Sharia and slavery

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Sharia and slavery
OP - April 01, 2013, 03:32 PM

Are there actually any proper Islamic states anywhere?

What, based on the koran, would be mandatory in the ummah?

Surely slavery would?

If the koran is God's perfect revelation, why does no one actually implement and promote slavery?

Why are Islamic nations not actually promoting slavery because it is Allah's will? Do we know better than Allah?

And this of course includes sex slavery.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #1 - April 01, 2013, 05:29 PM

They can't because of western pressure.
The old "Times are different" excuse works like magic.
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Reply #2 - April 01, 2013, 06:38 PM

I'm sorry, but I know of no mandate in islam that calls for slavery to be necessary or to be promoted.

You're grasping here for an argument that holds no merit.

Islam may have rules for keeping slaves if you have them, and for the treatment of them, and for how to free them, but no law anywhere that says muslims MUST have slaves.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #3 - April 01, 2013, 09:19 PM

But how does one decide what is mandated and what is not?

And if there are rules about slavery, does that not mean they are accepted as part of Allah's world?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #4 - April 01, 2013, 09:41 PM

Quote from: moi on April 01, 2013, 09:19 PM
But how does one decide what is mandated and what is not?

In Islamic jurisprudence, every action fits into one of five categories:

1.   Wajib (Obligatory): That which one is rewarded for doing, and susceptible to punishment for not doing. For example, the five daily prayers.
2.   Mustahab (Recommended): That which one is rewarded for doing, but is not susceptible to punishment for not doing. For example, fasting outside of Ramadan or praying additional prayers above the 5 obligatory ones.
3.   Mubah (Allowed) : That which there is no reward for doing nor punishment for not doing. Owning slaves would fall into this category, as would driving a blue car or eating French fries. Basically, Allah doesn’t give a fuck if you do it or not.
4.   Makrooh (Disliked): That which there is a reward for not doing, but no punishment for doing. An example would be going back to sleep after the dawn prayer.
5.   Haraam (Forbidden): That which one is rewarded for not doing, and susceptible to punishment for doing. Naturally, there is a bunch of stuff that falls into this category: Eating with your left hand, wearing trousers that fall below your ankles, using an interest credit card, eating pork, listening to music, wearing silk if you are a man, wearing perfume outside if you are a woman, touching the opposite sex, praying for a dead non-Muslim, clearly, all the really bad stuff is Haraam. I wonder how non-muslims have any sense of morals…
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Reply #5 - April 02, 2013, 08:29 AM

Quote
3. Mubah (Allowed) : That which there is no reward for doing nor punishment for not doing. Owning slaves would fall into this category, as would driving a blue car or eating French fries. Basically, Allah doesn’t give a fuck if you do it or not

Then, are we not in the "West" wrong in stating something is wrong that Allah ignores?

And is there an underlying assumption that things are right or wrong or neutral dependent on a punishment or a reward? That is a very strange moral philosophy - that we do not do things because they are good, or just or loving for their own sake?

Are things right because they are or because the gods say they are?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #6 - April 02, 2013, 12:57 PM

There is no malum in se in Islam, only malum prohibitum.
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Reply #7 - April 02, 2013, 04:03 PM

Please explain!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #8 - April 02, 2013, 04:10 PM

Just looked this up in wiki. I am amazed that I do not remember reading anywhere that Islamic law is flawed in principle and has no concept of natural justice.

Quote
Malum in se (plural mala in se) is a Latin phrase meaning wrong or evil in itself. The phrase is used to refer to conduct assessed as sinful or inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct. It is distinguished from malum prohibitum, which is wrong only because it is prohibited.

For example, most human beings believe that murder, rape, and theft are wrong, regardless of whether a law governs such conduct or where the conduct occurs, and is thus recognizably malum in se. In contrast, malum prohibitum crimes are criminal not because they are inherently bad, but because the act is prohibited by the law of the state.

This concept was used to develop the various common law offences.[1]

Another way to describe the underlying conceptual difference between "malum in se" and "malum prohibitum" is "iussum quia iustum" and "iustum quia iussum," namely something that is commanded (iussum) because it is just (iustum) and something that is just (iustum) because it is commanded (iussum).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_in_se

Islam is far more f..ed than I realised.

