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Theme Changer

 Topic: Muslims Against Homophobia

 (Read 2923 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     OP - April 07, 2013, 01:50 AM

    I was surfing the web and found this organization of British muslims that are for secularism. Now normally I am very skeptical of muslim organizations that claim to be moderate but once I saw that they support gay rights I think they are truly for secularism.

    Here is the website: 
    http://bmsd.org.uk/index.php/a-muslim-voice-for-gay-rights/


    Now do you think this organization will be willing to speak out for apostate rights and if yes can they be a potential ally for CEMB if we are both working for the common cause of secularism and human rights ?

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #1 - April 07, 2013, 01:58 AM

    They are already kuffar. We should invite them all to make intro threads.
  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #2 - April 07, 2013, 02:07 AM

    ^

    I can never understand for the life of me how those people can find their beliefs to be compatible with Islam after reading the Quran, hadith, tafseers and sira. 


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #3 - April 07, 2013, 02:08 AM

    I was surfing the web and found this organization of British muslims that are for secularism. Now normally I am very skeptical of muslim organizations that claim to be moderate but once I saw that they support gay rights I think they are truly for secularism.

    Here is the website:  
    http://bmsd.org.uk/index.php/a-muslim-voice-for-gay-rights/


    Now do you think this organization will be willing to speak out for apostate rights and if yes can they be a potential ally for CEMB if we are both working for the common cause of secularism and human rights ?


    In general, "Progressive Muslim" groups/individuals often don't want to associate with ExMuslims/apostates openly, even if their values are closer to ours than to traditional Muslims'. Makes them uncomfortable, I guess, lest they be called Kuffar more than they already are. I'd love to be proven wrong about this.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #4 - April 07, 2013, 02:09 AM

    Sincerely wish good luck to these guys

    In the meantime here is the extremely popular Mufti Menk who tours Britain regularly spouting homophobic hate

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuR_6LiEbxU

    Like I said, good luck to them

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #5 - April 07, 2013, 02:10 AM



    Now do you think this organization will be willing to speak out for apostate rights and if yes can they be a potential ally for CEMB if we are both working for the common cause of secularism and human rights ?


    No I don't think they would, they would be takfir'd faster than road runner.

    I've seen and read these guys and they are walking a knife edge as it is already

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #6 - April 07, 2013, 02:35 AM

    In general, "Progressive Muslim" groups/individuals often don't want to associate with ExMuslims/apostates openly, even if their values are closer to ours than to traditional Muslims'. Makes them uncomfortable, I guess, lest they be called Kuffar more than they already are. I'd love to be proven wrong about this.

     

    As far as I know sunni and shia Islam hates homosexuals and ex muslims equally no ?

    So if they already made the leap to support the LGBT community I doubt they are going to receive any more accusations of being "kuffar" from speaking for our rights than they already receive for supporting gay rights.



    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #7 - April 07, 2013, 02:40 AM

    There you go again using logic, TDR. Remember, these folks still identify as muslims. there is clearly something wrong.
  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #8 - April 07, 2013, 02:44 AM

    In general, "Progressive Muslim" groups/individuals often don't want to associate with ExMuslims/apostates openly, even if their values are closer to ours than to traditional Muslims'. Makes them uncomfortable, I guess, lest they be called Kuffar more than they already are. I'd love to be proven wrong about this.

    Do you think that about Irshad Maji? I don't know why she and certain others insist on calling themselves Muslim. One time, I caught out Zuhdi Jasser saying he doesn't believe in hell and he quickly stuttered and changed his words. I was like "I'm onto you arsehole" because it became obvious that he'd be a nobody-loser without his Muslim title to keep himself relevant.

    Gay republican politicians not welcome at CPAC:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joz6hvi7VC0

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #9 - April 07, 2013, 03:19 AM

    You can try TDR, but many have tried before you and been blocked out by so-called Progressive Muslims.

    Do you think that about Irshad Maji? I don't know why she and certain others insist on calling themselves Muslim. One time, I caught out Zuhdi Jasser saying he doesn't believe in hell and he quickly stuttered and changed his words. I was like "I'm onto you arsehole" because it became obvious that he'd be a nobody-loser without his Muslim title to keep himself relevant.

    Gay republican politicians not welcome at CPAC:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joz6hvi7VC0


    I can't claim to know what is inside someone's mind. However, I think for some people, it is more important to keep one foot in the door and be seen as "Muslim", even if only by a small minority of "Muslims", than to leave the herd completely. Some progressive types (not Manji, Jasser or anyone else mentioned here as I don't know them personally, but others with whom I have spoken) privately support the right of people to apostatize, and some may even be agnostic or atheistic themselves, but won't say so in public because they either see it as a "cultural" identity or because they are afraid of the backlash or because they hang on to the faith even if only in vague and unorthodox ways.

    We need to be thoughtful when ascribing on to people identities and qualities they have not claimed for themselves. As far as I know, Manji, Jasser etc. are all actually believing Muslims. I have no reason to doubt their word on what they are. Even if I disagree with them on theological/philosophical issues, I think they have the right to identify as Muslims even if they're not following traditional, orthodox Islam. I wish these progressive types well, and I tend to support their efforts, even when they don't / won't openly support people like me.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #10 - April 07, 2013, 03:30 AM

    Quote
    Yep. This.

    You can try TDR, but many have tried before you and been blocked out by so-called Progressive Muslims.



    na.....   

