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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss

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  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #120 - March 11, 2013, 01:40 AM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on March 10, 2013, 11:26 PM
    I found this pretty funny. Tortoise got Krauss's twitter username wrong and called some random woman a liar.

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    she does look like a liar


    *spits milk out*
     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #121 - March 11, 2013, 02:24 AM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YKrLab0IWg

    Let me add this.....on Islamic interaction of Lawrence Krauss .,  A debate between  dr. Krauss & Uthman Badar | ANU, April 2012....

    That is a HitchSlap Start...............
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #122 - March 11, 2013, 03:38 AM
    So my question and challenge to us all is lets shame Hamza into an debate with ex muslims, if we are the only ones that can do it, then lets do it for the good of the frigging universe.   Lets hit the internet and and post our challenge to him.  Is there anyone comfortable with being out that could do this?  I mean there is only soo many times he can run away from a fight before he looks like a chump!

    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #123 - March 11, 2013, 03:49 AM
    TheRationalizer has been getting Hamza to debate him for months now and he's just been ignoring him.

    Hamza wants publicity so he won't debate some random person.

    IF we want an ex muslim to debate Hamza, CEMB will have to back up the debater and he will need to be promoted as an official member of the " Council of Ex-Muslims Britain"

    I think Hassan would be the ideal ex muslim for the job but I doubt he would be willing to do a public debate. Someone will have to message him to ask.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #124 - March 11, 2013, 05:47 AM
    Can someone please save this Dawah Man video and mirror it? It's so fucking bad its beautiful! Lol. He really "bang banged" himself in the foot with this one!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQNm77GS7b4
    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #125 - March 11, 2013, 07:06 AM
    The only reason I am out of this religion is by watching uncomfortable debates and the more Islam specifically is called into question the better for future generations.

    Ok how do we get them involved (CEMB)? Are they willing? is Hassan willing?  Is the Rationalizer an ex Muslim?  Maybe we should bribe the bearded fug with some initial money to debate.  Maybe his stomach will come before his coward heart.

    Ramen!


     
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #126 - March 11, 2013, 09:24 AM
    it won't work. It will simply give Hamza an even bigger head.
    He should be crawling on his knees for a debate with theRationalizer, and personally, I would demand it as a stipulation.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #127 - March 11, 2013, 11:06 AM
    That is a debate I really want to see. The jinn and tonic show panel vs the boys of IERA.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #128 - March 11, 2013, 11:33 AM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on March 11, 2013, 12:08 AM
    basically, the standard excuse by any idiot (Hamza included obviously), using this argument is that the infinite cannot exist in the universe. god is outside the universe and therefore doesnt have this limitation.


    Yeah but that depends what u mean by the word Universe, does Universe in this came means Existance or only our 4D time/space universe??

    If u mean only our 4D universe then I was reading a paper by a Philosopher recently which debates this and then if u mean existence it is quite clear that actual infinites do exist in existence if God is real he must be part of Existence thus he is infinite thus infinites do exist and if u say they don't then God can't exist either.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #129 - March 11, 2013, 11:56 AM
    I'm pretty new to philosophy as a whole so I'm still catching up on most arguments.

    Quote
    Yeah but that depends what u mean by the word Universe, does Universe in this came means Existance or only our 4D time/space universe??

    If u mean only our 4D universe then I was reading a paper by a Philosopher recently which debates this and then if u mean existence it is quite clear that actual infinites do exist in existence if God is real he must be part of Existence thus he is infinite thus infinites do exist and if u say they don't then God can't exist either.


    It does depend on how they define existence. If the universe=existence then their argument falls apart as God would and has to be included, unless they are brave enough to say God exists outside of existance. Which would really be a stupid thing to say. Then again God is capable of anything according to Muslims.

    If this universe is seen as product of a wider universe of existence then the Muslim argument of infinites would still break down. As it is still possible with God.

    I think a key area to expose IERA is to ask them to elaborate on the definitions they are using, I seen it done by Professer hoodbhoy against Hamza and it worked like a charm.

