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Theme Changer

 Topic: God or No God!

 (Read 1887 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • God or No God!
     OP - April 04, 2013, 09:11 PM

    Hello Everyone!
    I am confused what I am following these days but I was following Islam a few months later. One of my friend converted to Atheism and asked me some questions that have shaken my belief. I always had some questions (which I still have) which were unanswered related to God and the religion, which always kept me thinking that am I following the right path. But now I have some questions for you people. The first quesion I have is this that what if for a moment I believe that God never created the Universe then who did it? The big bang? what led the big bang to happen? And what was there before the The big bang? and before the before of the big bang? I mean there has to be creator or i will say a creating force. This whole concept makes me go crazy. Don't think I am hitting your belief bcz I do that with Islam too like if God created the Universe then who created the God and who created the creation that created God. On this questions I have been told that i am not allowed to ask this question as God has not told us this and He don't want us to think about it. Tongue
    So I will be aksing a list of questions but I would like to start from this question.
    Thank you in advance, I would like answers with sources, evidences, proofs, etc
  • God or No God!
     Reply #1 - April 04, 2013, 09:36 PM

    Quote
    The first quesion I have is this that what if for a moment I believe that God never created the Universe then who did it? The big bang? what led the big bang to happen? And what was there before the The big bang? and before the before of the big bang? I mean there has to be creator or i will say a creating force. This whole concept makes me go crazy.


    the first thing to notice is that when science had not accomplished much, in the past, God was invoked to explain basically everything. If people did not know how the tides rise, then an easy answer is to  simply say god does it.
    Now we understand about the gravitational effect of the moon on the sea, no religious person would be willing to claim that tides require supernatural explanations.
    As science has progressed, the number of things that God can explain has shrunk. In fact, all we have left are 1. the origin of life, and 2. the origin of the universe. It is no coincidence that you are asking about the big bang.

    The second thing to notice, is that even though 'God' has been proposed to explain all sorts of things, in reality it explains nothing at all. Humans have a need to have explanations even if they are rubbish. God never was a good explanation for tides, and it isnt a good explantion for the universe. To say God created the universe does not really help us to understand anything. By what process did god create the universe?  What have we actually learned by adding god into the mix? nothing really. 
    'God' is only as good as any other supernatural explanation. it is no better than saying 'magic'. All unfalsifiable and unscientific explanations have equal value: none.

    The third thing to notice is that the origin of the universe is an area where we know that our intuitions are unreliable guides. We cannot apply our common sense to events that we cannot even begin to imagine.
    you ask "what led the big bang to happen?", but this question implies that time existed. the big bang was the beginning of time. It makes no sense to ask what happened in the period of time before there was any time.

    You are not alone to find this stuff confusing, but resorting to god as the explanation doesn't really get us anywhere. It doesn't explain it.

    Quote
    I have been told that i am not allowed to ask this question as God has not told us this and He don't want us to think about it.

    and don't you find that suspicious?
  • God or No God!
     Reply #2 - April 04, 2013, 09:50 PM

    Well said,

    Another thing to question is why it is always [insert particular religious person’s god here] that is evoked to explain things. Let’s suppose there was some sort of creative force, call it a god if you like (a dubious proposition, but nonetheless). What proof do we have that it was Allah? Why not Baal or Vishnu? Why not some alien 5th grader that created a universe as part of a science experiment? Why does it always get to be their particular imaginary friend that gets the credit?
  • God or No God!
     Reply #3 - April 04, 2013, 10:21 PM

    Welcome. Questions are a good sign as it show you are thinking through your beliefs.

    Quote
    The first quesion I have is this that what if for a moment I believe that God never created the Universe then who did it?


    This is a malformed question. The assumption being that there was a 'creation' which took place. This doesn't mean to say the universe came from nothing (a complete absence of anything) but the answer to that is very much still bieng worked out. The honest answer would therefore be we do not know. This then should lead us to employ methods which will give us this answer. Quantum mechanics has told us that particles do come in and out of existence from nothing (the physics definition).

