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Theme Changer

 Topic: Political views

 (Read 11519 times)
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  • Political views
     Reply #60 - April 10, 2013, 07:43 AM

    Oz: What I'm saying is that theory is irrelevant if it's not put into practice in some shape or form.

    Ishina: I never said "conservative political views". Again, views are irrelevant if they are not put into practice.

    And I did not say "not partaking in political endeavors". But that's just indicative of you not actually reading what I've been saying. Because I've said it a hundred and one times that we're all involved in politics.
  • Political views
     Reply #61 - April 10, 2013, 07:45 AM

    Boody: take the old South African regime for an example. By your definition, the majority of black people in South Africa under the apartheid regime were conservatives who supported the status quo. Does this sound plausible?

    ETA: And you could take slavery in the US as a second example. Food for thought?

    They must have been politically aware of their situation, though.

    Derp.

    I am just repeating myself over and over again.
  • Political views
     Reply #62 - April 10, 2013, 07:46 AM

    Ok, if that sounds plausible, I give up. parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Political views
     Reply #63 - April 10, 2013, 07:48 AM

    I just said yes because I'm agitated. I've repeated myself 100 times.

    I give up too.
  • Political views
     Reply #64 - April 10, 2013, 07:50 AM

    Ishina: I never said "conservative political views". Again, views are irrelevant if they are not put into practice.

    Yeah, you did. Here for example

    If you don't act to change things, you are by default maintaining the status quo. And most people who claim they don't care about politics tend to hold conservative views.


    And not only did you say it, but you absolutely solidify that sentiment when you say a person is a conservative. To claim otherwise is being disingenuous.

    And I did not say "not partaking in political endeavors". But that's just indicative of you not actually reading what I've been saying. Because I've said it a hundred and one times that we're all involved in politics.

    Don't blame your faulty logic on a lack of reading ability on my part.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #65 - April 10, 2013, 07:51 AM

    And I did not say "not partaking in political endeavors".

    Not exactly. What you actually said was this:

    We all have political views. If you're not active about them, you're passively supporting the status quo and are therefore a conservative.

    So no, by that standard merely being aware would not be sufficient to avoid being a conservative. (So there Tongue)

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Political views
     Reply #66 - April 10, 2013, 07:56 AM

    I also said that that second sentence was an addendum and dismissed it immediately after happymurtad pointed it out.

    Also, being a conservative doesn't mean holding conservative views. It means having an influence on the world that leads to maintaining the status quo. As I have said already, views are irrelevant if not put into practice.

    I am a conservative if I have radical views that I do nothing with and go on living life participating in society like everything is fine and dandy and nothing needs to be changed.
  • Political views
     Reply #67 - April 10, 2013, 07:57 AM

    Can you like please do me the favour of reading everything I've said before responding? Because I've already addressed that.
  • Political views
     Reply #68 - April 10, 2013, 08:02 AM

    Also, being a conservative doesn't mean holding conservative views.

    On the planet most of us live on, it bloody well does. Really. Your definition is not one that most people would recognise.


    Quote
    It means having an influence on the world that leads to maintaining the status quo. As I have said already, views are irrelevant if not put into practice.

    Even that is a dodgey assertion. Most changes take time to gain enough momentum to be pushed through. That time is filled with people forming views without actually acting on them. Without that step, you probably wont get the change.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Political views
     Reply #69 - April 10, 2013, 08:05 AM

    I also said that that second sentence was an addendum and dismissed it immediately after happymurtad pointed it out.

    Also, being a conservative doesn't mean holding conservative views. It means having an influence on the world that leads to maintaining the status quo. As I have said already, views are irrelevant if not put into practice.

    On what planet can you genuinely expect people to know you mean "maintaining the status quo" when you call someone a conservative in a political discussion?

    Moreover, even the accusation of "maintaining the status quo" is yet to be justified. And is derogatory in this sense. Your initial sentiments are that of condemnation of those who are passive or non-participants, therefore conservative by default. Like some kind of fist-in-the-air rebel "If you're not with us, you're against us!" And now you seem to be backpedaling out of that via the dubious claim that you meant something innocuous all along.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #70 - April 10, 2013, 08:10 AM

    Oz, I am going to go back to my example of homophobic language. If I think using homophobic language is wrong but still use it, my views would be irrelevant, as my practice overshadows them.

    If someone was an anti-capitalist, they might still engage in capitalism because they recognize it is still difficult to escape but still try to do something anti-capitalist, even if it's as small as donating to an anti-capitalist organization.

