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 Topic: Margaret Thatcher Died

 (Read 9526 times)
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  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #60 - April 12, 2013, 11:05 AM

    There's no room for nuance on either side, that is the problem

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #61 - April 12, 2013, 12:02 PM

    Couple of interesting links via fb...

    21 Incredibly Angry Songs About Margaret Thatcher
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/angelameiquan/21-incredibly-angry-songs-about-margaret-thatcher
    ^^^ some great songs there I'd forgotten about or hadn't heard before.

    Thatcher stands by Pinochet
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/304516.stm
    ^^^ from the BBC archives.

       Good list , I would also have included
           The Fine Young Cannibals - Blue
        Linton kwesi Johnson  - It dread inna Engaland and , though it doesn't mention Thatcher directly , The Redskins - Keep on Keeping on ( still one of my favourite ever singles)
    I understand the reservations some peolple have about the glee some of us feel at her passing but firstly .since I assume most people here would agree Thatcher herself can't hear us, the main reason for not speaking ill of the dead is consideration for grieving loved ones. I agree with this , but when the bereaved includes a devious psychopath who tries to start coups in foreign countries ,for his own financial and political ends, my sympathy gets a little strained.
    Apart from that , the resaon people are happy is that this country suffered real damage as a result if Thatchers policies. I totally understand the people throwing parties , but I'm saving the champagne for the death of Thatcherism.  I'm not holding my breath.





  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #62 - April 12, 2013, 12:05 PM

    Ishina, Britain was fairly fucked before Thatcher came to power, and not just economically. The Notting Hill riots and punk rock (1976) were not the products of a happy house.

    As I've said before, I loathed her. Despised might be more accurate. Her determined philistinism, a lack of empathy so acute that she didn't even recoil emotionally against apartheid... I could go on, but I'll leave that to others.

    The coal mines were doomed, as were the tin mines of Cornwall and the copper mines of Jordan 5000 years ago. Above the excavated ruins of a fantastically rich Jordanian mining town there are still seams of copper visible to the naked eye. In a poor country, why on earth don't they mine them?

    Was Scargill really more of a democrat than Thatcher, who won unfixed elections and shuffled off obediently when defenestrated by her own party?

    Tired of hearing about the coal mines. Coal mines are a red herring.

    Such talking points cannot be entirely divorced from Thatcher's wider ideological campaign and absolute wholesale and rapid decimation of the underclasses and opposition power bases. Employment wasn't the only front the lower classes were assaulted upon. Employment, primary and secondary education, healthcare, social housing and care, inflation and taxation and other costs of living - all these things and more. It's not just loss of job. It's loss of future, loss of stability, loss of options, loss of recourse and ability to change one's situation, loss of respect and dignity, loss of hope, loss of spirit. It's soul destruction. It's beaten shitless with the Tory truncheon and left to bleed and rot in whatever hole they could crawl into.

    I mean, open your eyes and ears. There are people who have lost an entire decade of their life up here in the North and are still dazed and reeling from it. These people are still living you know. Thatcher didn't just close a few pits. She sucked out the soul of whole communities and many never recovered. Consider the snowball effect of a 10% increase in people below the poverty line for example. That's millions of people. Consider also that the nature of this beast means it is never felt uniformly across the whole nation. It's the underclasses that take all of the brunt of it. It's a catastrophe borne entirely by the poorest and most destitute people, levelled almost entirely at areas where they make up the most population or where they earn a living. For a moment, hold in your mind the idea of people, formerly in employment and earning a good living, having to knock on the doors of their neighbours to beg for food hand outs. Let that thought marinade.

