The Quran

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OP - April 06, 2013, 08:48 PM

If anyone found the quran and had never heard of it, but were reasonably literate, what would their reaction be? What would it get on Amazon reviews?

I get the impression that for some strange reason, a whole religion and fourteen hundred years of thinking have been editing and controlling not the actual text but reactions to it.

Is there anything that actually expresses the magnificence and age of the universe, that helps humans to live better with each other?

Is there actually any relationship between its words and Islam as it is practiced now?

For example, to compare something that is much older

Quote
Tao Te Ching

by Lao-tzu

J. Legge, Translator

(Sacred Books of the East, Vol 39) [1891]

1

The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and
unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and
unchanging name.

(Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven
and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all
things.

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development
takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them
the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that
is subtle and wonderful.
2

All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing
this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill
of the skilful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the
want of skill is.

So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to
(the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the
idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the
figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from
the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and
tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and
that being before and behind give the idea of one following another.

Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and
conveys his instructions without the use of speech.

All things spring up, and there is not one which declines to show
itself; they grow, and there is no claim made for their ownership;
they go through their processes, and there is no expectation (of a
reward for the results). The work is accomplished, and there is no
resting in it (as an achievement).

The work is done, but how no one can see;
'Tis this that makes the power not cease to be.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/taote.htm

Is there actually anything sacred about the koran?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #1 - April 08, 2013, 10:11 AM

very nice poem, I like it.
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Reply #2 - April 08, 2013, 04:35 PM

Arguably it isn't just a nice poem, but part of one of the foundational texts of a major world religion!

My point is I cannot quite see the koran - allegedly perfect - getting anywhere near that in quality.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #3 - April 08, 2013, 04:40 PM

You have to hear it in it's original language Moi, Arabic, the language of Allah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCvNCtM2DLw
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Reply #4 - April 08, 2013, 04:54 PM

Umm, what language did Mo speak? He heard it in Arabic! It does not follow that that is Allah's language, Allah may have been being kind by translating for Mo!

To test this, we need to ask what profound responses to life the universe and everything does it contain? Is it not mainly high fallutin rhetoric not saying much?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #5 - April 08, 2013, 04:56 PM

I know it is a common Cliché, but the qur’an really does lose a lot of its beauty and character when it is translated. It is analogous to trying to translate hip hop lyrics into another language; once you lose the cadence and the rhyme, the meanings are not nearly as forceful. If you think of epic and poetic surahs like surat hud, suratul-waaqi’ah, and suratul haaqah, the sound and beauty of the verses is a huge part of what brings people to tears. Take this example from suratul-haaqah. With the help of a skilled qari’ who knows where to put the propper stress and intonation, it’s easy to get the mental image of this poor disbeliever pleading before allah on the day of judgement. This part of the qur’an is, in my opinion, genius:

Wa amma man ootiya kitabahu bishimaalihi fa yaqoolu yaa laytanee lam oota kitabiyah
Walam adri maa hisaabiyah
Yaa laytahaa kaanatil qaadiyah
Maa aghna annee maaliyah
Halaka annee sultaaniyah

(then comes the switch)

Khuthoohu fa ghullooh!
Thummal jaheeema sallooh!
Thumma fee silsilatin thar’uha sab oona thira’an faslokooh!
Innahukaana laa yu’mino billahil atheem
Walaa yahuddu ala ta’aamil miskeen
Fa laysa lahul yawma haa huna hameem
Walaa ta’aamun illa min ghilseen
Laa Ya’ kuluhoo illal khaati’oon

(Then the switch back to the present addressing the audience)

Falaa uqsimu bimaa tubsiroon
Wamaa laa tubsiroon
Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareem
Wa maa huwa biqawli shaa’ir—qaleelan maa tu’minoon
Walaa bi qawli kaahin—qaleelan maa tathakkaroon
Tanzeelun min rabbil Alameen.

The beauty and style is entirely lost in translation. There is no way to get it back.

25. But as for him who will be given his Record in his left hand, will say: "I wish that I had not been given my Record!
26. "And that I had never known, how my Account was!
27. "I wish, would that death had been my end!
28. "My wealth has not availed me,
29. "My power and arguments (to defend myself) have gone from me!"
30. (It will be said): "Seize him and fetter him,
31. Then throw him in the blazing Fire.
32. "Then fasten him with a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits!"
33. Verily, He used not to believe in Allah, the Most Great,
34. And urged not on the feeding of the poor,
35. So no friend has he here this Day,
36. Nor any food except filth from the washing of wounds,
37. None will eat except the Khati'un (sinners, disbelievers, polytheists, etc.).
38. So I swear by whatsoever you see,
39. And by whatsoever you see not,
40. That this is verily the word of an honoured Messenger [i.e. Jibrael (Gabriel) or Muhammad which he has brought from Allah].
41. It is not the word of a poet, little is that you believe!
42. Nor is it the word of a soothsayer (or a foreteller), little is that you remember!
43. This is the Revelation sent down from the Lord of all the worlds!
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Reply #6 - April 08, 2013, 05:00 PM

But what is this beauty? The language, the words, the morality, the philosophy? Are you arguing that burning in hell is beautiful if said in lovely words?