    I have said this from the very beginning of this thread: My idea of what "activism" is is very broad. Heck, even trying to convince someone of your views might be considered activism.
  • Political views
     Reply #71 - April 10, 2013, 08:11 AM

    Quote
    On what planet can you genuinely expect people to know you mean "maintaining the status quo" when you call someone a conservative in a political discussion?

    Ummm... I said it explicitly several times.

    Quote
    Your initial sentiments are that of condemnation of those who are passive or non-participants

    I did not put any emotion into it.

    As allat said:

    "It's kind of like Newton's 1st law of motion - without resistance, things will continue in the direction they're going. If you choose to act in any way to resist that trajectory, you are already not being passive in your politics anymore."

    I am not saying "You're either with us or against us." In practice I maintain the status quo in many ways, because I don't act on all my political views.
  • Political views
     Reply #72 - April 10, 2013, 08:17 AM

    But that's not the only singular point you've made. You've also asserted that they are a conservative by default, a conservative in practice, that they are part of a problem, that they are not acting upon an obligation, that they are supporting an unjust system if they do not actively oppose it to a degree you find satisfactory. These things add up. You're saying a hell of a lot more in sum total.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #73 - April 10, 2013, 08:24 AM

    I did say those things. But you're making it seem that I'm taking a holier-than-thou attitude, when I openly state that my attitude makes me complacent as well. I am part of the problem. I am not saying "You're either with us or against us."
  • Political views
     Reply #74 - April 10, 2013, 08:28 AM

    Well, whatever. It still does not follow that a non-participant is a conservative in any useful or relevant sense of the word.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #75 - April 10, 2013, 08:29 AM

    Quote
    non-participant

    ...and you continue to make it evident that you have not actually read what I said.
  • Political views
     Reply #76 - April 10, 2013, 08:44 AM

    Sure. I'm just pulling random responses out of my arse.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #77 - April 10, 2013, 08:58 AM

    But seriously, I know you want to define participation in politics to be so broad as to include things like buying products and arguing online, but that defines it into redundancy.

    Meanwhile, you are also making tangential points about "inaction", "not being active", "being passive". It's no great shift in notion for me to refer to that as "non-participation". Certainly not enough of a shift for you to conclude I'm not reading what you are saying.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #78 - April 10, 2013, 09:37 AM

    I'm not politically active because I don't quite understand/follow all the political details, but I do have views that seem to align with liberalism from what I've read about.

    @OP: Everybody has a political view, whether they've identified it or not.

    I've never generally been interested in politics either because it appears very manipulative and lots of bullshitting about, plus I'm not knowledgeable in the history etc that would influence things. Gaining a better understanding and appreciation of it over time though (being exposed to topics through the ex-muslim community mainly has sparked up more interest), but I never had any base-angle to approach politics with -neither from friends, family or school.

    It all just seemed like something *out-there* that I can't do a damn thing about, so I got on with my life.

    To start up down this line of understanding politics has always been a bit daunting too, considering all the history, politicians, global affairs...etc etc.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Political views
     Reply #79 - April 10, 2013, 02:15 PM

    Then you need to be clearer what you mean. Some single mum with two kids and debt up to her eyeballs is not magically a proponent of conservative politics just because she has more pressing issues than politics.


    Again, you seem to be thinking there is something grand and out of the ordinary about politics. Like the cliched single mom with 2 kids and debt is not being political in her everyday choices and in the fact that she is part of a larger economic political landscape that keeps her in debt, and a larger socio-political landscape that keeps her status as a single mom relatively stigmatized.

    You do seem to be confusing conservatism (keeping the status flow going) with being a member of (a) Conservative party. I don't know if you are truly confused about the difference or if you're just doing it to have something to argue about, but I think you do understand the difference, as I explained in the rest of my post that you quote:

    E.g. if you are for gay rights and yet you say nothing when people around you use the word gay as a derogatory term, and you say nothing when someone says that gay people are just sick, and you do nothing to show that you are for the equal rights of gay people, you are, in your passivity, in your silence, allowing homophobia to go unchallenged around you. Hence that is essentially passive conservatism, not in the sense that you are actively trying to keep the status quo going, but because you are not saying or doing anything at all to change the status quo.

    It's kind of like Newton's 1st law of motion - without resistance, things will continue in the direction they're going. If you choose to act in any way to resist that trajectory, you are already not being passive in your politics anymore.


    The example of the single mom perfectly explains what I've been saying all along. Politics is NOT about giving up the rest of your personal life and going and camping out in front of the House of Commons in the rain forever. Politics is about your everyday choices in what you do and say, and every one is already engaged in some way or another, depending on the areas of life that she or he values.

