and brushing off the 'literary miracle' bs is not good. There are definitely answers that Krauss could have had precanned for each one of these which would have made hammy look dumb.

    As for moral ground, I wonder if he brought up the gender segregation as something that fits into islams 'moral objectivity'. Stuff like that along with incest and bringing up adam and eve should have been no brainers.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #97 - March 10, 2013, 11:16 PM
    Dawkins is not a happy  bunny

    http://www.richarddawkins.net/foundation_articles/2013/3/10/sexual-apartheid-in-university-college-london
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #98 - March 10, 2013, 11:26 PM
    I found this pretty funny. Tortoise got Krauss's twitter username wrong and called some random woman a liar.



    she does look like a liar
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #99 - March 10, 2013, 11:31 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 10, 2013, 09:34 PM
    Gotta agree with these two posts. If you're going to take these clowns on, you have to be prepared for the fact that they will  try to pull a fast one on you. They aren't the slightest bit interested in an honest and equal exchange of opinions, because they know they don't stand a snowball's chance in hell that way. So, they will always, that means always, try to trip you and and entangle you with words. Basically, they are playing gutter politics. If you are not prepared for that, do yourself a favour and spend the day on more rewarding activities.

    ETA: Oh and seeing Tortoise up against WC would be hilarious, as long as the concentrated mass of bullshit didn't create a black hole and wipe out the solar system.

     


    Methinks if Happy Murtad or Hassan were to debate Hamza Tzortzis on Islam and the Quran they would wipe the floor with him before breakfast.

    They both know just as much if not more about Islamic theology then Hamza AND both of them are fluent in arabic and know the arabic of the Quran as well.

    Oh how bad I want to see a tag team debate with Hassan and Happy Murtad vs Hamza and anyone he chooses

    He will have no place to hide.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #100 - March 10, 2013, 11:38 PM
    Folks! new user here.

    My twitter has been suspended twice over the last 36 hours because of systematic block/spam attacks by muslim bigots. I have appealed and hopefully will get them restored. I was responding to tweets on #IslamOrAtheism

    This is the level of their sleaziness. Cowards would attack Lawrence Krauss cz he doesn't know much about Islam. But when some ex-muslim starts exposing their dirty secrets they gang up to censor it.

    Just wanted to let you know.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #101 - March 10, 2013, 11:47 PM
    When you watch this debate, drink everytime Hamza says "clutching at intellectual straws" or "mumbo jumbo"
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #102 - March 10, 2013, 11:49 PM
    Quote
    3. The Professor did not know the difference between the qualitative and quantitative infinite. I used a deductive argument to show that the universe began, and therefore was preceded by its non-existence. The deductive argument I used can be summarised in the following way:

    i. An actual infinite cannot exist
    ii. An infinite history of past events is an actual infinite
    iii. Therefore, an infinite history of past events cannot exist
    iv. Therefore, the universe is finite
    v. Therefore, it had a beginning

    I argued that this deductive argument is based on the quantitative infinite not the qualitative one. Professor Krauss used the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter to try and show that the actual infinite exists. I responded by saying that he just described the qualitative infinite, not the quantitative infinite. For example you can actually measure the diameter and the circumference, and the ratio he referred to is qualitative, in other words it is not based on discrete parts you can quantify. A ratio is a relationship between two numbers, the fact that it is a relationship highlights its qualitative nature. Professor Krauss change the subject when I explained this to him.

    http://www.facebook.com/HamzaAndreasTzortzis/posts/580338305309941

    Hamza says that an actual infinite can not exist, I was wondering whether this includes GOD, as a number of his attributes are infinite. So by his very own deductive reasoning that God does not exist Roll Eyes

    i. An actual infinite cannot exist
    ii. Gods length of existance is an actual infinite
    iii. Therefore, an infinite God can not exist
    iv. Therefore, the God is finite
    v. Therefore, it had a beginning

    So the question begs what caused this God, if everything that begins has a cause, then this mean a infinite regress occurs, but those can't exist, therefore God does not exist.
    This is just a quick summary of how i understand this argument. Is my reasoning valid? Corrections would be appreciated.

    This is the first time I've come across this infinity argument. Anyone got any useful info on this sort of apologetics.

    Quote from: dr_sloth on March 10, 2013, 11:26 PM
    I found this pretty funny. Tortoise got Krauss's twitter username wrong and called some random woman a liar.