And is this not a quite common plea for justice and punishment of the unthinking wealthy?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #7 - April 08, 2013, 05:09 PM

Bear in mind that I don't believe the Qur'an is divine, so it has lost a lot of its magic to me now. As a person who understands Arabic, however, that set of verses is beautifully composed. As the idea behind Islam is the fear of God, when you hear those verses in Arabic, it can truly move you. I used to cry at those verses in particular. It is hard to explain why it is moving, but then again, it can be hard to explain why different sorts of music and poetry are moving. They evoke certain emotions in you that just give you the chills. The Star Spangled Banner, for example, also can give me the chills when sung skillfully. “And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air, gave proof through the night, that our flag was still there.” In and of them selves, these words are pretty mundane. But given the right setting (Washington DC at the inauguration of the country’s first black president, for example) and the right singer, (an award winning female R&B artist) and people can be moved to tears by these otherwise mundane words.
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Reply #8 - April 08, 2013, 05:12 PM

I admit it is entirely subjective.
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Reply #9 - April 08, 2013, 05:33 PM

The writings of St Paul have several "hymns" in them, probably the most famous includes 'and the greatest of these is love". Not all Bibles show them clearly - the New English Bible did.

Similarly, other works include poetic parts. The discussion here about oral tradition in the koran is exactly about this. This goes way back into the mists of time, before Homer over a thousand years before the Koran.

St Mark's gospel has what is called a chiastic structure. The Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Indians, the Chinese knew about rhythm and rhetoric and beauty. We probably have two million years of experience at this - making stone tools very quickly settles into rhythms. (See David Handy Noise)

Has anyone asked where actually the koran fits in a league table of world literature?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #10 - April 08, 2013, 05:40 PM

@ Tony, that video is hilarious! That guy doing it is obviously a layman (and not particularly fond of Islam lol). He made a lot of mistakes in recitation. I’m inferring that the point he is making is that any words sung out can sound nice, despite the meaning. The particular verses he was singing (not reciting) were “They ask you concerning the menses, say, “it is a harm, so avoid women on their menses, and come not near to them until they purify themselves. But when they have purified themselves, then approach them in ways that Allah has commanded you, verily Allah loves those who repent, and he loves those who remain pure! Your women are a tilth for you, so come to your tilth however you may please.”
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Reply #11 - April 08, 2013, 05:53 PM

Quote from: moi on April 08, 2013, 05:33 PM
Has anyone asked where actually the koran fits in a league table of world literature?

It is hard to say. The Qur’an has been put on a pedestal that it arguably does not deserve. If archeologists had just stumbled upon a Qur’anic manuscript one day, they would likely deem it as an impressive example of Arabic literature and spiritual expression. I doubt anyone would convert to Islam on account of it alone, though. When you combine the Qur’an’s place in history with the entire religion, culture, and civilization that has been built up around it and that bolsters its status, it is—for better and for worse—one of the most influential books in human history.

A better example of recitation of the surah I quoted above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGOhKgdFRpc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

A Muslim will tell you that this is divinely beautiful. As a person who has never been Muslim and who does not understand Arabic, what's your impression?
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Reply #12 - April 08, 2013, 06:03 PM

If an Islamic version of Life of Brian is ever made I think it would be funny to have verses of the Quran recited in sonorous style in English with various accents.

Imagine it in a West Country country bumpkin accent for example.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #13 - April 08, 2013, 06:17 PM

HAHAHA! I used to know this convert from London “propa cockney!” who used to tell me how he first recited the fatiha when he became a Muslim:

Al ‘umdulilahi rab al-alamayn’
Ar-rock-many ra ‘eeym’
Maliki yawma deeyn’

Used to have me in stitches!
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Reply #14 - April 08, 2013, 06:26 PM

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #15 - April 08, 2013, 06:42 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on April 08, 2013, 05:40 PM
@ Tony, that video is hilarious! That guy doing it is obviously a layman (and not particularly fond of Islam lol). He made a lot of mistakes in recitation. I’m inferring that the point he is making is that any words sung out can sound nice, despite the meaning.

