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 Topic: Rape culture

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  • Rape culture
     Reply #30 - March 19, 2013, 11:57 AM
    Quote from: Cato on March 19, 2013, 11:43 AM
    @Tlaloc

    I'm highlighting the fact that there are challenges made against a traditional scientific discourse as being bias in favour of male perspectives.Bit irrelevant I admit.

    Ah, yes, I am aware of that.

    I thought you were saying that the "I doubt it's cultural" hypothesis is biased in favor of a male perspective, and I failed to see why since it does not say anything nice about male humans ^_^
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #31 - March 19, 2013, 12:02 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on March 19, 2013, 11:53 AM
    Uh?
    That makes no sense.

    Does it not? Let me elaborate: As humans, we tend to believe we are of a higher moral standing than beasts. But hey, if you think rapists are morally equivalent to animals, I guess that means we should treat them like the animals that they are.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #32 - March 19, 2013, 02:41 PM
    Quote from: Abood on March 19, 2013, 12:02 PM
    Does it not? Let me elaborate: As humans, we tend to believe we are of a higher moral standing than beasts.

    Ok...

    Quote from: Abood on March 19, 2013, 12:02 PM
    But hey, if you think rapists are morally equivalent to animals, I guess that means we should treat them like the animals that they are.

    Uhm, no.
    That's completely illogical.

    Even if for some mysterious reason I thought that rapists possessed a morality equivalent to that of animals (which I don't)... that does not imply that I ought to change my own morality and treat them like they are not humans.

    So that's all a giant fallacy ^_^
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #33 - March 19, 2013, 07:50 PM
    Athlete Overcomes Rape
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWLJZw9Ws-g
  • Rape culture
     Reply #34 - March 19, 2013, 07:50 PM
    Quote from: Cato on March 19, 2013, 10:05 AM
    ^Im very sure there is a scientific explanation that refutes your point knowing that traditional science discourse has been historically biased towards male perspective.


    I'd agree with that.  Scientific explanations for things currently, are scientific explanations for things CURRENTLY, and yes, historically science has favoured man, especially the white man.

    After all, it was common once to read scientific journals that were absolutely sure of the fact that homosexuals were mentally ill, or that immigrants were significantly feeble minded.  So sure of their scientific beliefs completely unaware of the fact that the future would prove them wrong.

    I do not believe so blindly these evolutionary explanations for men, that give them such a free license to believe they are not in control of their own sexual urges. 

    Just seems like a belief that could one day be proven wrong. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #35 - March 19, 2013, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on March 19, 2013, 11:04 AM
    Alright, I was (sorta) wrong. 

    The first page of results for "student rape sympathy" (and other similar searches) contained articles, blog posts, etc all related to the Steubenville case and this case and the media's reaction to it has gained worldwide attention, so I doubt it's typical for university students who rape to get sympathy. 


    I don't know, maybe not so much media sympathy, but definitely a hush hush attitude from college campuses. 
    http://jezebel.com/5988325/princeton-buries-rape-survey-report-only-to-have-it-leaked-later  (as an example)

    That story kind of reminds me of the whole priest hush hush attitude. 

    Quote
    You're right about athletes and celebrities though, but that has more to do with our culture's worship of the rich and famous (and their nutty fans who support them irrespective of whatever nasty shit they do) than a culture that routinely blames women for being raped. There's generally more sympathy for celebrities who commit crimes than there is for non-famous criminals, regardless of the crime in question. The OJ Simpson fiasco springs to mind. He had (and still has) plenty of supporters. 

    It's also a lot easier for people to accuse the victim of lying and having ulterior motives (e.g; five minutes of fame, money, etc) when a celebrity is involved. 



    Yup.  yes

    You know the sad thing is hearing people I speak to in uni, or on fb, or friends of friends (since my friends would get the boot with that sort of attitude), blaming the victim when she is female.  Be it for domestic abuse, or rape.....ignorant things like she shouldn't have dressed that way, drank that way, spoke that way.  or when it's domestic violence, perhaps she angered him, cheated on him, asked for it etc.

    It's kind of depressing arguing with the ignoramuses.  No depressing is the wrong word, it's infuriating. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Rape culture
     Reply #36 - March 19, 2013, 09:08 PM
    Quote from: Abood on March 19, 2013, 11:39 AM
    We also kill animals for food. I guess we should kill rapists for food as well.

