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 Topic: Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence

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  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #30 - March 06, 2013, 07:05 PM
    Thanks guys. I am actually worried sick for my relatives who are stuck there Cry
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #31 - March 06, 2013, 07:05 PM
    Seems to me that the Ahmaddiya are in the most dangerous position though.

    Every ingredient that needs to be in place for a genocide to occur seems to have aligned for that community.

    The state has specific laws targeting and marginalising them. Hatred of them is spoken with impunity. Demonised relentlessly. Militias targetting them. State authorities don't protect them. Widespread grassroots prejudice and hatred of them.


    Bleak.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #32 - March 06, 2013, 07:10 PM
    The state there doesn't even *pretend* to want to protect Ahmadiyyas... they don't even get the lip service that Shias, Christians and Hindus sometimes get.

    The minorities in Pakistan should at least find ways to band together, and ally with level headed/secularist Sunnis.

    But things are such a mess that I don't see that happening.

    People are literally unsure if they'll be alive in an hour.

    Inflation is growing everyday.

    People of all economic classes (except for the very wealthy) have no employment, and even those who are employed are not paid living wages and much of the time, stores and businesses are closed due to terrorist attacks.

    People are committing suicide due to economic reasons - this is not even being reported much.

    When people are in such dire straits, political organizing is not something they can even begin to think about.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #33 - March 06, 2013, 07:11 PM
    And that's saying nothing of the blasphemy law situation which can be used against anyone who stands up for minorities like Salman Taseer did
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #34 - March 06, 2013, 07:12 PM
    Quote from: allat on March 06, 2013, 07:10 PM
    When people are in such dire straits, political organizing is not something they can even begin to think about.


    What is the worst case scenario, and what is the best case scenario for Pakistan in the long term, in your opinion?
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #35 - March 06, 2013, 07:22 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 06, 2013, 07:12 PM
    What is the worst case scenario, and what is the best case scenario for Pakistan in the long term, in your opinion?


    Worst case scenario is what is already happening. The state is virtually powerless and/or apathetic. More and more people own guns there, and have private security guards (the ones who can afford those, of course, the poorer ones who are the majority have less than zero protections).

    Most people just want the military to take over - they figure with tanks on the streets, at least the terrorist attacks will go down. But of course, there are other problems that martial law brings.

    Best case scenario:
    -Instead of sending aid, wealthier countries need to enact a kind of Marshall Plan there. I.e. go in and build free, good quality schools and hospitals. Provide food and housing. The BILLIONS that western countries send to Pakistan are mostly, largely, pocketed by politicians and the wealthiest bureaucrats. The people are still getting fucked even though Pakistan gets a ton of aid. So of course, the religious fundies go in and provide those social services (healthcare, education, food, shelter, employment) that the state should be providing.

    Best case scenario would be if western nations' govts realized that throwing money at just the elites in Pakistan will never solve the problems there but is making things worse.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #36 - March 06, 2013, 07:33 PM
    Thanks allat. Seems to me the elite is a parasite upon the people they're supposed to serve. That happens in almost every society, but it seems much starker in Pakistan.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #37 - March 06, 2013, 07:45 PM
    Yep. Pakistan's elites are the worst kinds of parasites... having looted that country for decades, they tend to send their kids to Western countries to get proper schooling. Some of them stay out in the West and become Islamic apologists. Some of them return to Pakistan and inherit the plutocracy their parents and grandparents built.

    The religious fundies there are often just filling the gaping holes left by the state and the society - when you are dirt poor and the only person offering your family food and your kids any semblance of education is a Talibani, and you know the state has no time for you and the rich would kick your children's dead bodies to the curb on their way to their gated communities, then you will take the help from the religious fundies and be indebted to them, especially when they preach supremacist dogma to you.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #38 - March 06, 2013, 07:54 PM
    I remember trying to explain to my egyptian friend that Ahmedis are NOT satan worshippers like she was told by another Sunni friend. I got three of them in a conversation and after showing some knowledge of ahmedis that person softened their tone about them.