    The reason why the fallout of Thatcher's death is divisive is not because she was a divisive figure. It's because she literally divided the nation. The haves and the have-nots. Oh I'm sure Thatcher was fantastic for the up-and-comers, the Randian macho-fuck opportunists, the already well off, the homeowners with a nice little nest egg, and the 'job creators', or those lucky few on the lower rungs who managed to seize a leg up. But her reign was living hell for so many of the other half. And if you want to say much of this was already in motion before she came to power, consider how much worse it got under Thatcher for those people. The only way she could have caused more damage is if she dropped actual bombs. And after she'd finished making communities derelict, maybe there isn't much difference.

    Perhaps there really is a more innocuous explanation for each individual point of contention. Perhaps it is just an extraordinary coincidence that all these things happened, and peaked, under her watch. Perhaps these things were determined prior to her step up to power, or by factors beyond her control. But I find it much more likely that they are simply the fruits and logical consequence of her ruthless, inhumane, draconian, excessive public policies.

    With her death, it's the meanness of spirit of those rejoicing I can't stand, the grave dancers all piously calling out her meanness of spirit. They are right, but they should look in the mirror too.

    I don't buy it for a second that anyone is genuinely put out by the meanness of spirit. We have thicker skin than that. It just smells like cheap and easy moralising to me.

    And you're gonna have to put up with it anyway, for as long as we have to put up with David Cameron's cartoon concern face telling us how much of an amazing female icon and British heroine she was.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #63 - April 12, 2013, 12:51 PM

    You're not hearing me at all.

    For the record, I largely agree with you.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #64 - April 12, 2013, 12:55 PM

    Yeah, I am. I just went off on a rant.

    For the record, it was not all aimed at you personally.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #65 - April 12, 2013, 12:57 PM

    And I still love ya.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #66 - April 12, 2013, 01:13 PM

    Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead is the number one single on iTunes UK :/

    free |frē| - Not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #67 - April 12, 2013, 07:03 PM

    In the last few years I've become alienated from the Left because of its stance on various issues including secularism and pandering to religious identity politics, cultural relativism etc etc.

    I can't stand posturing Lefties. But the whole hagiography of Thatcher is bringing a long dormant fury to the surface. I just can't stand the sight of these Tories like Lousie Mensch and others and their smarmy arrogant Sun newspaper shithouses waving their Thatcher flags in the air. Its turning me into a militant again.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #68 - April 13, 2013, 06:46 AM

    In the last few years I've become alienated from the Left because ...................
    .................................................


    you don't need to be left and you don't need to be right to tell truth..

    Truth To Be Told....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #69 - April 13, 2013, 10:12 AM

    Woah! That Glenda Jackson, what a speaker.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #70 - April 13, 2013, 10:57 AM

    Woah! That Glenda Jackson, what a speaker.

     She is not only a great speaker.. SHE IS BEAUTY WITH BRAIN.. In her  times .. every guy walking on the road must have looked at her

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPjHd9XaK6M

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #71 - April 13, 2013, 10:36 PM

    She's a first rate actress. She knows how to get her lines right.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #72 - April 14, 2013, 12:33 AM

    Tariq Ali (pbuh) on Thatcher:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdIQfSICS5o

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #73 - April 14, 2013, 07:41 AM

    the whole hagiography of Thatcher is bringing a long dormant fury to the surface. I just can't stand the sight of these Tories like Lousie Mensch and others and their smarmy arrogant Sun newspaper shithouses waving their Thatcher flags in the air. Its turning me into a militant again.

    Sorry to rub your nose in it, but I have missed all that. No British papers, no British TV and nothing but grave-dancing lefties on my Twitter timeline. Bliss.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #74 - April 14, 2013, 11:25 AM

    In the last few years I've become alienated from the Left because of its stance on various issues including secularism and pandering to religious identity politics, cultural relativism etc etc.

    Are you me?

    Such talking points cannot be entirely divorced from Thatcher's wider ideological campaign and absolute wholesale and rapid decimation of the underclasses and opposition power bases. Employment wasn't the only front the lower classes were assaulted upon. Employment, primary and secondary education, healthcare, social housing and care, inflation and taxation and other costs of living - all these things and more. It's not just loss of job. It's loss of future, loss of stability, loss of options, loss of recourse and ability to change one's situation, loss of respect and dignity, loss of hope, loss of spirit. It's soul destruction.