Yeah, he keeps repeating "your wives are a tilth for you" in the chorus.

The video is good to learn Arabic too because it shows each letter on the screen as it is being pronounced. I thanked the guy who made it by telling him that it was helping me to learn Arabic, he told me that he made the video for lots of reasons, but learning Arabic was definitely not one of them.

Here is another one that he did of Surat Al-Waqiyah, that focuses on all the pleasures of paradise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K66C5x2N6Jg
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Reply #16 - April 08, 2013, 07:19 PM

Surprisingly, he makes a lot of mistakes in his ~~recitation~~ singing—ones that are even clearly noted in the script. For that, I wouldn’t advise using him to learn. He makes basic, laymen mistakes, for example, in “bi akwaabin wa abaareeqa wa ka’sin min ma’een.” He says, “wa abaareeqin,” which is clearly wrong. He also says “wa hoora ‘een.” When it should be “wa hoorun ‘een.” I know I’m really just nitpicking here, but he could have done a lot better in adhering to the grammatical/recitational rules. It would have made his satire more effective if a Muslim were to hear it. Now they’ll probably just claim he was a jew or something. lol

Sorry, off my rant mode now. I have a thing for tajweed. lol.
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Reply #17 - April 08, 2013, 07:25 PM

Hmm, could it be that he has purposely mispronounced words to make them rhyme better?

The logical conclusion being that the Quran is not perfect if the words could be pronounced wrongly and then rhymed better than when they are pronounced correctly...
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Reply #18 - April 08, 2013, 07:32 PM

I doubt that. It doesn’t sound deliberate. It sounds more like mistakes due to his accent/not being a professional reciter. If he were just reading a newspaper and made those mistakes, they’d still be linguistically wrong, but no one would much notice. When you study the qur’an, however, there are very specific instructions on the pronunciation of each letter. It seems like he just messed up because he didn't know better.
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Reply #19 - April 08, 2013, 07:34 PM

When he sings:

نساؤكم حرث لكم

The word حرث sounds like it ends with a z sound (zu). Is that how it is supposed to be? Because I thought the letter ث was supposed to be pronounced like an english "th" sound...

Arabic pronunciation is still a total mystery to me. I know the basic sounds of each letter and vowel markings. But sometimes I will read some words from the Quran and then hear them pronounced rather differently than what I would have expected.
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Reply #20 - April 08, 2013, 07:46 PM

Exactly. It's his accent. He pronounces it in a very colloquial accent, as opposed to pronouncing it in line with the crisp and strict rules of recitation. It is like how we Americans pronounce water: "Wahdurr." To us, that is correct. If you wanted to do a perfect reading of the word “water,” however, as handed down from generation to generation of English perfectionists—pronouncing each letter the way it was “originally” pronounced—it would sound very different. That is the best analogy I could think of, but It’s the same with tajweed—even more so really. Most Arabs are not great at it, but most have a basic understanding of how the qur’an should be pronounced differently from their everyday speech.

The fact that this guy makes such basic mistakes disappoints me.
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Reply #21 - April 08, 2013, 08:11 PM

The best reciter in modern times for proper recitation (tajweed) is probably Mahmoud Khalil Al-Hussary. Ali Abdul-Rahman Al-Hudhaifi is also a master reciter. Minshawy is good too. Some reciters focus more on charming the crowd than following the rules of tajweed. This is, Islamically speaking, not correct.

The letters in the Qur’an generally follow the same pronunciation as you would be taught in any Arabic language class. The big differences come primarily in the endings and in merging one word with another. There are four basic rules, ith-haar, idghaam, iqlaab, and ikhfaa. Basically it is a matter of how fully to pronounce the last letter of the word when merging it with the first letter of the next word. It can go from pronouncing it fully and crisply to completely changing it to another sound. Another issue is how fully to pronounce each letter individually. With a fatha above them, hard letters like Qaa and Raa should generally be pronounced with a sound that is similar to a short “o” vowel, while “light” letters like kaaf and haa should be pronounced with a sound similar to a short “a” vowel sound. There are also rules for stopping on certain letters, like Qaf, Ta, ba, Jeem, and daal. It is not easy to master and most non muslims obviously would not care much about any of it. When you hear it done incorrectly, however, it stands out.

This guy’s mistakes were a little more than just pronunciation. It would never be acceptable to say “abaarqin” for example, instead of “abaareeqa” because that word could never linguistically take a tanween. Anyway, it’s bad form, that’s all. Like a grammatical error in an English paper, it will piss off a good teacher. lol

Rant over now I swear.
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Reply #22 - April 08, 2013, 08:26 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on April 08, 2013, 08:11 PM
The letters in the Qur’an generally follow the same pronunciation as you would be taught in any Arabic language class............. It can go from pronouncing it fully and crisply to completely changing it to another sound.