    As osmanthus put it, the whole argument fails on the first premise, as it is unsupported and can not be proven.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #130 - March 11, 2013, 12:20 PM
    Quote
    I think a key area to expose IERA is to ask them to elaborate on the definitions they are using, I seen it done by Professer hoodbhoy against Hamza and it worked like a charm.


    I am paritcularly keen to see Hamza try to justify his (William Lane Craig's) definition of 'miracle': "events which lie outside the productive capacity of nature"

    Hamza Lane Craig argues that the dictionary definition of miracle, "a violation of natural law " ,  is no good because it is too easy to simply change our understanding of natural law in order to accommodate an otherwise miraculous event. So I would like to know exactly how 'the productive capacity of nature' can be defined in such a way that resolves this problem.

    Since it was his own argument, possibly WLC would be able to conjure up some poor justification for this definition. I very much doubt that Hammy could do it.

    People like Hamza need to be stopped dead in their tracks before they get off the ground. Literally every statement he makes has at least one huge problem. The timed debate format is perfect for him to get away with huge amounts of undefined, undefinable, meaningless drivel.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #131 - March 11, 2013, 12:32 PM
    @e-Raja :

    If the universe = existence then yes their argument falls apart but I have been thinking lately about creation ex Nihilo.

    it goes like this:

    They say God created the universe out of Nothing so now, we all know what a theist like WLC or HLC means when he says nothing, Nothing = absence of everything.

    1. Nothing existed
    2. If nothing existed Something or anything couldn't have existed.
    3. God is something ( an entity, disembodied mind etc..)
    4. If God is something then God couldn't have existed when the universe was created since there was nothing before it.


    I think what this means is that God can't have created the universe ex Nihilo because if Nothing exists something can't exist and God is something thus this makes the whole ex nihilo creation of the universe by God absurd unless god is nothing then nothing could have existed in nothing and acted upon nothing but it would have resulted in nothing.

    If God exists outside existence that means God exists inside Existence as well, this is the Rusell's paradox I think:

    Quote
    According to naive set theory, any definable collection is a set. Let R be the set of all sets that are not members of themselves. If R qualifies as a member of itself, it would contradict its own definition as a set containing all sets that are not members of themselves. On the other hand, if such a set is not a member of itself, it would qualify as a member of itself by the same definition. This contradiction is Russell's paradox. Symbolically:

    (Clicky for piccy!)


  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #132 - March 11, 2013, 12:36 PM
    A comment left on http://standforpeace.org.uk/walkout-in-ucl-over-gender-segregation-at-iera-event/#comment-218 just cause my blood was a bit warmer today, bloody sun has this effect on me.  whistling2

    Quote
    Salahuddin   · March 11, 2013 Reply

    Its a shame that a couple of uncivilised disrespectful men had to disrupt an otherwise amazing well organised event.

    Clearly this was a pre-planned tactic to divert attention away from the actual outcome of the debate.

    Men forcing themselves upon women yesterday and promoting incest
    between a brother and sister. Whats next Krauss? Genderless toilets? Its
    very clear that Islam is based upon Moral guidance and more beneficial
    to Human Society and Atheism is degrading our society as can clearly be
    seen by the moral decline of the west over the last 100 years. Clearly
    Islam is more sensible.
    Toyer (South Africa)   · March 11, 2013 Reply

    @Salahuddin Yet Religion is founded on Incest, in a religious view point you would not be here were it not for incest, that makes Islam a lot more sensible, Laa Ghoula habibi. Beating wives and stoning adulterers a lot more sensible, walking around a black stone like the pre-arab pagans much more sensible, Free will according to your Rabb is more sensible because it is outside our realm of understanding, Yes Habibi, Krauss is so morally corrupt because he agrees that in certain cases incest is ok, yet I have never read a book that breaks more moral codes than the Qu’ran, Bible and torah combined, have sex with slaves, kill woman and children, let males suckle from teats, have sex with 9 year olds, yes indeed Allahu Akbar, all I have to say is Laa Illaaha ….. There is No God …. jazaakalaah

  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #133 - March 11, 2013, 12:53 PM
    sturmgewehr, I see where you are coming. Funny enough they had problems with krauss' definition of nothing, when their own definition of nothing makes it impossible for anything to occur.
    Also the set example pretty much sums up why I think any apologist defining God pretty much emphasises God as a contradiction.