    I'd be fine with that. Afro
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Rape culture
     Reply #37 - March 19, 2013, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on March 19, 2013, 07:50 PM
    I'd agree with that.  Scientific explanations for things currently, are scientific explanations for things CURRENTLY, and yes, historically science has favoured man, especially the white man.

    After all, it was common once to read scientific journals that were absolutely sure of the fact that homosexuals were mentally ill, or that immigrants were significantly feeble minded.  So sure of their scientific beliefs completely unaware of the fact that the future would prove them wrong.

    I do not believe so blindly these evolutionary explanations for men, that give them such a free license to believe they are not in control of their own sexual urges. 

    Just seems like a belief that could one day be proven wrong. 

    How does an evolved tendency, assuming for the sake of argument that it exists, equate to a free license to act in any particular fashion? That's a non sequitur.

    Humans are full of evolved tendencies that they are expected to suppress to some degree in a functioning society.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape culture
     Reply #38 - March 19, 2013, 09:14 PM
    Sadly I've been told by men before "It's in my nature"...."men behave this way because it's natural".

    Perhaps to you it does not equate a free license, but are you honestly going to sit there and say it doesn't equate to it for some?  or indeed many?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #39 - March 19, 2013, 09:16 PM
    They're the ones you lock up in dim, dark gaols. Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape culture
     Reply #40 - March 19, 2013, 09:30 PM
    Is there any actual data on rape being an evolved tendency, or is it just macho fantasy?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #41 - March 19, 2013, 09:32 PM
    No idea. However, from the point of view of acceptable behaviour in modern society, it doesn't really make a damned bit of difference.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape culture
     Reply #42 - March 19, 2013, 09:48 PM
    I don't see how the theory would hold water anyway. How would it account for gang rape, violence and murder with rape, anal and non-vaginal rape, pedophilia, rape of the elderly, rape of a direct family member, rapists who already have a sexual partner or who have other easier avenues to find sex, rape of a usually consenting sexual partner, and so on.

    And how would it account for what criminologists, psychologists and other experts say, and testimony of actual rapists, who seem to point to it being an act of premeditated anger, violence, power, humiliation in almost all cases by profoundly and deeply mentally distorted individuals.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #43 - March 19, 2013, 09:59 PM
    You seem to be assuming that anger, violence, desire for power and an inclination to inflict humiliation cannot be evolved traits. Historically, they seem to be extremely common and widespread traits.

    Anyway, just in: Two Teenagers Arrested for Threatening the Victim in the Steubenville Rape Case

    Quote
    Two teenagers were arrested Monday afternoon for allegedly issuing death threats on Twitter against the victim in the Steubenville rape case. Steubenville Police Chief Bill McCafferty confirmed the arrests to WTOV Monday evening.

    The teenagers arrested were 15 and 16-year-old girls, and one was apparently a relative of one of the convicted rapists. Jefferson County Sheriff Fred Abdalla said one of the teens turned herself in to authorities while the other was arrested elsewhere. State Attorney General Mike DeWine said in a press conference that the 15-year-old made her threat on Facebook and the 16-year-old's was made on Twitter. Both girls are being held in Jefferson County Juvenile Detention Center and are facing charges of aggravated menacing.

    Which really takes the biscuit.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape culture
     Reply #44 - March 19, 2013, 10:05 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 19, 2013, 09:59 PM
    You seem to be assuming that anger, violence, desire for power and an inclination to inflict humiliation cannot be evolved traits. Historically, they seem to be extremely common and widespread traits.

    No, the proposition offered is invariably that rape is an evolved function of sexual reproduction.

    Only an idiot needs to have it pointed out that violence et al is a common trait.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #45 - March 19, 2013, 10:07 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 19, 2013, 10:05 PM
    No, the proposition offered is invariably that rape is an evolved function of sexual reproduction.

    Oh, that one. That one is hard to support.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape culture
     Reply #46 - March 19, 2013, 10:13 PM
    A Darwinist response against evolutionary rape apologetics.

    Quote
    ... But is rape really an effective strategy for guys who, deep down in their genes, just want to be fruitful and multiply?