    Theres no point in trying to reach out to them on an individual one on one basis. I was just floating the idea that if CEMB and their organization cooperate they could help create more awareness about sharia courts in Britain and lobby more effectively since they and CEMB are both working towards the same causes like secularism and human rights.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #11 - April 07, 2013, 04:47 AM

    I can't claim to know what is inside someone's mind. However, I think for some people, it is more important to keep one foot in the door and be seen as "Muslim", even if only by a small minority of "Muslims", than to leave the herd completely. Some progressive types (not Manji, Jasser or anyone else mentioned here as I don't know them personally, but others with whom I have spoken) privately support the right of people to apostatize, and some may even be agnostic or atheistic themselves, but won't say so in public because they either see it as a "cultural" identity or because they are afraid of the backlash or because they hang on to the faith even if only in vague and unorthodox ways.

    We need to be thoughtful when ascribing on to people identities and qualities they have not claimed for themselves. As far as I know, Manji, Jasser etc. are all actually believing Muslims. I have no reason to doubt their word on what they are. Even if I disagree with them on theological/philosophical issues, I think they have the right to identify as Muslims even if they're not following traditional, orthodox Islam. I wish these progressive types well, and I tend to support their efforts, even when they don't / won't openly support people like me.


    So you can be completely unorthadox, like that bikini model in TDR's thread, but there is a line, for example denying the shahada, you cannot be Muslim and do that. Even regarding being gay, I remember on a shia site (I think bayynat.org) I read that being secretly gay is fine, just cannot come out with it.
    With Jasser though, by calling hell a metaphor, he crosses the line of Islam because the rules are to believe in Allah, his books, messengers, angels, fate and judgement day. It's not interpretation anymore, like being progressive, but denying the fundamental tenets that overrule the sects.

    Quote
    THE SEVEN BASIC BELIEFS
    There are seven basic beliefs in Islam. They are:

    1. Allah
    2. Angels of Allah (Mala’ikah)
    3. Books of Allah (Kutubullah)
    4. Messengers of Allah (Rusulullah)
    5. The Day of Judgement (Yawmuddin)
    6. Pre-destination or Supremacy of Divine Will (Al-Qadr)
    7. Life after death (Akhirah)

    These beliefs have been declared in Al-Imanul Mufassal (the statement of faith), which is as follows:
    "Amantu Billahi, wa Mala’ikatihi, wa Kutubihi, wa Rusulihi, wal Yawmil Akhiri, wal Qadri Khairihi wa Sharrihi Minal Lahi Ta’ala, wal Ba’thi Ba’dal Mawt."

    Meaning: "I believe in Allah, in His angels, in His books, in His messengers, in the Last Day (Day of Judgement) and in the fact that everything good or bad is decided by Allah, the Almighty, and in the Life after Death."

    http://al-tawbah.faithweb.com/beliefsofislam.htm

    This is his quote saying reform Islam will discard what "radical Muslims" believe about hell, which is a irrelevant scare tactic according to him:

    "These are just metaphors to have Muslims believe that god judges us, that this eschatology that we are discussing has some type of relevance but it's not our relevance...this is god's decision and anybody that interferes becomes god and that it forbidden. "

    The quote starts at 6:40
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7e-NGM6Jms

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Muslims Against Homophobia
     Reply #12 - April 07, 2013, 05:57 AM

    ^^ I agree with everything you're saying - however, I just don't like it when someone ascribes on to me a label I didn't choose for myself, or imposes upon me that a label I did choose for myself is not a valid label. We can argue about the intellectual fine points all day (and we do here) but at the end of the day, I feel it is only a humanistic approach to let people define themselves. This is not an intellectual point, it's a political point. Some reasons I think this way are:

    (A) It's no skin off my nose if someone like Irshad Manji, Zuhdi Jasser, Tarek Fatah, etc. want to incorporate totally unIslamic but pro-human-rights points into their personal definition of being Muslim. I already left Islam, I have no investment in trying to keep its definition "pure".

    (B) I despise it when someone tells me that they "know" me better than I know myself. I figure I shouldn't treat others in a way that I despise being treated as.

    (C) If the progressives manage to influence any positive, progressive change in even a fraction of religious folks, and help make them become more humane, empathic, etc., I don't see a problem with this at all. In fact, I see this as a wonderful, positive accomplishment.

    (D) By insisting that Islam is only what the most orthodox, mainstream, traditional Muslims say it is, I would be giving more power to those types of Muslims, and I have no intention or desire to do that. I'd rather see them lose power over the hearts and minds of other Muslims who may then choose a more humane, rational and progressive path.

    (E) Again, to reiterate, I have nothing, absolutely NOTHING to gain from Islam remaining stuck, unchanged, and puritanical. I have no reason to keep insisting, in the face of those who want to actually reform it, that they ought to kowtow to the Wahaabi strain of Islam, because of some misplaced sense of righteousness.

    (F) Even if progressive Muslim types don't or won't openly support us, their reformist outlooks and activism have the potential to soften what Islam means for upcoming generations of Muslims. In other words, even if they won't come out and outright support or ally with ExMuslims/apostates, the progressive versions of Islam, because they are rooted in a humanistic world-view, are bound to be beneficial to apostates, LGBT people, women etc. While it would be nice, we don't need progressives to hold our hands in order to be alleviated, in the long run, from the extreme abuse and stigma many of us face. Progressivism itself is a good thing, because it is rooted in a more humane way of looking at human relations than traditionalism or orthodoxy or fundamentalism.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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