There is no arguing against dogma featuring the iERA

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- deusvult
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There is no arguing against dogma featuring the iERA
OP - March 06, 2013, 04:36 PM

http://rationalist.org.uk/articles/4069/when-debate-with-the-religious-is-pointless

Quote
It was at this point that I realised we were going to get nowhere in the discussion. The form of Islam that is propagated by Qureshi and Ahmad – and presumably at the Islamic Education and Research Academy – is one that disallows any idea that, for example, there is a lively debate within Islam about moral behaviour and the degree to which the Qu’ran should be treated contextually or interpreted according to a changing society.

Instead it employs an arsenal of pretty cheap rhetorical tricks to squeeze from the discussion of any topic the desired outcome which is to show that Islam has it right. At one point Subboor said something like, even a pig knows why he’s here, he knows his purpose is to root around in the mud. Yet a humanist doesn’t know what his purpose is and thinks you have to decide that for yourself. So a humanist thinks that man is not even as good as a pig. At another time one of the Muslims in the audience made this point: a pencil is for writing, a chair is for sitting on. The humanist doesn’t know what a man is for. Therefore they think he is less than a pencil or a chair.

I guess I always knew this about religions, and perhaps I have been misled by the interesting conversations and subtle reasoning of religious sophisticates like Fuad Nahdi, Richard Holloway and Giles Fraser. Did it really take me by surprise that religion like this is simply unyielding and self-reinforcing dogma – the very opposite of thought (even more so of interesting thought)? Maybe it was the fact that I was back at my old university, where I learnt so much about subtly of thought, that I felt so outraged at the low level of the debate. But also it was because I could see the potential power these ideologues could have over those students who had a sincerely held belief in Islam and a desire to defend it in the modern world.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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- deusvult
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There is no arguing against dogma featuring the iERA
Reply #1 - March 06, 2013, 04:49 PM

I suggest reading the whole thing

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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There is no arguing against dogma featuring the iERA
Reply #2 - March 06, 2013, 05:09 PM

Quote
At one point Subboor said something like, even a pig knows why he’s here, he knows his purpose is to root around in the mud. Yet a humanist doesn’t know what his purpose is and thinks you have to decide that for yourself. So a humanist thinks that man is not even as good as a pig. At another time one of the Muslims in the audience made this point: a pencil is for writing, a chair is for sitting on. The humanist doesn’t know what a man is for. Therefore they think he is less than a pencil or a chair.

How have they managed to survive for so long being so stupid?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #3 - March 06, 2013, 05:13 PM

These are the same people who, a thousand years ago, would have been arguing “Yeah, if the earth moves around the sun, how come we don’t feel it spinning, huh???”
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Reply #4 - March 06, 2013, 05:20 PM

I have recently been reading about Scientology ( picked up a book by Jenna Miscavige, David Miscavige's nieve who managed to escape the church).

What struck me more than anything is the Church of Scientology's attitude to those that question the doctrine of the church or any of the practices in any way.

One of the biggest criticisms against the church is its policy of disconnection- basically, anybody who so much as questions the church, it's doctrines or practices is declared a SP ( suppressive person) and they are completely cut out, and forced to litreally disconnect completely from the family. the family is turned against them, furthermore the church will go out of it's way to victimise the individual, make their life miserable, intimidate them, and chase them out of the community. SPs are declared "fair game"- under church policy, it is legitimate to exercise any means possible to incapicitate and eradicate the enemy-including death.

What is ridiculous is my family and almost all muslims will use this as proof that Scientology is not a legitimate religion- clearly a cult and afraid of any one thinking freely.

Look in to the mirror I want to scream. How is scientology so different to Islam in this respect?
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Reply #5 - March 06, 2013, 05:25 PM

Islam is a text book cult if ever there was one.
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Reply #6 - March 06, 2013, 05:29 PM

Quote
Instead it employs an arsenal of pretty cheap rhetorical tricks to squeeze from the discussion of any topic the desired outcome which is to show that Islam has it right.

Sums iERA up ^^^

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Reply #7 - March 06, 2013, 07:23 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on March 06, 2013, 05:13 PM
These are the same people who, a thousand years ago, would have been arguing “Yeah, if the earth moves around the sun, how come we don’t feel it spinning, huh???”

ye pretty much the attitudes IERA and it's like have.

Reading the article it basically summed up every thing wrong with debating individuals like IERA. From the looks of it and the comment about pencils and chairs, the debate dwindled to name calling which for the Muslim watchers probably reassured them that the humanists had lost. It gives them a false sense of assurance that Islam can survive scrunity even though the real problems are left aside.

In the article he brings up being misrepresented and the other guy apologized, I do wonder if he apologized and conceeded during the debate he had misrepresented rather than just passing a note. I say this because if not they have left the Muslim contingent their ignorant of the actual truth. Whether the muslim guy did this intentionally or not can't really say.
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Reply #8 - March 07, 2013, 07:29 AM

Quote from: mina on March 06, 2013, 05:20 PM
What is ridiculous is my family and almost all muslims will use this as proof that Scientology is not a legitimate religion- clearly a cult and afraid of any one thinking freely.

Look in to the mirror I want to scream. How is scientology so different to Islam in this respect?

Scientology pops up on current affairs programs here quite often and my mum immediately dismissed it as a cult and wondered aloud why people would cut off family members because they left the church; she also doesn't understand how/why Scientology gets away with harassing and intimidating defectors and critics

They were discussing criticism of religion on the radio and my sister went on about how wrong it was that some people had the chutzpah to criticise religion; my mum (for some reason I can't explain) pointed out that Scientology gets too much criticism, to which my sister replied "Scientology is bad! They deserve to be criticised!" Scientology is shit (and kinda hilarious) but how can a hardcore Muslim honestly say Scientology is bad? It's just a clever yet creepy star-studded ponzi scheme, while Islam is a 1.6 billion people strong cult, some of whose members have a habit of spontaneously combusting in crowded areas.
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Reply #9 - March 07, 2013, 01:01 PM

funny how hamza complains about athiests using "outdated cliches" when Iera themselves excessively use the outdated cliche plagiarized from christians of "you can''t be moral without god"
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