    Is that the Britain of today you are referring to above as well? How much influence did, in your opinion, Thatcherism have on shaping what Britain is today? How many of the issues you mentioned are still relevant today?
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #75 - April 14, 2013, 02:11 PM

    Quote
    Are you me?


    I dunno mate, I've been so distracted by Lefty tossers the last few years I took my eye off the ball I reckon.

    Horrible people.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #76 - April 15, 2013, 11:35 PM

    Is that the Britain of today you are referring to above as well? How much influence did, in your opinion, Thatcherism have on shaping what Britain is today? How many of the issues you mentioned are still relevant today?

    Dunno. I'm not really informed enough to say. I can't even begin to guess how much lasting damage a decade of stagnation inflicts upon the poorest areas of Britain.

    Economic inequality has stayed more or less as bad as it was under Thatcher. The massive growth of unemployment resulting from Thatcher's policies made lasting changes in how much money is spent on social security. The current Tory government has forced some cuts, I suppose in some kind of ham-fisted effort to reign it in, which is another kick in the teeth of the already poor.

    Moreover, not only are the poor literally, measurably impoverished, but they are also now cultural scapegoats for the state of modern Britain (along with immigrants). The unemployed, those on welfare, single mothers who get state help, and so on, are utterly demonised by mainstream media and talking heads. The Tories and upper class must think all their paydays have come at once now that the plebs are turning on each other. A nice distraction while they smuggle handouts to the biggest welfare claimants of all: corporations and banks.

    There was also a massive decrease in social housing under Thatcher that still remains to this day.  The waiting list to get council houses is just ridiculous now. Massive chunks of available social housing were sold off. Massive rises in regular house prices too and fundamental changes to how the market operates. Someone like me has absolutely no chance of getting on the property ladder in the foreseeable future. I'm stuck in a shared student house (one of my housemates isn't even a student anymore), racking up debt. When my fiance is based at home again, we'll probably get a place together. And if that happens, I'm relying entirely upon him. If I was single and independent, no chance. There is a huge push towards having multiple families in the same property, too. It's one of the only ways the poorest can afford the cost of living, especially those on benefits. New cuts in benefits absolutely necessitates more rat-maze ghettoisation, with people crammed into the same property and sharing expenses – something resembling the Victoria era. Meanwhile, whole streets lie empty and boarded up.

    Then there is the obvious effect of Thatcher's all-out drive for privatisation. The massive drop in industry contribution to the GDP, etc. It's a more significant drop than other industrialised nations. This profound, lasting, fundamental shift in how the nation operates is irreversible now I suppose. That genie is out of the bottle. I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing. Though, there is something to be said about the visible effects, with towns and communities as dead as Chernobyl. Plus long-term unemployed stuck in a rut with nowhere to go.

    I don't even care to be more informed either. I don't even give a fuck about the numbers, the nuances, the finer points. It can never be justified in my eyes to drain and marginalise the poor so much. The idea of higher purpose, necessary measures, greater good has no currency with me in such a case. There is no greater good happening if the most destitute and most vulnerable are the ones to suffer and foot the bill. That's simply a great evil.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #77 - April 20, 2013, 01:16 AM

    Australia’s Foreign Minister brands Margaret Thatcher racist

    Quote
    Former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher made “unabashedly racist” comments during a conversation with Bob Carr, the Foreign Affairs Minister has told Lateline.

    Thatcher died on Monday morning (UK time) at the age of 87 and will be accorded a ceremonial funeral at London’s St Paul’s Cathedral next week.

    Senator Carr says he was “astonished” when Thatcher, dubbed the ‘Iron Lady’ during her time in 10 Downing Street, told him that Australia would end up like Fiji if it continued to allow Asian migrants in.