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    she does look like a liar


     Cheesy
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #103 - March 10, 2013, 11:49 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 10, 2013, 11:31 PM



    Methinks if Happy Murtad or Hassan were to debate Hamza Tzortzis on Islam and the Quran they would wipe the floor with him before breakfast.

    They both know just as much if not more about Islamic theology then Hamza AND both of them are fluent in arabic and know the arabic of the Quran as well.

    Oh how bad I want to see a tag team debate with Hassan and Happy Murtad vs Hamza and anyone he chooses

    He will have no place to hide.

    I think you'll enjoy this. I watched this on live stream, IIRC it was amusing watching Hamza Tzortzis squirming.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE2tFb0IsIs

    Need more of this kind of thing. People systematically dissecting each of his arguments and calling him out on his bullshit.
    Join us on chat. Click here.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #104 - March 11, 2013, 12:08 AM
    Quote from: e-raja on March 10, 2013, 11:49 PM
    Hamza says that an actual infinite can not exist, I was wondering whether this includes GOD, as a number of his attributes are infinite. So by his very own deductive reasoning that God does not exist Roll Eyes



    basically, the standard excuse by any idiot (Hamza included obviously), using this argument is that the infinite cannot exist in the universe. god is outside the universe and therefore doesnt have this limitation.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #105 - March 11, 2013, 12:14 AM
    Quote
    basically, the standard excuse by any idiot (Hamza included obviously), using Kalam is that the infinite cannot exist in the universe. god is outside the universe and therefore doesnt have this limitation.


    They believe in miracles, how on earth can they say God is not part of this universe if he is actively sending signs and miracles. Wouldn't any interaction of God with this universe have him bound by it's rules of infinites.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #106 - March 11, 2013, 12:20 AM
    how dare you apply the rules of the created to the creator!!!!!!!

    AAAAAHHHHH!
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #107 - March 11, 2013, 12:21 AM
    He seems to be using special pleading there.

    Hamza seems to have a very primitive understanding of the world. People like that tend to get stuck on the discussion of existence/nonexistence, beginning of the universe, etc. They basically are using induction from there experience here on earth as an axiom to apply to very complex problems. To them, magic is the only means for the world being here. And furthermore, that the supposed order we see has to be a result of a consciousness. Therefore, a magic conciseness created the world IE god.

    That's where the arrogance is coming from. People like hamza think their line of reasoning is the only logical position when in reality, they're just applying haphazard deduction to a very nuanced topic.

    And as eraja said, their very line of reasoning self defeats their position
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #108 - March 11, 2013, 12:22 AM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on March 11, 2013, 12:08 AM
    basically, the standard excuse by any idiot (Hamza included obviously), using this argument is that the infinite cannot exist in the universe. god is outside the universe and therefore doesnt have this limitation.


    buddy, the moron doesn't have anywhere to go no matter what fallacy he pulls out of his ass:

    He is using impossibility-of-infinity to justify impossibility of infinite regress of causes of universe. But once he has suspended the restriction to outside of universe, he has lost his argument too. Then infinite regress is also a possibility.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #109 - March 11, 2013, 12:24 AM
    and don't forget to do a linguistic grammatical anaylsis on the word 'infinite'. You may out that actually, it means whatever the fuck you  want it to. alhamdulilah
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #110 - March 11, 2013, 12:30 AM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on March 11, 2013, 12:20 AM
    how dare you apply the rules of the created to the creator!!!!!!!

    AAAAAHHHHH!


     Cry If only the muslims could explain the nature of this God more clearly whistling2

    Quote
    He seems to be using special pleading there.


    Ye pretty much, one of  the main tools of hamza's rhetoric

    Quote from: lojamole on March 11, 2013, 12:22 AM
    buddy, the moron doesn't have anywhere to go no matter what fallacy he pulls out of his ass:

    He is using impossibility-of-infinity to justify impossibility of infinite regress of causes of universe. But once he has suspended the restriction to outside of universe, he has lost his argument too. Then infinite regress is also a possibility.


    Great point mate. Never noticed that cheers.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #111 - March 11, 2013, 12:40 AM
    Oh FFS, not this childish rubbish again.

    Quote
    i. An actual infinite cannot exist
    ii. An infinite history of past events is an actual infinite
    iii. Therefore, an infinite history of past events cannot exist
    iv. Therefore, the universe is finite
    v. Therefore, it had a beginning


    i. Prove that assertion.