    The single mom may not care so much about e.g. the debates over capitalism but may be involved in a local single mom's advocacy group that goes after dead beat dads, or she may be getting counseling for having been abused and possibly become a counselor herself one day. She may decide to go back to school once her kids are grown up and get involved in tuition hike protests. She most likely will also express her politics by teaching her kids about issues that matter (to her).

    Point is, nobody is exempt from politics, as politics is about the power relations between people. Not everyone is going to be in the same position in any society, whether it's engagement on a political level, or their stance on various issues. That is the point, actually, because we are all products of power relations that have been going on since long before us as individuals. That doesn't mean we are not all part of the politics of our locality, society, etc.

    What does "passive support" even look like? "Support" as a word carries meaningful connotation, not least of which is the implied active effort or approval.



    support
    sup·port
    verb (used with object)
    1.
    to bear or hold up (a load, mass, structure, part, etc.); serve as a foundation for.
    2.
    to sustain or withstand (weight, pressure, strain, etc.) without giving way; serve as a prop for.
    3.
    to undergo or endure, especially with patience or submission; tolerate.
    4.
    to sustain (a person, the mind, spirits, courage, etc.) under trial or affliction: They supported him throughout his ordeal.
    5.
    to maintain (a person, family, establishment, institution, etc.) by supplying with things necessary to existence; provide for: to support a family.

    Most of these are actually a passive act, i.e. one doesn't have to be out there holding banners and being caught on tape to be supportive of something. Support literally means keeping something propped up, sustaining something.

    E.g. Many Muslims will claim that just because they don't say anything against the anti-apostasy rhetoric Islam preaches, and they don't do anything with their words, choices or actions to show they support freedom of conscience for apostates, that that does not mean they support the rhetoric that says apostasy is a crime and apostates should be killed. However, whatever they may think in their minds, if they do nothing to express it, the lack of doing something, anything about it effectively means they let the apostasy stigma and persecution go on. Their apathy and lack of any kind of action translates into other Muslims remaining complacent about it too. That IS a political stance even if the Muslims in question insist that they don't really support apostasy punishments. If they don't do anything about it, they effectively let those Salafis, orthodox Muslims etc. who are doing something about it win.

    I am sorry if this is all disturbing. Politics IS disturbing. You realize that we are part of larger power structures and it's not pretty and comforting and cute. But the fact is complacence is compliance. We can't all be involved in everything, but it's a good idea to be involved in things that matter to us to the extent that we can be involved and active, instead of being passive supporters of the status quo.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Political views
     Reply #80 - April 10, 2013, 03:06 PM

    I wonder if the disconnect here is what we mean by the word “politics.” Your position makes sense, Allat, given way that you understand the word. If you understand it as participation in the specific frameworks of the governmental process, and indeed, caring about them and understanding them, then Ishina’s arguments make sense. 
  • Political views
     Reply #81 - April 10, 2013, 03:11 PM

    I'm not politically active because I don't quite understand/follow all the political details, but I do have views that seem to align with liberalism from what I've read about.

    @OP: Everybody has a political view, whether they've identified it or not.

    I've never generally been interested in politics either because it appears very manipulative and lots of bullshitting about, plus I'm not knowledgeable in the history etc that would influence things. Gaining a better understanding and appreciation of it over time though (being exposed to topics through the ex-muslim community mainly has sparked up more interest), but I never had any base-angle to approach politics with -neither from friends, family or school.

    It all just seemed like something *out-there* that I can't do a damn thing about, so I got on with my life.

    To start up down this line of understanding politics has always been a bit daunting too, considering all the history, politicians, global affairs...etc etc.


    That's understandable and it's what most of us feel at some point or another. I tend to be quite vocal about some issues but there are a shit ton of other issues I don't know much about and I try not to speak too strongly about things I don't know that much about.

    I think it's a good idea to just start with the issues that you have a gut reaction to - to read up about it. search on the Internet for resources, papers, studies, reports, articles etc. The more you learn about what other people's opinions are and their reasons for them, the more refined your opinion becomes, in general. There are so many issues, you can pick whatever makes you feel passionate, whether it's secularism, human rights, poverty, in/equality, education, war, information access etc. etc. Just go with what moves you and makes you care about the larger world you live in. Politics is about realizing that we are individuals part of much larger socially constructed power structures. We have our individual agency and we are interconnected with others and interdependent upon others. Knowing that, the specific issues that matter to each of us will be different, and that is perfectly okay. It is, I think, is a good place to start...