    Is it bad that I'll defend Ahmedis. They seem like a very soft version of Islam and they don't bother anyone. I don't like when other Muslims trash talk them.
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #39 - March 06, 2013, 08:02 PM
    This is a completely un-academic assessment. It’s more of a rant as I try to collect my thoughts on this disturbing tragedy. Take it for what it's worth.

    I’m thinking about all of the things that are wrong with Pakistan and I can’t help but feel pessimistic. Historically, there has always been some sort of a counter-movement that emerges in response to oppression. Those movements, as imperfect as they may be, always tend to have elements of reform that improve upon the status quo. Generally speaking, even the most radical and extreme elements of resistance in the face of oppression have at least provided a thrust in the over all “right direction,” even if they managed to get the details or the means wrong somehow.

    In Pakistan today, I see no such positive movement.

     On a grassroots level, people seem to cling more to their own particular religious tradition, which, regardless of what form it may take, is always some toxic blend of hatred, bigotry, and backwardness.  

    On a national level, the general sentiment seems to be against secularism and human rights for all. Taking into consideration the recent blasphemy trails and what appears to be the general social apathy towards the persecution of minorities, it seems that anyone that wants to lead a progressive movement of any sort would have to pander to this social attitude. There can be little progress made if this is true.

    Domestically, as Allat said, the politicians are essentially a class of pimps and parasites with power. They spend their time with their families in Dubai and in London and in New York while manipulating the policies and stealing the resources of a country that desperately needs all that it has.

    Internationally, oh my goodness where do I start?  It is impossible to even hint that founding a country on the backwardness of 7th century Islam might not have been the best idea. There seems to be a trend to blame everything wrong with the country on their archrival, India, or on the United States. Meanwhile, both nations’ “fight against terror” seems only to fuel that sentiment. The fact is that those countries are more interested in achieving their own objectives than actually helping Pakistan gain the stability and prosperity it needs. It’s hard to expect anything else from a foreign power.

    So in the end, yeah, I don’t see any real reason to have hope for Pakistan right now. It is a helpless feeling to know that the next huge atrocity is only waiting to happen.  
  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #40 - March 06, 2013, 08:04 PM
    Despite horrible things like this being in the news all over the world, I think it's only going to continue to happen inshallah.

    Wait a sec... Inshallah...

    Allah wills for this shit to happen? wacko
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #41 - March 06, 2013, 08:12 PM
    You've hit the nail on the head Allat and HM. The general attitude towards how to make progress stinks so much there is no hope. I know for a fact a lot of the middle/lower class think they are not religious enough so that is why pakistan suffers. Such deluded thinking is the reason pakistan is in such a mess.
  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #42 - March 06, 2013, 08:18 PM
    Until someone other than religious fundies help the masses of the poor in Pakistan, religious fundamentalism will continue to grow.

    The problem is not JUST the fundamentalism but WHY it's taken hold there and that is largely due to poverty. People are KEPT poor and helpless so that the elites can exploit them, give them nothing, etc. The fundies are the vultures who prey on the already poor.

    Give people something to LIVE for, before blaming them for wanting death that they believe will bring them paradise.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #43 - March 06, 2013, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 06, 2013, 08:02 PM
    Historically, there has always been some sort of a counter-movement that emerges in response to oppression.


    If the counter movement is to take refuge in ever increasing religiosity to purify society then the cause of the illness is masquerading as its cure. It seems like this may be what is happening in Pakistan.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #44 - March 06, 2013, 08:29 PM
    Problem lies in the mistrust that pakistanis have of outsiders. Conspiracy theories are rampant of how India or America is behind everything. Currently religious fundies have that common ground by having the same belief system. It makes it easier for people to misled. It does really seem like a lose lose situation in Pak.

  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #45 - March 06, 2013, 08:37 PM
    Quote from: allat on March 06, 2013, 08:18 PM
    Until someone other than religious fundies help the masses of the poor in Pakistan, religious fundamentalism will continue to grow.

    The problem is not JUST the fundamentalism but WHY it's taken hold there and that is largely due to poverty. People are KEPT poor and helpless so that the elites can exploit them, give them nothing, etc. The fundies are the vultures who prey on the already poor.

    Give people something to LIVE for, before blaming them for wanting death that they believe will bring them paradise.



    That is the conclusion I’ve come to at this stage in my life as well. Education, opportunity, and economic prosperity are the only things that can save a community.
  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #46 - March 06, 2013, 08:43 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 06, 2013, 08:37 PM
    That is the conclusion I’ve come to at this stage in my life as well. Education, opportunity, and economic prosperity are the only things that can save a community.


    This ^^^^^^^ YES

    We can sit here and wax poetic about how awful Islam is. At the end of the day none of us here is living under a bridge in Pakistan eating 1 piece of bread a week and having to cut off our own ear to beg for crumbs from the wealthy and getting ass raped by cops for not being able to bribe them.

    We can sit here and criticize Islam because we are privileged to not be so poor that we have nothing BUT religion to hold on to.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #47 - March 06, 2013, 08:46 PM
    But isn't it the case that its not them we criticise, its the comfortable class of people who have set the agenda for the country in religion rather than a secular society with an emphasis on education and development. And they seem to be the ones most drunk on Islam. The leaders and the leaders class, who aren't poor but have set the society on the path it is on.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #48 - March 06, 2013, 08:48 PM
    Good posts with valid comments on the state of Pakistan & the elites who rule it with arrogance & greed instead of compassion or any love of the nation as a whole. It is definitely a failed state but I'm also convinced that the state of Pakistan is also due to a deeply ingrained cultural problem. There is a deeply rooted attitude amongst Pakistanis that being cunning, deceptive & sly is a positive attribute to possess. I call it the 'chalaak' mentality & I think it is a very destructive & negative meme which is pervasive in the culture of the sub continent but more so in Pakistan.  In my experience, qualities such as honesty & decency are not valued or venerated by enough people there & that is one of the reasons why there is such a huge corruption problem there which is sucking the life out of the nation.
    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #49 - March 06, 2013, 08:54 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 06, 2013, 08:46 PM
    But isn't it the case that its not them we criticise, its the comfortable class of people who have set the agenda for the country in religion rather than a secular society with an emphasis on education and development. And they seem to be the ones most drunk on Islam. The leaders and the leaders class, who aren't poor but have set the society on the path it is on.


    Yeah I know most people here understand that... but I find a lot of these narratives going around... basically, it's just like you write. It's the elites in Pakistan who both exploit the poor, and promote religiosity as an identity for all Pakistanis, while themselves enjoying secularism in the West and in their own gated communities.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #50 - March 06, 2013, 08:56 PM
    Quote from: Homo Sapien on March 06, 2013, 08:48 PM
    Good posts with valid comments on the state of Pakistan & the elites who rule it with arrogance & greed instead of compassion or any love of the nation as a whole. It is definitely a failed state but I'm also convinced that the state of Pakistan is also due to a deeply ingrained cultural problem. There is a deeply rooted attitude amongst Pakistanis that being cunning, deceptive & sly is a positive attribute to possess. I call it the 'chalaak' mentality & I think it is a very destructive & negative meme which is pervasive in the culture of the sub continent but more so in Pakistan.  In my experience, qualities such as honesty & decency are not valued or venerated by enough people there & that is one of the reasons why there is such a huge corruption problem there which is sucking the life out of the nation.


    Very interesting points, and I'm sure I agree with you on this.

    Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #51 - March 06, 2013, 09:11 PM
    I mean that Pakistanis are often encouraged from a young age to be sly & cunning (chalaak-in Urdu)- they see that as being clever or intelligent when in reality it can have negative effects on a society if pervasive enough. I see this attitude all the time in people that have been raised in Pakistan & even in Pakistanis that have not been raised there. I also see it in Indians & there is still a lot of corruption there too. I see it in many of my own family members.
    I do not see this in western culture. You may argue that the reason it exists is poverty or lack of opportunity but I have also seen it in affluent Pakistanis so the question is why is it there? I don't know that but I know I see it a lot & I think it wasn't there - the sub continent as a whole would be a much better place.
    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #52 - March 06, 2013, 09:21 PM
    Quote from: Homo Sapien on March 06, 2013, 09:11 PM
    I mean that Pakistanis are often encouraged from a young age to be sly & cunning (chalaak-in Urdu)- they see that as being clever or intelligent when in reality it can have negative effects on a society if pervasive enough. I see this attitude all the time in people that have been raised in Pakistan & even in Pakistanis that have not been raised there. I also see it in Indians & there is still a lot of corruption there too. I see it in many of my own family members.
    I do not see this in western culture. You may argue that the reason it exists is poverty or lack of opportunity but I have also seen it in affluent Pakistanis so the question is why is it there? I don't know that but I know I see it a lot & I think it wasn't there - the sub continent as a whole would be a much better place.


    Interesting.... yes I can definitely see that. Especially in Pakistani culture but yes also in Indian culture. Chalaaki (cunningness) is glorified, while bholapan (being someone who trusts others) is discouraged.

    I do think it has political and economic roots, but yes by now it has become a cultural habit, so almost everyone partakes in that culture. The ones who don't participate in that are seen as losers ("bewakuf" "buddhoo" etc.).
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #53 - March 06, 2013, 09:31 PM
    Yes Allat- definitely. You get where I'm coming from on this I can tell. I'm surprised more people don't acknowledge or recognize this. What you get taught in childhood has a profound effect on what you become in the future & the way you conduct yourself. This 'chalaaki' attitude I'm sure is responsible for a lot of the corruption in the sub continent.
    What did you mean when you said it has political & economic roots?
    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #54 - March 06, 2013, 09:39 PM
    Quote from: Homo Sapien on March 06, 2013, 09:31 PM
    What did you mean when you said it has political & economic roots?


    It's about blaming the victim.

    If I trusted someone e.g. a cop, or my mother-in-law, or my boss, and they turned around and took advantage of my trust, this kind of Indo-Pak cultural norm would blame me for being naive. It is about thinking that "might = right".

    This is often rooted in a history of marginalization... where almost everyone is a victim of corruption, abuse, violence, etc., people turn on themselves and start blaming the victims not the aggressors.

    The aggressors are fine with that, of course, and often encourage it as it means nobody is holding the chalaak aggressors accountable.

    The people gain a sense of power over their lives (though it's illusory)... i.e. by blaming myself (the victim), I can believe that I am in control and that next time I will not be taken advantage of.

    This becomes pathological and, it seems, has become so in Pakistani and other South Asian cultures.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #55 - March 09, 2013, 05:11 PM


    This report on 'narratives of extremism' in Pakistan is fascinating and a little scary too

    http://www.usip.org/files/resources/SR327-Pakistan-and-the-Narratives-of-Extremism.pdf

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #56 - March 09, 2013, 07:03 PM
    These losers are always hunting down someone one that they don't agree with. So sick and tiring of this nonsense
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #57 - March 09, 2013, 07:41 PM
    As a matter of foreign policy we should first try to restrict Pakistan from developing any more nuclear weapons. This should be a top priority.

    The we should use political pressure to disarm their nuclear weapons completely.

    It's already a complete disgrace that we let them acquire nuclear weapons in the first place.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Hunting down Shias: Society?s deafening silence
     Reply #58 - March 09, 2013, 07:46 PM
    I like Christopher Hitchens take on Pakistan and extremism

    Pakistan is the Enemy

    From Abottabad to Worse

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Hunting down Shias: Society’s deafening silence
     Reply #59 - March 09, 2013, 07:50 PM
    Dozens of Christian's homes set on fire after a Christian is accused of blasphemy

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/bomb-kills-4-wounds-dozens-northwest-pakistan
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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