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Theme Changer

 Topic: Political views

 (Read 11537 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Political views
     OP - April 09, 2013, 02:06 PM

    Does it really matter for one to have that?

    If its yes, why?

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Political views
     Reply #1 - April 09, 2013, 02:44 PM

    We all have political views. If you're not active about them, you're passively supporting the status quo and are therefore a conservative.
  • Political views
     Reply #2 - April 09, 2013, 05:10 PM

    So how does one take a stand when different ideologies don't agree with each other on what facts is and tend to dismiss facts and data presented by the critics and the opposition.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Political views
     Reply #3 - April 09, 2013, 07:47 PM

    "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

    I don't think having an ideology has much to do with facts, but rather we interpret the facts based on our ideologies.
  • Political views
     Reply #4 - April 09, 2013, 08:26 PM

    I see

    Is it unusual for one to have mixed political views deriving from ideologies that are contradictory to each other fundamentally yet adopt few elements of both?. For example I find some aspects of capitalism appealing despite the bad sides of it and I also find few aspects of anarchism appealing.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Political views
     Reply #5 - April 09, 2013, 08:33 PM

    If you're not active about them, you're passively supporting the status quo and are therefore a conservative.

    Huh? How's that work?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #6 - April 09, 2013, 09:26 PM

    I see

    Is it unusual for one to have mixed political views deriving from ideologies that are contradictory to each other fundamentally yet adopt few elements of both?. For example I find some aspects of capitalism appealing despite the bad sides of it and I also find few aspects of anarchism appealing.

    I don't think all aspects of capitalism and anarchism are mutually exclusive. Both believe in social liberty, for example. But you would need to elaborate on what you believe in for me to understand what you're trying to say.

    Huh? How's that work?

    If you don't act to change things, you are by default maintaining the status quo. And most people who claim they don't care about politics tend to hold conservative views.
  • Political views
     Reply #7 - April 09, 2013, 09:29 PM

    Quote
    If you don't act to change things, you are by default maintaining the status quo. And most people who claim they don't care about politics tend to hold conservative views.


    That’s a catchy catchphrase, but I have to call you out on it. Do you have any statistics to support this?
  • Political views
     Reply #8 - April 09, 2013, 09:34 PM

    No.
  • Political views
     Reply #9 - April 09, 2013, 09:37 PM

    Fair enough. Thanks for being honest. And we know what they say about ideas that can be asserted without evidence.
  • Political views
     Reply #10 - April 09, 2013, 09:39 PM

    I think you are missing my main point. The second part was an addendum. What I'm saying is that not being politically active means you are supporting the status quo, which in practice makes you a conservative.
  • Political views
     Reply #11 - April 09, 2013, 09:45 PM

    If you don't act to change things, you are by default maintaining the status quo.

    Whether a person is politically active or not says nothing about their worldview.

    And most people who claim they don't care about politics tend to hold conservative views.

    You have a very different field of view to me, then. Most people I know who don't care about politics, simply don't care about politics. So any charge against them of conservative views would be petty-minded and ultimately redundant.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #12 - April 09, 2013, 09:50 PM

    No, I understood your point fully. By not doing anything, however, I think that you are simply not doing anything. That does not automatically translate into active support for the status quo. There are many people I know (this is obviously not decisive evidence) who simply do not care about politics. They are, in practice, quite liberal in all regards. They are just generally apathetic to the political process.

    There is also something to be said about expertise. There are some issues that are simply not within every individual’s field of comprehension. If that person decides to abstain from the political process because of a lack of information or a lack of understanding of what endorsing and supporting one particular position or another would result in, then I think that’s a respectable position to have. It is not a show of support for the status quo.

    While I concede that by not doing anything, you are not changing the status quo. To leap from that to saying that you are supporting the status quo and are a conservative, is, in my opinion, unfounded. It reminds me of the “with us or against us” arguments of more unfortunate years.
  • Political views
     Reply #13 - April 09, 2013, 09:52 PM

    Ninja'd by Ishina!...More eloquent and succinct than I could ever hope to be. 
  • Political views
     Reply #14 - April 09, 2013, 10:14 PM

    That does not automatically translate into active support for the status quo.

    I did not say this. There's a difference between active and passive support.

    But wouldn't you say that in an unjust system, everyone has an obligation to change it, otherwise they are part of the problem? Apathy is part of the problem. Being apathetic makes one complacent.
  • Political views
     Reply #15 - April 09, 2013, 10:21 PM

    Passive support for something unjust can only really be a charge leveled at those who are actively witness to something unjust and do not act upon the moment.

    Some people genuinely just do not give a single fuck which muppet in a suit is running things and are happy with their slice of life. This is not passive participation in politics. This is the luxury any stable civilisation should be aiming for across all walks of life.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #16 - April 09, 2013, 10:24 PM

    Some people are too busy struggling to make a living, work and save for their children, to do anything active in politics other than vote every four years.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Political views
     Reply #17 - April 09, 2013, 10:25 PM

    I did not say this. There's a difference between active and passive support.

    But wouldn't you say that in an unjust system, everyone has an obligation to change it, otherwise they are part of the problem? Apathy is part of the problem. Being apathetic makes one complacent.


    This is a slippery slope, don’t you think? There are many issues that I am “passively” silent about that I do not necessarily support. I understand the point you are making. In the face of an urgent need for action, it can be useful to remind people that doing nothing can be wasted opportunity. To say that people who just don't care about politics or who don’t understand the process and therefore abstain are supporting the status quo or more, that they are conservative, is still not correct.  
  • Political views
     Reply #18 - April 09, 2013, 10:30 PM

    Some people are too busy struggling to make a living, work and save for their children, to do anything active in politics other than vote every four years.

    Yep. And to some, there is no discernible difference to their lives whichever guy they vote for.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #19 - April 09, 2013, 10:37 PM

    Some people are too busy struggling to make a living, work and save for their children, to do anything active in politics other than vote every four years.

    No one is too busy to watch a news report and form an opinion. I didn't say you need to be out in the streets.

    If you live in a system, you either support it by participating in it, or you oppose it by fighting against it. Or at the very least you participate in it, knowing that it is incredibly difficult to get out of, but recognize the injustice of the system and would fight against it if the opportunity presents itself.

    There is no such thing as not being engaged in politics. Politics is how humans relate to each other. Your definition is too narrow.
  • Political views
     Reply #20 - April 09, 2013, 10:42 PM

    Nah, your definition of passive support is too broad.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #21 - April 09, 2013, 10:49 PM

    Yeah, it would indict decent people whose circumstances disallow from being actively participants in political activism.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Political views
     Reply #22 - April 09, 2013, 10:50 PM

    I think it's more about having some kind of opinion that is what the OP was about. Not necessarily about going to the streets to protest or running for office or whatnot.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Political views
     Reply #23 - April 09, 2013, 10:51 PM

    Very few are apathetic towards politics because they're content with things. I think Ishina/billy/HM has illustrated that by now.

    I'm certainly not apathetic towards politics, but I can't claim to belong to any political movement or ideology either. I don't feel like I need to locate my self anywhere on the political spectrum in that way. What I rather ask people (and like to be asked myself) is the principles they abide by. If you're all in for freedom of speech, an undisputed separation of church and state (for example) and a contempt for the reactionary and the superstitious, we can claim for each other the virtue of being on the same boat, thus far at least.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Political views
     Reply #24 - April 09, 2013, 10:56 PM

    That's also what I am saying, allat.

    But ultimately, we all engage in politics.

    I believe it is wrong and homophobic to use words such as "gay" and "faggot" as an insult. Someone who says they don't care is essentially saying they will use such words whenever they feel like doing so. And when they do use those words, they are perpetuating the problem.

    People either use or don't use those words. There's no in-between. And either way, it's a political position.
  • Political views
     Reply #25 - April 09, 2013, 11:03 PM

    And in that context, what would being politically active look like? What would a person do in that scenario in order to be considered "politically active" and to not be considered a passive homophobe?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #26 - April 09, 2013, 11:05 PM

    And there was me thinking that politics was a redundant system and that it didn't really matter which grey man/woman in a suit was pretending to be in charge because after all aren't we all really just living in a "Bankocracy"? <Tsk> Or am I merely making a straw man point in a question format?
  • Political views
     Reply #27 - April 09, 2013, 11:09 PM

    And in that context, what would being politically active look like? What would a person do in that scenario in order to be considered "politically active" and to not be considered a passive homophobe?

    You would already be active by taking a stance and refusing to use such words.

    Being politically active doesn't just mean being physically active by going out in the streets, etc. Being active means being aware, being mentally active.
  • Political views
     Reply #28 - April 09, 2013, 11:10 PM

    That's also what I am saying, allat.

    But ultimately, we all engage in politics.

    I believe it is wrong and homophobic to use words such as "gay" and "faggot" as an insult. Someone who says they don't care is essentially saying they will use such words whenever they feel like doing so. And when they do use those words, they are perpetuating the problem.

    People either use or don't use those words. There's no in-between. And either way, it's a political position.


    Well yeah, of course... I think some people are presuming that you're talking about the only way to be politically involved is in quitting their jobs, and going to spend all their time camped out at protests or something.

    In fact the definition of "conservatism" is wanting to preserve the "status quo" - i.e. being fine with the way things are currently. I think every person is conservative in some aspects and progressive (working towards change) in other aspects. To what extent we are conservative or progressive, and in which areas (e.g. social, economic, domestic, foreign policy, specific issues, etc.), and how much those areas of life are important to us, is, I think, how we see ourselves as conservative or liberal/progressive.

    Also, yes people's apathy does translate into keeping the status quo going, which amounts to a kind of passive conservatism. This is all very complex, though, and it's hard to keep talking about these things only in the abstract sense.

    E.g. what's happening with Monsanto: most people don't know much about, even though it affects the lives of almost everyone on this planet. Yet most people won't do anything, including trying to find out what is the problem around that company.

    There's often a sense of helplessness involved too. Most of us believe there's little or nothing we can do to change things, so why bother worrying about them too much.

    Of course that's not true. Otherwise nothing would have changed in human history.

    Anyway, usually there are a handful of issues that do create a desire in most people to do something about things. E.g. in the case of most people in this forum it's religion vs. secularism which is a very important political topic. Not everyone will agree on other topics here, but that's to be expected.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Political views
     Reply #29 - April 09, 2013, 11:34 PM

    You would already be active by taking a stance and refusing to use such words.

    Being politically active doesn't just mean being physically active by going out in the streets, etc. Being active means being aware, being mentally active.

    Well I've heard of slacktivism, but being mentally active takes "I'm politically active" to new levels of redundancy.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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