Islam seems to be a textbook example of a tyranny.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #9 - April 06, 2013, 04:08 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on April 01, 2013, 09:41 PM
In Islamic jurisprudence, every action fits into one of five categories:

1.   Wajib (Obligatory): That which one is rewarded for doing, and susceptible to punishment for not doing. For example, the five daily prayers.
2.   Mustahab (Recommended): That which one is rewarded for doing, but is not susceptible to punishment for not doing. For example, fasting outside of Ramadan or praying additional prayers above the 5 obligatory ones.
3.   Mubah (Allowed) : That which there is no reward for doing nor punishment for not doing. Owning slaves would fall into this category, as would driving a blue car or eating French fries. Basically, Allah doesn’t give a fuck if you do it or not.
4.   Makrooh (Disliked): That which there is a reward for not doing, but no punishment for doing. An example would be going back to sleep after the dawn prayer.
5.   Haraam (Forbidden): That which one is rewarded for not doing, and susceptible to punishment for doing. Naturally, there is a bunch of stuff that falls into this category: Eating with your left hand, wearing trousers that fall below your ankles, using an interest credit card, eating pork, listening to music, wearing silk if you are a man, wearing perfume outside if you are a woman, touching the opposite sex, praying for a dead non-Muslim, clearly, all the really bad stuff is Haraam. I wonder how non-muslims have any sense of morals…

Is there a hadith that says eating with your left handed is haraam?

If so it could be useful in an argument to show how ridiculous Islam is and how mo had not clue about the fact that left handedness is not something one controls.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #10 - April 08, 2013, 12:34 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on April 01, 2013, 06:38 PM
I'm sorry, but I know of no mandate in islam that calls for slavery to be necessary or to be promoted.

You're grasping here for an argument that holds no merit.

Islam may have rules for keeping slaves if you have them, and for the treatment of them, and for how to free them, but no law anywhere that says muslims MUST have slaves.

Whilst not EXPLICIT I'd say it's IMPLICIT

Mo sold, bought, traded and exchanged slaves. Islamic clerics describe him as AL-Insan-Al-Kamil(the perfect man) and are told strive to live like and be like him in character and actions. He is supposed to be the role model for exemplary muslim conduct and behavior.
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Reply #11 - April 09, 2013, 02:53 AM

It's all about picking and chose, also from what I understand most Muslims are ignorant about this, and many other dumb rules like the left hand thing and chose to pretend it never happened.

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Reply #12 - April 09, 2013, 06:09 AM

Quote from: serpentofeden on April 08, 2013, 12:34 PM
Whilst not EXPLICIT I'd say it's IMPLICIT

Mo sold, bought, traded and exchanged slaves. Islamic clerics describe him as AL-Insan-Al-Kamil(the perfect man) and are told strive to live like and be like him in character and actions. He is supposed to be the role model for exemplary muslim conduct and behavior.

Nope, muslims are still taught that the emphasis was on his release of slaves.

Most muslims I know believe Islam ended slavery.

If moi's premise for this entire thread were true, they wouldn't.

That's not to say that if there was an all out global war and muslims began to take slaves in war again that the new generation wouldn't be raised to understand the slave rules, but the way things are right now, Mo is hinted to be like Jesus, ergo it is taught primarily that the part about slavery that you follow from the guide to all mankind is that he freed slaves.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #13 - April 09, 2013, 08:50 AM

What is the term for innovation? It looks like saying slavery is past is an innovation. But look at the reality, like Mauritania.

Quote
Slavery in Mauritania is an entrenched phenomenon the national government has repeatedly tried to abolish, banning the practice in 1905, 1981, and August 2007.[1][2] The descendants of black Africans abducted into slavery now live in Mauritania as "blacks" or haratin and partially still serve the "Moors" (Arabs), or bidhan, as slaves.

The number of slaves in the country was not known exactly, but it was estimated to be up to 600,000 men, women and children, or 20% of the population [3][4] of 3,069,000 people. Even though slavery is illegal, sociologist Kevin Bales believes that Mauritania is the country with the largest proportion of its population in slavery.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Mauritania

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #14 - April 09, 2013, 02:35 PM

I never suggested slavery didn't exist in some places in Islam, what I am saying, is that your opening post which believes slavery is mandatory in Islam, and that giving it up would some how be unislamic, is wrong.

Mandatory is the word you used and that is what I am contesting.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #15 - April 09, 2013, 05:26 PM

But as Mo practiced it, what is anyone doing going against the actions of the perfect messenger of allah? Do they know better than Allah's messenger? If they do about this, has not a slippery slope started? What else? The rules about inheritance and witnesses?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #16 - April 09, 2013, 05:28 PM

Wow.

You know, small matter really, but you can't prove ISLAM wrong by grasping at straws that aren't in every muslim sect's stables......you understand?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #17 - April 09, 2013, 05:31 PM

Facts are that many many muslims see mohammed as someone who freed slaves.

You can call it innovation to not own slaves if you like, but don't be surprised if most muslims don't take you seriously.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #18 - April 09, 2013, 05:41 PM

Difficult to get tone right here. I am proposing thought experiments and seeing where they go.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #19 - April 09, 2013, 05:56 PM

Moi, just keep it simple. You said that slavery is mandatory in Islam. BerberElla pointed out that Islam never says that.
That's it.
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