    Senator Carr’s Malaysian-born wife Helena was in the room at the time.

    “I was astonished,” Senator Carr told Lateline last night.

    “Helena, fortunately, was out of ear shot.

    “I remember one thing she said as part of that conversation, she said: ‘You will end up like Fiji.’

    “She said, ‘I like Sydney but you can’t allow the migrants’ – and in context she meant Asian migration – ‘to take over, otherwise you will end up like Fiji where the Indian migrants have taken over.’

    “I was so astonished I don’t think I could think of an appropriate reply. I think we moved on to other subjects pretty quickly.

    “It reminded me that despite, yes, her greatness on those big questions, the role of the state, the evil nature of Communist totalitarianism, there was an old-fashioned quality to her that was entirely out of touch and probably explained why her party removed her in the early 90s.

    “But I don’t say that in any way to diminish the respect I felt for her because of the boldness of her political leadership. She deserves credit for that, and that should be uppermost in our thoughts today.”

    The conversation happened after Thatcher’s retirement from politics.

    Opposition’s foreign affairs spokeswoman Julie Bishop has demanded Senator Carr apologise for his comments.

    Ms Bishop says it was a graceless and cowardly attack on Lady Thatcher’s reputation just hours after she died.

    She says Senator Carr showed a complete lack of sensitivity and must immediately apologise to the Thatcher family.
    Source: ABC News – Carr ‘astonished’ by Thatcher’s ‘racist’ comments
     

    Former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher made “unabashedly racist” comments during a conversation with Bob Carr, the Foreign Affairs Minister has told Lateline.

    Thatcher died on Monday morning (UK time) at the age of 87 and will be accorded a ceremonial funeral at London’s St Paul’s Cathedral next week.
    Audio: Home town divided over Thatcher’s death (AM)

    Senator Carr says he was “astonished” when Thatcher, dubbed the ‘Iron Lady’ during her time in 10 Downing Street, told him that Australia would end up like Fiji if it continued to allow Asian migrants in.

    Senator Carr’s Malaysian-born wife Helena was in the room at the time.

    “I was astonished,” Senator Carr told Lateline last night.

    “Helena, fortunately, was out of ear shot.

    “I remember one thing she said as part of that conversation, she said: ‘You will end up like Fiji.’

    “She said, ‘I like Sydney but you can’t allow the migrants’ – and in context she meant Asian migration – ‘to take over, otherwise you will end up like Fiji where the Indian migrants have taken over.’

    “I was so astonished I don’t think I could think of an appropriate reply. I think we moved on to other subjects pretty quickly.

    “It reminded me that despite, yes, her greatness on those big questions, the role of the state, the evil nature of Communist totalitarianism, there was an old-fashioned quality to her that was entirely out of touch and probably explained why her party removed her in the early 90s.

    “But I don’t say that in any way to diminish the respect I felt for her because of the boldness of her political leadership. She deserves credit for that, and that should be uppermost in our thoughts today.”

    The conversation happened after Thatcher’s retirement from politics.

    Opposition’s foreign affairs spokeswoman Julie Bishop has demanded Senator Carr apologise for his comments.

    Ms Bishop says it was a graceless and cowardly attack on Lady Thatcher’s reputation just hours after she died.

    She says Senator Carr showed a complete lack of sensitivity and must immediately apologise to the Thatcher family.


    http://craighill.net/2013/04/10/australias-foreign-minister-brands-margaret-thatcher-racist/

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #78 - April 20, 2013, 01:23 AM

    Australia’s Foreign Minister brands Margaret Thatcher racist

    http://craighill.net/2013/04/10/australias-foreign-minister-brands-margaret-thatcher-racist/

    indeed she was... whole world knows....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #79 - April 20, 2013, 01:27 AM

    Julie Bishop should learn when to STFU. And get a new helmet FFS. grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #80 - April 20, 2013, 12:43 PM

    Dunno. I'm not really informed enough to say.