    Quote
    Hamza Lane Craig argues that the dictionary definition of miracle, "a violation of natural law " ,  is no good because it is too easy to simply change our understanding of natural law in order to accommodate an otherwise miraculous event. So I would like to know exactly how 'the productive capacity of nature' can be defined in such a way that resolves this problem.


    He can't. His definition of a miracle is very misleading. If the event was beyond the productive capacity of nature then it would- by his definition- be impossible to manifest in nature. Because if the miracle does supposedly manisfest in nature then it not outside the productive capacity of nature, as it has occured in nature.

    by nature I mean this reality/universe.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #134 - March 11, 2013, 02:06 PM
    @sturm but the problem with that is, theists could argue that once the existence of god is established, nothing existed before the universe EXCEPT god. Therefore, they could then claim that even though god created the universe from nothing, it doesn't mean that something was created out of nothing, because god was still there.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #135 - March 11, 2013, 02:24 PM
    @ kutta: so what do they mean when they say God created the Universe from nothing??

    I am talking about contemporary apologists who have defined Nothingness very well, I am not talking about apologists who simply say God created the Universe, if there were such apologists then this exonerates them from the critics I just made and thus one can't impugn them for saying that but even in that case, they are simply opening another can of worms.

    My argument specifically refers/applies to people like WLC and HLC who claim God created the Universe from nothing.

    If there was something there, then what did God create the universe from? This makes their Deity superfluous, like for instance the claim God created the Universe ex materia or ex Energy.

    I got nothing against Pantheists for instance or even a Deist who is still left to explain his Deity.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #136 - March 11, 2013, 02:36 PM
    Do we really even need to go this deep into a debate with Muslims? How are any of these arguments unique to only Islam? A Christian or a Jew or even some new age deist could argue the same thing. Every time someone like Hamza tries to take the debate there we should bring it straight back to some of the nonsense Islam claims.

    To me it seems they want to hide and move the debate into areas where specific beliefs and practices of Islam can't be attacked. I think it's a tactic and we need to bring the fight back and strike at their weaknesses.
    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #137 - March 11, 2013, 02:56 PM

    iERA have been banned by University College London from ever using their facilities again

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0313/11032013-meeting

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #138 - March 11, 2013, 03:45 PM
    Obviously UCL know that Islam is the ultimate truth and are trying to hide it. What more proof do you kuffar need?
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #139 - March 11, 2013, 05:00 PM
    @sturm: What they mean by that is that nothing existed (relative to the creator). Because God is perfect and can do anything, He created His creation (i.e. the universe) out of nothing. I agree though, it's still a speculation, and no explanation for God  seems to make sense to me. In my opinion, everyone should just shut the fuck up and admit that we don't know how the universe came to be.

  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #140 - March 11, 2013, 05:02 PM
    Quote from: Pepe on March 11, 2013, 02:36 PM
    To me it seems they want to hide and move the debate into areas where specific beliefs and practices of Islam can't be attacked. I think it's a tactic and we need to bring the fight back and strike at their weaknesses.



    Thank you Pepe. I have never seen a single person debate the actual authentic hadiths or verses that are plain nonsense. I don't blame the muslims though. I blame people like Lawrence Krauss who don't prepare themselves well enough. The title was "ISLAM or ATHEISM", not "THEISM or ATHEISM".
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #141 - March 11, 2013, 05:04 PM
    @sturm: What they mean by that is that nothing existed (relative to the creator). Because God is perfect and can do anything, He created His creation (i.e. the universe) out of nothing. Like a Pop. Saying "Be" and "it is". I agree though, it's still a speculation, and no explanation for God  seems to make sense to me. In my opinion, everyone should just shut the fuck up and admit that we don't know how the universe came to be.

    Fixed it. Smiley
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #142 - March 11, 2013, 05:05 PM
    ^ That wasn't supposed to be a quote. It was supposed to be an edit. If any mod could fix that, I would appreciate it lol.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #143 - March 11, 2013, 06:25 PM
    Quote from: kutta on March 11, 2013, 05:02 PM
    Thank you Pepe. I have never seen a single person debate the actual authentic hadiths or verses that are plain nonsense. I don't blame the muslims though. I blame people like Lawrence Krauss who don't prepare themselves well enough. The title was "ISLAM or ATHEISM", not "THEISM or ATHEISM".


    The problem you have there is they can hide behind interpretation, which they do anyway. To debate this area we would need someone like a former imam/scholar as an authority figure. Otherwise the lay muslim can easily dismiss arguments because they love the appeal to authority. They basically poison the well so to speak and hide behind authority.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #144 - March 11, 2013, 06:27 PM
    Guys can you help my out here? spread the word maybe: http://imgur.com/WlycMRM

    Third account suspended in 2 days. This one didn't last 4 tweets.

    I sent multiple emails to CEMB contact email but I got out of office reply
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #145 - March 11, 2013, 06:30 PM
    Quote
    Guys can you help my out here? spread the word maybe: http://imgur.com/WlycMRM


    No offence but toning down the name calling like scumbag and sleazy may get the point across to muslims more delicately. They are a sensitive bunch afterall Tongue
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #146 - March 11, 2013, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: lojamole on March 11, 2013, 06:27 PM
    No offence but toning down the name calling like scumbag and sleazy may get the point across to muslims more delicately. They are a sensitive bunch afterall


    this issue has more to do with twitter. Why is twitter bending over backwards to cater to muslims. Do they not have any mechanism against targeted suspension attacks?
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #147 - March 11, 2013, 06:44 PM
    Quote from: e-raja on March 11, 2013, 06:25 PM
    The problem you have there is they can hide behind interpretation, which they do anyway. To debate this area we would need someone like a former imam/scholar as an authority figure. Otherwise the lay muslim can easily dismiss arguments because they love the appeal to authority. They basically poison the well so to speak and hide behind authority.


    True. Although it is still a more worthwhile cause and is better than having just a general, and often biased perspective.
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #148 - March 11, 2013, 09:07 PM
    Quote from: e-raja on March 11, 2013, 11:56 AM
    I think a key area to expose IERA is to ask them to elaborate on the definitions they are using, I seen it done by Professer hoodbhoy against Hamza and it worked like a charm.

    No, it isn't. You'll just be playing their game. They already have you suckered.

    It's really simple. Stick to the basics.

    Quote
    As osmanthus put it, the whole argument fails on the first premise, as it is unsupported and can not be proven.

    So why on earth would you want to bother with getting entangled in chasing their definitions of obscure shit?

    Keep it clear. Keep it succinct. The argument fails on the first assertion. That is all you need. How they may or may not define anything after that point is not of any real interest.

    Also, what Pepe said:

    Quote from: Pepe on March 11, 2013, 02:36 PM
    Do we really even need to go this deep into a debate with Muslims? How are any of these arguments unique to only Islam? A Christian or a Jew or even some new age deist could argue the same thing. Every time someone like Hamza tries to take the debate there we should bring it straight back to some of the nonsense Islam claims.

    To me it seems they want to hide and move the debate into areas where specific beliefs and practices of Islam can't be attacked. I think it's a tactic and we need to bring the fight back and strike at their weaknesses.

    Again, don't get tricked into chasing them through rabbit warrens of their own construction. Use a fucking axe. bunny
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Islam or Atheism March 9th Hamza "Schmuck" Tzortis vs Lawrence "The Man" Krauss
     Reply #149 - March 11, 2013, 09:32 PM
    WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH DAWAHMAN?

    sorry, i'm angry.
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