    You can't prove it? Well then, everything else you said is irrelevant. End of discussion.

    Seriously, this kalam crap is so easy to shoot down. It fails on its first assertion, because there is simply no way of proving that assertion. Kalam doesn't even manage to get started, unless the audience is totally blind to its obvious and glaring flaw.

    Also, if debating an Islamic apologist, you can turn it into a double whammy. Not only does it fail on its first assertion, but even it if didn't that first assertion is the speaker setting their own arbitrary limits of Allah's power.

    The person claiming this supposedly believes, as a fundamental article of faith, that Allah can do anything Allah wants to do. If Allah wants an actual infinite, he'll have one before breakfast, with cherries on top. Who is Tortoise to say that Allah is incapable of creating what he wishes?

    Tortoise's first assertion in his argument is, by his own standards, heretical.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #112 - March 11, 2013, 12:57 AM
    Honestly, any one of you guys would fare better in a debate against Hamza, rather than krauss.
    I love you all.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #113 - March 11, 2013, 01:08 AM
    @Kutta

    That's the thing. TheRationalizer was going to debate hamza but hamza didn't proceed. Instead he got a guy who never read the quran, hadiths, history of islam.

    That's why my opinion for Krauss dropped immensely here. He basically rewarded hamza for not going against someone who had knowledge.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #114 - March 11, 2013, 01:10 AM
    I wouldn't say my opinion of Krauss has dropped. He's a good physicist and, AFAICT, a nice bloke. He's just not good at dealing with slippery buggers, and pretty much walked into this with his eyes closed. 
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #115 - March 11, 2013, 01:12 AM
    Not streetwise enough
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #116 - March 11, 2013, 01:12 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 11, 2013, 12:40 AM
    Oh FFS, not this childish rubbish again.

    i. Prove that assertion.

    You can't prove it? Well then, everything else you said is irrelevant. End of discussion.

    Seriously, this kalam crap is so easy to shoot down. It fails on its first assertion, because there is simply no way of proving that assertion. Kalam doesn't even manage to get started, unless the audience is totally blind to its obvious and glaring flaw.

    Also, if debating an Islamic apologist, you can turn it into a double whammy. Not only does it fail on its first assertion, but even it if didn't that first assertion is the speaker setting their own arbitrary limits of Allah's power.

    The person claiming this supposedly believes, as a fundamental article of faith, that Allah can do anything Allah wants to do. If Allah wants an actual infinite, he'll have one before breakfast, with cherries on top. Who is Tortoise to say that Allah is incapable of creating what he wishes?

    Tortoise's first assertion in his argument is, by his own standards, heretical.

     

    The problem with the kalam I have is that it uses every day intuitions to describe the beginning of the universe.

    I mean physicists use complex mathematical equations to describe phenomenon in the universe and often time even  those go very strongly against our intuition.

    Case in point: Quantum Mechanics.  It is complex as fuck that noone can get an intuitive grasp of it.

    If scientists are struggling to figure out the beginnings of the universe even while using mathematics what makes people think they can just jump into that debate with their simple intutions such as " everything that begins to exists has a cause.. etc"

    I mean it's just so ridiculous....
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #117 - March 11, 2013, 01:16 AM
    Yup. Kalam is just a kindergarten-level story masquerading as high fallutin' philosophy.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #118 - March 11, 2013, 01:16 AM
    I do quite like the way Krauss was so dismissive of Hamza's whole argument.
    I think it is quite a good way to do it.
    Unless you are going to tear Hamza's argument apart line by line (which I personally would do), the only other thing to do is summarise it as utter bullshit and ignore it. If Krauss responded with somewhere in between, that would probably have been just where Tzortzis wanted him.

    You can't really tackle a half baked argument, in a half baked way.
    Expecting Krauss to have wasted his time researching Hamza's shit is I think, asking a bit much of an actual scientist, with actual proper things to do.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #119 - March 11, 2013, 01:17 AM
    Hamza isn't that slippery. You just have to have knowledge of the topic. That's why my opinion of krauss dropped, he went in without knowledge. It's the same as dan barker (american atheists president or something) who debated hamza. He didn't know a thing about islam even stating so in the beginning of the 'discussion'

    I'm sick of these guys giving iera and co a platform to stand on and shit their propaganda unabated. Enough is enough
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