    Thatcher once remarked that her greatest achievement is New Labour - even her political opponents adopted her basic economic policies. This is one of the reasons why I find the criticism of her economic policies when it comes to various Labour pundits that are still in power exceptionally shallow and hypocritical.

    A nice distraction while they smuggle handouts to the biggest welfare claimants of all: corporations and banks.

    True that, in absolute terms the issue is not the poor leeching on the productive members of the society but rather the elite squeezing everybody and assigning the blame in a typical divide and conquer way. 
    Even though stating that the poor are utterly demonised by 'mainstream media' is a bit harsh. Guardian, Independent and New Statesman certainly don't belong to that group.

    But more to the point - I find your analysis of social issues in contemporary Britain somewhat surprising. In my opinion Britain is quite an egalitarian society where those who seek opportunities for personal growth and development in terms of education, jobs, access to social services, etc are able to find these opportunities and make real progress in relatively short time. It's true that those who were born into money and have connections have it much, much easier than everybody else but there are genuine opportunities out there (imo plenty even) even for those that are on the very bottom in this society.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #81 - April 22, 2013, 07:27 AM

    Even though stating that the poor are utterly demonised by 'mainstream media' is a bit harsh. Guardian, Independent and New Statesman certainly don't belong to that group.

    That's why the Guardian is my first choice news outlet.

    In my opinion Britain is quite an egalitarian society where those who seek opportunities for personal growth and development in terms of education, jobs, access to social services, etc are able to find these opportunities and make real progress in relatively short time.

    In theory, it ought to be. In practice, the set of options and recourse available in idealised egalitarianism simply do not appear uniformly across the nation. There is significant difference in unemployment rates region to region. It's not because there is any difference in work ethic or aspiration to certain areas, but because of disparity in opportunity. And education and social services are actual physical structures of varying degree of existence, quality, resources, personnel, depending on where in Britain you happen to be standing at the time.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #82 - April 22, 2013, 07:46 AM

    But then Ishina, I have a feeling some feel like 'why should I move for work', so therefore do not move from where they originate for work, when they should.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #83 - April 22, 2013, 07:55 AM

    Talk me through the process and logistics of whole regions of people moving to another regions.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #84 - April 22, 2013, 02:50 PM

    Ishina it would not be everyone from regions moving around, it would be a selection, and it would be up to people to find their own way to their new job. They would apply obviously before moving. I do agree that there should be industry attracted in to some areas where there is no work cause that is partly why Britain is as it is now, there is little manual industrial work any more for people who are better doing hands on stuff. I just think that if people can find work elsewhere where there are more jobs then they should move and perhaps the govt fund some of the moving costs.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #85 - April 22, 2013, 03:22 PM

    Talk me through the process and logistics of whole regions of people moving to another regions.

    Detroit is becoming a ghost town as Memphis (Egypt) did before it. It's always happened.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #86 - April 22, 2013, 04:01 PM

    Ishina it would not be everyone from regions moving around, it would be a selection, and it would be up to people to find their own way to their new job.

    It's a redundant point then. Of course individuals can capitalise on their own particular experience and make their situation better. The discussion was on a national and regional scale though. In greater numbers, there is greater displacement.

    Are you both saying there are jobs and homes for everyone in England if the population just shifts around a bit?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #87 - April 22, 2013, 04:16 PM

    Are you... saying there are jobs and homes for everyone in England if the population just shifts around a bit?

    No. Just that populations have always shifted.

    Much as I love people, I'd like to see Britain with a population of 20 or 30 million, a lot more trees and plenty of wild boar.


    (Wild boar stew is the food of the Gods.)
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #88 - April 22, 2013, 04:20 PM

    Yeah. Overpopulation isn't going away any time soon.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Margaret Thatcher Died
     Reply #89 - April 22, 2013, 04:29 PM

    I have A Modest Proposal to sort that out.
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »