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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi -- sort of confused

 (Read 4910 times)
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  • Hi -- sort of confused
     OP - April 10, 2013, 08:51 PM

    Hello everyone,

    So i'd like to begin by introducing myself and then further moving on to my issue and why I am here. Coming from a Greek background, i have always been in a strong catholic environment. While living in Manchester, I use to meet all sorts of different muslims and I stumbled upon islam. After researching on the religion for two entire years, I decided that it was the right path for me. I specifically loved how it treats the poor and the rich equally and every individual is given the same punishment regardless of his/her rank in society. I decided that it was time for me to convert but I did not want to do this in public. I eventually started learning how to pray and the basic fundamentals of islam such as paying Zakat to feed the poor, and fasting in the holy month. However, I always did this when I was alone, due to fear of being caught by my family and I never went to the mosque as I felt people would consider me as a non-muslim due to how I look. Two months ago, I decided to move to Toronto since my cousins live here and since I plan to attend Queens university for life sciences and will move to Kingston once the year starts. I personally feel that people here are much more reasonable with their thoughts and the feeling of being "free" here is much greater. I like how everyone's opinion is respected and no-one is restricted to believing anything, everyone is free to believe what they like and express what they want. I met a person on the public transit system who I discussed my conversion with. He then directed me to this forum and I have been reading this forum for a couple of days now. I am feeling confused in life and my thoughts keep clashing against each other. I feel even more scared to discuss this with anyone because my cousins dont know that im muslim, I consider myself as a muslim and at the same time I keep hearing things from people that put me into reconsideration of my belief. If someone could tell me why they left islam and what made them do that, that would give me a much deeper insight into the issue. I want to learn more and more and base my belief on proper research.

    Thank you for reading!
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #1 - April 10, 2013, 09:01 PM

    Qwelcome parrot

    You might not want to have such personal details (locations) in public, up to you of course, but just to highlight.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #2 - April 10, 2013, 09:03 PM

    Welcome. I wonder if the person who directed you here is a member Cheesy

    So you like that people should be treated equally, and poor should be given charity and all that? It shows that you're a smart, kind person Afro Why do you need to add worship to that though?

    Do you like the idea that you cannot pray for your parents because they are not Muslim? You cannot pray for your own parents and according to Islam, they will be in a bad place...unless they utter the magical words.

    Do you think it's ironic that the worse thing in Islam is to associate a partner with god? The only non forgivable sin in Islam. Not killing, not rape, but to associate a partner with god.

    Do you accept the idea that you are walking amongst humans whose flesh will be burned off and then put back together just so it can be burned off again because they didn't claim that Muhammed is Allah's messenger?




    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #3 - April 10, 2013, 09:15 PM

    Welcome CodyGreek. Aren't most Greeks from an Orthodox background? Not catholic.

    I am afraid that I personally am not an ex-Muslim so I never left Islam, so I can't really help you there.

    However when I was a teenager I did think Islam was pretty cool. Without actually reading the Quran, just from reading about it in school history books. I was given the impression that Islam was a much more tolerant, science positive religion than Christianity and that Medieval Islamic societies were multi-cultural paradises where people of all races sat together in beautiful fountain courtyards in white robes discussing Aristotle. So whilst i did not believe in it, I at least respected it.

    Then when I did A-Level sociology, we studied religious attitudes to gender, and the verse of the Quran 4.34 about beating disobedient wives was brought up. So that was the first realization to me that Islam really was actually pretty horrible. Then years later I learnt how Muhammad had married a nine year old girl. Then gradually I started learning more and more about Islam, and the more I learnt, the more I was repulsed.

    I am sure you will get some responses from actual ex-Muslims that will be more helpful...
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #4 - April 10, 2013, 10:41 PM

    Welcome CodyGreek,
    Well, it's your life and your choices, but it's always a good idea to look at it from both sides. You can't just expect a short answer why I no longer believe in Islam, there are just too many reasons.

    I try not to be blinded by hate, as there are many good doctrines and practices in Islam. But all this is just irrelevant when one realizes that there is absolutely nothing divine about the Quran or about Muhammad.
    Let us just set aside the barbaric or dubious parts: Even then, this doesn't change the very simple fact that there is absolutely no proof whatsoever for Islam, or any other religion for that matter.

    A godless life seems grim, and it is indeed so, even more when you have to pretend to believe to avoid repercussions. Apostasy is a big taboo in the Islamic world.
    For me there is no possibility of ever believing Islam: I might pray 50 times a day, I may fast every single day, but it won't make me believe again..
    What is seen cannot be unseen.
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #5 - April 10, 2013, 11:57 PM

    One thing to notice is that the freedom of belief you talked about is NOT a freedom represented in Islam. As you know, if a person converts to Islam and changes his former beliefs, then it's okay (not surprisingly). But if a person converts out of Islam, and says this publicly, he is an apostate. Any apostate, according to traditional islam, a title that ALL ex-muslims hold, is supposed to be punished to death by law in an Islamic State. I know that you live in a Western country, but the fact that this law exists in Islam only proves my point.