That's very interesting. And I am not knowledgeable enough in Arabic to be the judge of this. But doesn't that somewhat contradict the idea that the Quran is perfect and written in pure and perfect Arabic? If you have to change the way certain endings are pronounced to make it rhyme better and sound more eloquent then the Quran is not perfect Arabic, and human beings are actually changing it's pronunciation to make it sound better.

Unless, the pronunciation changes are based on how Classical Arabic was always pronounced, so the changes are really just going back to how it would have been naturally pronounced in the 7th Century, but that would mean that all other literature from that era should also follow the same pronunciation rules as the Quran.
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Reply #23 - April 08, 2013, 08:32 PM

Is the alleged perfection of the koran in how it reads, how it is pronounced, what it says, what?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #24 - April 08, 2013, 08:39 PM

^ The alleged perfection that is claimed regarding the Qur'aan is not aesthetic reception. It is simply alleged that the Qur'aan does not conform to the two forms of literary styles in arabic : poetry and prose. By using a combination of metric and non-metric language, it is alleged that creating something similar to it, or even producing a surah (i.e. three lines) that doesn't conform to either one of the 16 styles of poetry or the styles of prose, is impossible. This is because the Qur'aan transcends the "productive capacity of nature".
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Reply #25 - April 08, 2013, 08:46 PM

Quote
Unless, the pronunciation changes are based on how Classical Arabic was always pronounced, so the changes are really just going back to how it would have been naturally pronounced in the 7th Century, but that would mean that all other literature from that era should also follow the same pronunciation rules as the Quran.

That is exactly the argument. The argument is that the rules of tajweed keep the recitation in line with exactly how the prophet taught it. A HUGE part of choosing a tajweed teacher is what is called their “ijaazah” or “tazkiyyah”—basically a certificate of excellence that is handed down from teacher to student showing that they have mastered the art. It is much like belts in martial arts.

Supposedly, these ijaazahs go all the way back to the prophet himself. The recitation style most common in the Muslim world is Hafs ‘an Asim. If you believe this sort of thing, there are seven generally accepted “riwaayaat” or recitation styles, all of which can trace their origin back to the prophet.

Supposedly, this falls in line with the hadith that the prophet allegedly said that the qur’an was revealed in 7 styles of recitation and all of them are acceptable. So Hafs, for example, who had his own school, learned from Asim, who learned from Abdullah ibn Habib who learned from Uthman bin Affan, Ali Bin Abi Talib, and Ubay ibn Ka’ab, who all learned from the Prophet. My shaikh I sat with in Madinah had an ijaazah in Hafs style. Shaikh Al-Hudhaifi (the Imam of the prophet’s mosque) has an Ijaazah in all 7 styles.

While one can be reasonably and understandably skeptical about the chains of narration of each style, there is an impressive level of uniformity among the recitation styles of scholars qualified in each respective riwaayah the world over.
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Reply #26 - April 08, 2013, 08:47 PM

Quote from: kutta on April 08, 2013, 08:39 PM
^ The alleged perfection that is claimed regarding the Qur'aan is not aesthetic reception. It is simply alleged that the Qur'aan does not conform to the two forms of literary styles in arabic : poetry and prose. By using a combination of metric and non-metric language, it is alleged that creating something similar to it, or even producing a surah (i.e. three lines) that doesn't conform to either one of the 16 styles of poetry or the styles of prose, is impossible. This is because the Qur'aan transcends the "productive capacity of nature".

That is more of a modern argument than a traditional one.
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Reply #27 - April 08, 2013, 08:54 PM

In taichi there are various schools and variants and teachers.

Does Islam have schools that say how one should pray, wash, bow etc? Are the conflicts about what is "Islamic" only the views of certain schools? Why have they become violent? I do not recall taichi masters being at war with each other!

My taichi instructor continually tells us to work out our own taichi. Is there such a thing as working out one's own Islam?

How much has China changed Islam?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #28 - April 08, 2013, 08:55 PM

Quote
Does Islam have schools that say how one should pray, wash, bow etc? Are the conflicts about what is "Islamic" only the views of certain schools?

Yes and we could spend all month talking about the differences.
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Reply #29 - April 08, 2013, 08:58 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on April 08, 2013, 08:47 PM
That is more of a modern argument than a traditional one.

True. The tzortzis argument lol.
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