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Political views
     Reply #82 - April 10, 2013, 03:27 PM

    I wonder if the disconnect here is what we mean by the word “politics.” Your position makes sense, Allat, given way that you understand the word. If you understand it as participation in the specific frameworks of the governmental process, and indeed, caring about them and understanding them, then Ishina’s arguments make sense. 


    That is true. Thanks for that!

    Yes, politics is institutionalized in specific frameworks that are contextually based in specific times and places. And politics is also the way those institutions and frameworks affect us in our lives and how we can affect them in return. In today's world especially, politics is also a globally connected phenomenon, so while what's going on in another country or region of the same country may not affect one directly, there are often ripple effects that reverberate throughout the world and that go on for a long time.

    My view is that politics is not just in the halls of politicians' work spaces, even though that is what most politicians would like to have us believe. That it only matters which party we are registered with and how we vote. Voting is actually the least one could do to remain politically active in a democracy. The actual engagement of and by people beyond the voting booth is what really tells politicians in power what it is that they are in office for, what people want and what is unacceptable to their constituents. Those who do engage get heard more by those political institutions.

    That is why, IMHO, politics is not just about the institutions like the PM's office, or political parties; those are part of politics of course, but politics in a broader sense is how our actions, words and choices are affected by the larger power structures in which we exist, and how we in turn act upon those structures with our actions, words and choices.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Political views
     Reply #83 - April 10, 2013, 06:17 PM

    Again, you seem to be thinking there is something grand and out of the ordinary about politics. Like the cliched single mom with 2 kids and debt is not being political in her everyday choices and in the fact that she is part of a larger economic political landscape that keeps her in debt, and a larger socio-political landscape that keeps her status as a single mom relatively stigmatized.

    This isn't gonna work, allat. We're discussing a person either being active or inactive in politics. We're talking about the ramifications of not being politically active.

    If you want to define political activity as every little thing we do that somehow, directly or indirectly, feeds into the economy or social landscape, then the discussion is over. Because in this sense, politically active has lost any kind of meaning as a descriptive and difference indicator. Abood's arguments can not be addressed on these terms. If literally everybody who isn't a self-sustaining hermit is politically active, the conversation is absurd to begin with.

    Are we seriously gonna suppose Abood's ire is aimed towards these hermits exclusively? Clearly not. Clearly he's referring to something all the other non-hermit people are either doing or not doing. And since all the other people are politically active by your definition, clearly when he says people who are not politically active are a problem he's not operating on such a broad abstract definition of politics. And you yourself imply extra, more narrow and focussed context beyond merely existing and shopping and chatting about gays when you say things like saying and doing something about "it".

    Do you really suppose I'm oblivious to the trickle-in effect of many things we do when I argue that some people are simply not politically active or motivated? Clearly not. Clearly I am aware of the effects we have upon the universe directly and indirectly, and clearly I'm making some kind of distinction between everyday activity and political activity. And I credit you with enough intelligence to understand that without me having to add a caveat.

    I'd define politically active as being engaged in the government infrastructure/public policy at a national or local level with a conscious desire to affect it. Or being aware of the people who are running things beyond being able to recall the names of a few heads of state, and at least partially aware of the policy those people stand for or generally aware of what the different political parties stand for to some degree. Or knowing what words like conservative, liberal, communism, fascism mean and could actually hold a conversation where such words are used appropriately. Or being an active proponent for some kind of cause that can be said to be a political cause. Or at the very least holding to certain distinguishable political views and voicing those views on occasion.

    This seems like a reasonable definition of politics to me. It seems to be the definition, or close to the definition, that most people would have in mind when they think of politics. And on these terms, the arguments we are having actually mean something and can go somewhere. On these terms, Abood's arguments can be addressed fairly. On these terms, there are plenty of people who are not politically active. Good people, smart people, hard working people who just so happen to not give a shit about politics and merely by virtue of the latter do not warrant being accused of being part of the problem.

    You do seem to be confusing conservatism (keeping the status flow going) with being a member of (a) Conservative party. I don't know if you are truly confused about the difference or if you're just doing it to have something to argue about, but I think you do understand the difference, as I explained in the rest of my post that you quote:

    I've already addressed this point here and here.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Political views
     Reply #84 - April 10, 2013, 06:24 PM

     popcorn
  • Political views
     Reply #85 - April 10, 2013, 06:44 PM

    Maybe I am too young to even speak on this matter, but I will just answer the main question posed by Cato. Since I believe that the definition of politics (The activities associated with the governance of a country or area) relates more to what Ishina was positing, I don't find it necessary to have political views. However, as Allat said, since our views, ideas, and opinions on society automatically and necessarily affect how our countries are governed, they are important. Thus, being politically active, even in the mildest sense, should be encouraged.
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