    There are plenty of evolutionary psychologists who would answer with a resounding no. They emphasize the evolutionary value of the human male's "parental investment"--his tendency to stick around after the act of impregnation and help out with the kids. Prehistoric dads may not have read many bed-time stories, but, in this account, they very likely brought home the occasional antelope haunch, and they almost certainly played a major role in defending the family from four-legged predators. In contrast, the rapist generally operates on a hit-and-run basis--which may be all right for stocking sperm banks, but is not quite so effective if the goal is to produce offspring who will survive in a challenging environment. The children of guys who raped-and-ran must have been a scrawny lot and doomed to end up on some leopard's lunch menu.

    Time.com
  • Rape culture
     Reply #47 - March 19, 2013, 10:22 PM
    I think in general, rape is a culture of 'taking advantage'.

    I don't want to de-emphasize the deeply sexual and intimate nature of rape, but I think at its core it shares a lot with other forms of taking advantage of people.

    People who financially take advantage of older people with mental problems. They see an opportunity to exert power and get something from a situation and they do it.

    A business person who takes advantage of an unknowing customer, like a shady auto-mechanic.

    As in the this case, the defenders don't see themselves as rapists and more than a shady auto-mechanic would see themselves as anything worse.
    They're simply 'taking advantage of a situation'.   Someone stupid enough to know nothing about cars can't really blame the mechanic for exaggerating the bill.  Someone stupid enough to get piss drunk around a group of partying guys can't really blame them if they do sexual acts on her.

    Or in the extreme historical case where it's not even what someone did, but what they are... someone born the wrong race or to the wrong family deserves to be treated like a slave.

    That's the thinking at least.

    Ultimately, rape culture is just another avenue of taking advantage of people because they don't deserve to be treated like a human being.
    Rape culture has not been stigmatized to the extent that say ripping off the elderly or maltreatment of 'lesser races'

  • Rape culture
     Reply #48 - March 20, 2013, 01:27 AM
    Quote from: Abood on March 19, 2013, 10:13 PM
    A Darwinist response against evolutionary rape apologetics.
    Time.com


    Not a scientific source. Wink

    ETA: BTW, from what I know of hunter-gatherer societies, the women actually bring in most of the food, and do it collectively. So an absent father would not have to result in starving kids. That's an argument better suited to later societies (like 1950's US or whatever).

    Given how widepsread rape has been, for as long as we know, and presumably before then, I think the "best" you can argue is that it's neutral from an evolutionary point of view. Honestly, there doesn't seem to have been a strong selection pressure against it. That doesn't mean it's an evolutionary advantage either, of course.

    And it still says nothing about how people should behave in any society we'd want to live in.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape culture
     Reply #49 - March 20, 2013, 02:20 AM
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/venkat/1090386/

    India and Rape are about to be synonyms.
    All i know is what was told,
    All i think is what i know,
    All i am is what i think,
    All i know NOT is who i am.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #50 - March 20, 2013, 05:20 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 19, 2013, 09:08 PM
    I'd be fine with that. Afro


    Eww...

    Rapist germs.  vomit
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Rape culture
     Reply #51 - March 20, 2013, 05:24 AM
    S'ok if they're well cooked. Yum Yum
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape culture
     Reply #52 - March 20, 2013, 08:29 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on March 19, 2013, 07:50 PM
    I do not believe so blindly these evolutionary explanations for men, that give them such a free license to believe they are not in control of their own sexual urges. 

    Just seems like a belief that could one day be proven wrong. 

    I agree. Tbh, I'm generally very skeptical of the whole of evolutionary psychology as a discipline. 

    Quote from: BerberElla on March 19, 2013, 07:58 PM
    You know the sad thing is hearing people I speak to in uni, or on fb, or friends of friends (since my friends would get the boot with that sort of attitude), blaming the victim when she is female.  Be it for domestic abuse, or rape.....ignorant things like she shouldn't have dressed that way, drank that way, spoke that way.  or when it's domestic violence, perhaps she angered him, cheated on him, asked for it etc.

    It's kind of depressing arguing with the ignoramuses.  No depressing is the wrong word, it's infuriating. 

    My "friends" are mostly Muslim so it's taken as common sense that a woman who was raped bears "at least half the responsibility" (that is a real quote by a friend btw) if she was dressed "provocatively" or somehow drew the man's attention to her Roll Eyes 
  • Rape culture
     Reply #53 - March 20, 2013, 10:05 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 19, 2013, 09:11 PM
    How does an evolved tendency, assuming for the sake of argument that it exists, equate to a free license to act in any particular fashion? That's a non sequitur.

    Humans are full of evolved tendencies that they are expected to suppress to some degree in a functioning society.

    Exactly.

    This whole argument that rape MUST be a social construct otherwise men are justified to rape is completely nonsense. Along with the concept of "patriarchy". And it's exactly why I am unable to take most forms of feminism seriously.

    It's probably an extension of the "appeal to nature" fallacy.

    Even if rape and sexism were proved to be a natural occurrence... who cares?
    Nature is full of shitty disgusting things that we have always been trying to avoid: death, aging, diseases, parasites, causing the death of other beings just to feed ourselves, etcetera.

    Those who fight sexism, racism and other forms of oppression should do themselves a favor and try to have a more scientific mind about what might or might not cause such behavior instead of applying wishful thinking and blame it all on "social constructs" as if it were a certainty that the blank default state of humanity is all awesome and peaceful.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #54 - March 20, 2013, 10:26 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on March 20, 2013, 10:05 AM
    Exactly.

    This whole argument that rape MUST be a social construct otherwise men are justified to rape is completely nonsense. Along with the concept of "patriarchy". And it's exactly why I am unable to take most forms of feminism seriously.


    Yes, because not taking seriously the idea of patriarchy, or its affect upon people is very very scientific.  Very open minded too. 

    Also, let me break down what I believed to be blatantly obvious in my posts.  Using the appeal to evolutionary causes is actually something that happens.  Does it make it right?  am I saying that if it is true, that men are close to animals ergo they naturally have urges to rape like animals, that this means it's an awesome excuse?

    Or am I saying that it can be used as an excuse and is used as an excuse by people who blindly follow popular beliefs?

    YOU may not see the evolutionary explanation as an excuse, but YOU are not the representation of everybody who lives on this planet. 


    Quote
    It's probably an extension of the "appeal to nature" fallacy.

    Even if rape and sexism were proved to be a natural occurrence... who cares?
    Nature is full of shitty disgusting things that we have always been trying to avoid: death, aging, diseases, parasites, causing the death of other beings just to feed ourselves, etcetera.

    Those who fight sexism, racism and other forms of oppression should do themselves a favor and try to have a more scientific mind about what might or might not cause such behavior instead of applying wishful thinking and blame it all on "social constructs" as if it were a certainty that the blank default state of humanity is all awesome and peaceful.


    I would say you would do well to heed your own advice here.  I'm not sure what about any of your responses on here constitutes a more scientific mind than those of us who lean towards social learning as a theory, other than some belief of yours that you are either a - more naturally scientific than us plebs, or b - the evolutionary theory is more scientific.  (which is sort of laughable when you examine some of the methods used to prove it)
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #55 - March 20, 2013, 10:27 AM
    Quote from: Abood on March 19, 2013, 10:13 PM
    A Darwinist response against evolutionary rape apologetics.
    Time.com


    That argument is flawed, because it's an obvious false dichotomy.
    It's based on the assumption that the offspring of rape has no father for protection when growing up.

    So, it's completely ignoring, for example, cases like:
    - males forcing females to be their mate and giving them an offspring without running away
    - males raping females who already have a male mate who will then unknowingly take care of his offspring
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #56 - March 20, 2013, 10:30 AM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on March 20, 2013, 08:29 AM
    I agree. Tbh, I'm generally very skeptical of the whole of evolutionary psychology as a discipline. 


    Same.  I mean if I stumble across something that can prove that certain behaviours are evolved rather than conditioned I'm open to it, but thus far I'm not convinced.

    Quote
    My "friends" are mostly Muslim so it's taken as common sense that a woman who was raped bears "at least half the responsibility" (that is a real quote by a friend btw) if she was dressed "provocatively" or somehow drew the man's attention to her Roll Eyes 



    That................must................kill.......................you.  >.<  I can imagine how infuriating your day to day conversations can get. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #57 - March 20, 2013, 10:33 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on March 20, 2013, 10:27 AM
    That argument is flawed, because it's an obvious false dichotomy.
    It's based on the assumption that the offspring of rape has no father for protection when growing up.

    So, it's completely ignoring, for example, cases like:
    - males forcing females to be their mate and giving them an offspring without running away
    - males raping females who already have a male mate who will then unknowingly take care of his offspring


    What about Ishina's really good point about incestuous rape, granny rape, anal rape, rape with implements etc?

    Are these also about the evolved need to spread seed as far and wide as possible to net the most offspring and ensure the survival of your genes?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #58 - March 20, 2013, 10:42 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on March 20, 2013, 10:26 AM
    Yes, because not taking seriously the idea of patriarchy, or its affect upon people is very very scientific.  Very open minded too.

    Well, fortunately for me, I don't dismiss the idea of patriarchy.

    You are being as irrational as a religious person right now.
    Since I do not believe in whatever you believe in (that rape and sexism must be social constructs), then you are implying I believe in the exact opposite (i.e. that rape and sexism must NOT be social constructs).  

    Quote from: BerberElla on March 20, 2013, 10:26 AM
    Also, let me break down what I believed to be blatantly obvious in my posts.  Using the appeal to evolutionary causes is actually something that happens.  Does it make it right?  am I saying that if it is true, that men are close to animals ergo they naturally have urges to rape like animals, that this means it's an awesome excuse?

    Or am I saying that it can be used as an excuse and is used as an excuse by people who blindly follow popular beliefs?

    YOU may not see the evolutionary explanation as an excuse, but YOU are not the representation of everybody who lives on this planet.

    So are you saying that since people use X as an excuse to do something horrible then you want people to believe that X cannot be true?

    Quote
    I would say you would do well to heed your own advice here.  I'm not sure what about any of your responses on here constitutes a more scientific mind than those of us who lean towards social learning as a theory, other than some belief of yours that you are either a - more naturally scientific than us plebs, or b - the evolutionary theory is more scientific.  (which is sort of laughable when you examine some of the methods used to prove it)

    Again, you are committing the fallacy of believing that if I doubt social theories then I must believe they are necessarily false.

    If it makes you feel better, I also doubt evolution. I can say that I doubt it LESS, tho. Mainly because evolution has been successfully applied to practical problem solving in information technology.

    Also, if you notice, I did not even mention evolution in this whole thread, before this very post.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Rape culture
     Reply #59 - March 20, 2013, 10:56 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on March 20, 2013, 10:42 AM
    Well, fortunately for me, I don't dismiss the idea of patriarchy.


    Did anybody else on this forum interpret this comment by Tlaloc as a dismissal of patriachy: This whole argument that rape MUST be a social construct otherwise men are justified to rape is completely nonsense. Along with the concept of "patriarchy". And it's exactly why I am unable to take most forms of feminism seriously.


    Quote
    You are being as irrational as a religious person right now.


    When in doubt, insult a person.  The scientific method I take it?

    Quote
    Since I do not believe in whatever you believe in (that rape and sexism must be social constructs), then you are implying I believe in the exact opposite (i.e. that rape and sexism must NOT be social constructs).  


    Imagine how simple the world would be if you didn't play word games, that you simply replied "I don't believe 100% in either, but I lean more towards evolutionary explanations"

    Imagine how less insulting that would have been.

    Quote
    So are you saying that since people use X as an excuse to do something horrible then you want people to believe that X cannot be true?


    Am I?  Or are you saying that for me?

    Quote
    Again, you are committing the fallacy of believing that if I doubt social theories then I must believe they are necessarily false.

    If it makes you feel better, I also doubt evolution. I can say that I doubt it LESS, tho. Mainly because evolution has been successfully applied to practical problem solving in information technology.


    Oh look, you managed to say what you believed, without implying a dismissal of and the irrationality of anyone who leaned the other way. 

    Quote
    Also, if you notice, I did not even mention evolution in this whole thread, before this very post.


    Very clever.  You state you didn't mention it, but you waded in dismissive of the alternative explanation being given at the time, in a very typical "oh you illogical irrational emotional practically religious people, why can't you be more sciency" way.

    Funny how you lean towards a position you are very clear you never once mentioned.   Afro

    How about this as advice, until you are able to prove that having a preference for the social construction approach is not scientific, you refrain from accusing people who do prefer it, from being unscientific?

    I'm of course failing to see how seeing rape in the animal world naturally equates to an explanation for human rape, and wouldn't really call that sort of theorising 'scientific' either. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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