    Quote
    The big bang? what led the big bang to happen? And what was there before the The big bang? and before the before of the big bang?


    There are plenty of theories in physics which try to explain the big bang and the events surrounding it. You could up read up on multiverse theory and if interested look in to quantum mechanics. The problem we have is that these explanations are relatively young and in constant revision compared to the religious explanations. The GOD explanation is basically used as cover for ignorance. If you notice every gap in human knowledge is filled with 'God did it' or 'magic'.

    Often in these situations it is very easy to opt for the simplest sounding explanation as per occam's razor that being the answer God. However, if you think carefully about is not the simplest explanation because then we have go in to business explaining God which is even more complicated. Thats why they encourage you not to ask questions about God in Islam.

    I would also ask you to think on the direct evidence for the claims made in Islam and evaluate them yourself honest and sincerely, this will help you start getting used to critical thinking and hopefully help with that feeling of confusion.

    The question I would advise you to ask to yourself is - why do you believe Islam to be true and whether your beliefs are based on reason and evidence?

    I recommend this so you can atleast rule out one explanation which is wrong and this will help too quickly rule out other religions. Eventually you will be left with beliefs which are based on actual reason and proper evidence.

    I hoped this helped.


  • God or No God!
     Reply #4 - April 05, 2013, 02:00 PM

    The first quesion I have is this that what if for a moment I believe that God never created the Universe then who did it? The big bang? what led the big bang to happen? And what was there before the The big bang? and before the before of the big bang? I mean there has to be creator or i will say a creating force.

    this is a question of physics, and many physicists have posted hypothesis to this question, ie multiverse

    even if we don't know what happened before the big bang that doesn't mean one particular religion is true or x god exists. This is the argument from ignorance.

    if you argue for a 'prime mover' before the big bang, you still got all your work ahead of you to a) prove it's a supernatural entity b) prove that supernatural entity is the particular one you favor out of the thousands claimed. Theists conflate a prime mover with their god, however we might aswell call the prime mover fred or derek until it's proved it's supernatural and then their particular supernatural entity.

    Also we don't know if the universe was created or what happened before the big bang or if there was even something before the big bang.

    Basically the theist says "everything has a cause and is finite" but then has to contradict themselves and use special pleading to say " but my god is uncaused and infinite".. so if the deity can be uncaused and infinite why can't the universe be, when we know many infinities exist within the universe?

  • God or No God!
     Reply #5 - April 05, 2013, 02:20 PM

    Another thing to consider is that as an atheist, you don’t have to know all the answers. I am perfectly ok with saying that I have no idea what happened before the big bang. Maybe it was absolutely nothing, maybe it was some creative force, maybe there are billions of universes that all start out with big bangs in ways that we can not fully understand. I have the luxury of saying “I don’t know.” I also have the luxury of being curious enough to try to find out.

    A religious person, on the other hand, has to tell you that not only does he know exactly who/what started the big bang, he also claims that he knows what this being’s name is, what it likes, what it hates, who it wants you to like, who it wants you to hate, how it wants you to act, what it wants you to eat, who it wants you to sleep with, what style of clothes it wants you to wear, how it wants you to wipe your ass, and, most importantly, how it wants you to spend your money.

    Don’t you think that is quite a lot of certainty in a rather uncertain area?
  • God or No God!
     Reply #6 - April 05, 2013, 02:33 PM

    Quote
    , you don’t have to know all the answers


    And that is LIBERATION

    Doubt is liberation, emancipating. When you don't have to try and make the world into something that only has worth if it 'proves' your faith, but ask questions and feel the freedom to doubt.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • God or No God!
     Reply #7 - April 05, 2013, 03:15 PM

    Believe it or not, I thought I was so smart and logical when I was believer.

    I genuinely remember having lines of argument along the following lines.

    1. The big bang created the universe
    2. What created the big bang?
    3. Something cannot come from nothing
    4. Therefore our origin violates our scientific thinking
    5. Our origins must be mystical
    6. Therefore it is more logical to believe in God as God is mystical

    Now I tend not to focus on is there a God questions.
    It's rather pointless.  I much rather focus on what kind of God and what specifics to believe in.

    In that sense. The God of Islam and the rituals of Sunnah are simply ridiculous and incompatible with being a decent person.



  • God or No God!
     Reply #8 - April 05, 2013, 11:24 PM

    Eraja, I don't think the god explanation follows the occam razor either. Just because people have a tendency to easily resort to the explanation, it doesn't mean that the explanation would be simple itself. For such a complex being to exist, it would only provoke more questions than answers.
  • God or No God!
     Reply #9 - April 06, 2013, 06:54 AM

    The first quesion I have is this that what if for a moment I believe that God never created the Universe then who did it? The big bang? what led the big bang to happen? And what was there before the The big bang? and before the before of the big bang? I mean there has to be creator or i will say a creating force.
    Thank you in advance, I would like answers with sources, evidences, proofs, etc

    Well I'm not an expert in post Standard model physics, but I have read up on it a lot in my life, so I can tell you at least some of the science behind it.

    The best idea we have right now (but not perfect by any means), as others have mentioned, is the multiverse theory. Just like when we found out our planet is just one of many planets in the solar system, and then we found that our solar system is just one of billions of other systems in the glaxaxy, and then we found out our galaxy is just one of billions in the observable universe, it now may even be that our own universe is one of inifnitely many more.

    You might ask, what is the evidence for the multiverse? Is it just a guess, or is there some tangible evidence behind it. Well there are three types of multiverses being discussed withing science, the "bubble version", the "brane version" (based off String Theory), and the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics (which I personally think is the coolest of all, as it posits the existence of parallel universes and alternate realities  dance). The reasoning behind these can be horrendously complicated, from the hyper 11-dimensioned view of reality in String Theory, to the realiziation of all possible outcomes in the wave function without it collapsing in quantum mechanics, sbut there hasn't been much experimental evidence yet. Some really cool recent discoveries like "dark flow" and cold spots in the cosmic background radiation may be actual possibilites of evidence though, and if you're interested you can google that, or pick up some physics books.

    To put it extremely simply (emphasis on extremely), imagine a hot bubbling bath. In this bath, there is no concept of time or even physics as we know it. It exists beyond what we understand in our daily lives. There are energy sites, or places in this bath where if a stimulus is triggered in a certain way, a bubble can form, which is a "big bang". Of course, different energy sites can create different shapes or sizes of the bubble, thus you can have multiple bubbles forming, each with their own properties. This is imporatant. Different kinds of universes can be made, each with their own constants and variables. For example, there a universe can be formed with certain properties that prevented it from forming matter, so its entire composition is that of energy and light. Another universe may be filled with antimatter, rather than matter. There's infinite possibilities. And that begs the question, why is our universe so finely suited to humans? How come our universe is capable of producing complex life such as ourselves. Well the reason is that we only exist in this way because of the unique properties of our universe. Out of the inifinite many possibilities, our universe formed in a way that made it possible for life like us to form. This is called the anthropic principle. The universe does not exist this way for us, but rather, we exist this way because that's how the universe turned out.

    Of course the penultimate question is, where did this water bath (analogy for the multiverse) come from? Well that's still hotly debated, and no one knows for sure. All of this is a pretty young theory, and still a lot more work has to be done. But the key point is, science doesn't rule out the possibility of a god, it has just positied that there is no need for one to have created our universe.
  • God or No God!
     Reply #10 - April 06, 2013, 12:22 PM

    Eraja, I don't think the god explanation follows the occam razor either. Just because people have a tendency to easily resort to the explanation, it doesn't mean that the explanation would be simple itself. For such a complex being to exist, it would only provoke more questions than answers.


    What I meant was that religious people resort to occams razor to use God as the simplest explanation, and I agree with you it is not the simplest explanation.
  • God or No God!
     Reply #11 - April 06, 2013, 01:59 PM

    It is a simplistic (not simple) psuedo explanation that is only satisfying for those who think that any 'answer' is better than none
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