  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #6 - April 11, 2013, 01:53 AM

    @Kutta, so apostates are to be killed in this life, and apostasy falls under the one non forgivable sin, therefore, an eternity in hell. Doesn't matter how good we can be if we reject god. Wow, no nope for us wacko

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #7 - April 11, 2013, 01:55 AM

    Yeah lol, no hope.
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #8 - April 11, 2013, 03:25 AM

    codygreek, study Islam. Read the Quran and the Hadiths on your own, independently. Then decide if Islam is true. I don't want to hurt your feelings - Islam is Evil.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #9 - April 11, 2013, 05:30 AM

    Hi Cody
    The one good thing that you have going is no one knows that you are Muslim. I'm a convert to Islam I also feel like I'm on the ping pong table as it were. One day I feel like Islam is the right way then I hear something on the news or read, see something and I feel like running away from it as fast as I can. I think there is a God so I start to think if I'm not Muslim then what is left to be. I don't know where I was going with all that. I can't tell you what to think or how to live the person above me or below me can't either only you can. I do think that you don't have enough info on Islam to make such a choice either way. I don't know If I can do this but I will give you some links to help with that. http://seekersguidance.org/courses/NEW100 http://seekersguidance.org/courses/NEW102 and this one http://www.newmuslims.com
    This should be enough to give you a start to make your own choice in the matter.  Mods if I can't have these links then pls feel free to delete my post no hard feelings
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #10 - April 11, 2013, 07:20 AM

    Simply read the Quran and Hadith and ask yourself if these things are right.  Imagine yourself here and now and imagine the things that are being said actually happening.  Like mohammed destroying other peoples gods, imagine walking into a Buddhist temple or a hindu temple and starting a fight.      Is it just? 

    Ask yourself why an all knowing god would send one man and order him to fight the people till they say laillahillah blah blah blah......wouldn't it be more efficient if he just proved himself without all the hiding and games?

    I dare you to read those verses in the quran about hell and not cringe when in the next sentence it tells you allah is merciful after describing in gruesome detail how this merciful god is gonna roast people for all eternity.   

    If that doesn't help go to a playground and look at the children and imagine a 50 year old man marrying a 9 year old girl, close your eyes and mentally visualize that nonsense!

    If you hate slavery ask yourself why this god didn't destroy this institution if mohammed is supposed to be the prophet for all people at all times, surely with this and many other questionable things allah woulda thought about what other more advanced generations would view his dealings with previous generations......unless its all bullshit

    If you still want to believe after what I just wrote then you need help

    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #11 - April 11, 2013, 03:36 PM

    Welcome. I wonder if the person who directed you here is a member Cheesy

    So you like that people should be treated equally, and poor should be given charity and all that? It shows that you're a smart, kind person Afro Why do you need to add worship to that though?

    Do you like the idea that you cannot pray for your parents because they are not Muslim? You cannot pray for your own parents and according to Islam, they will be in a bad place...unless they utter the magical words.

    Do you think it's ironic that the worse thing in Islam is to associate a partner with god? The only non forgivable sin in Islam. Not killing, not rape, but to associate a partner with god.

    Do you accept the idea that you are walking amongst humans whose flesh will be burned off and then put back together just so it can be burned off again because they didn't claim that Muhammed is Allah's messenger?






    I have always agreed with being kind to people and donating money to the poor. When I learned about islam, I realized how islam makes it mandatory for a believer to pay donation and after all sorts of other research, I felt this is true and if islam is true then I am supposed to be worshipping Allah because thats the first principle in islam. If I decide to just be kind to people and donate money, then who am I doing it for? I realize that its moral and everything, but I feel that there needs to be a set standard for every single individual to donate a certain amount of money and islam takes care of this.

    As for my parents, I can always pray that Allah guides them to islam and also, once I feel firm about my belief, I will go on to tell them about islam too

    In my opinion, it makes sense to have a really high set of punishment for setting up partners. If your setting partners, your basically violating the first and foremost rule of islam. If you cannot follow the first rule, then how are you even going to follow everything else? by associating partners, your violating the fact that u have to submit, and if ur not submitting then ur basically not following anything that God is telling you to do. Also, keep in mind, rape and killing also have a set punishment in Islam, they are not forgiven until you are punished for them in this world.

    As for your fourth point, as far as being burned for eternity is concerned, if that rule was not made then no-one would fear God and no-one would follow religion. Like imagine the punishment was that you will be burned for certain amount of years, then people would just decide to do whatever they want and accept the fact that they'll be punished for a certain amount of time and then they will be forgiven. That wouldn't bring too many to submission. The fear of burning in eternity causes MOST people, including me, to come towards islam and submit to God.

    codygreek, study Islam. Read the Quran and the Hadiths on your own, independently. Then decide if Islam is true. I don't want to hurt your feelings - Islam is Evil.


    Look, I am not here to accuse anyone or any religion, but I am here just for the reason to learn and see different opinions. When you say things like "Islam is Evil" and then I see the ruling in islam in regards to preventing almost every evil thing that comes to my mind(murder, rape, stealing etc.) , I feel that your statement is the complete opposite of what Islam really is. Once again,  you may have your own reasons, but I am speaking based on facts rather then my opinion.

    One thing to notice is that the freedom of belief you talked about is NOT a freedom represented in Islam. As you know, if a person converts to Islam and changes his former beliefs, then it's okay (not surprisingly). But if a person converts out of Islam, and says this publicly, he is an apostate. Any apostate, according to traditional islam, a title that ALL ex-muslims hold, is supposed to be punished to death by law in an Islamic State. I know that you live in a Western country, but the fact that this law exists in Islam only proves my point.




    But if that wasn't the ruling, then every individual would start doubting islam and eventually run away from it. The punishment makes sure that no-one falls into doubt and follows the commands of God that prevent evil and bad in society.

    Simply read the Quran and Hadith and ask yourself if these things are right.  Imagine yourself here and now and imagine the things that are being said actually happening.  Like mohammed destroying other peoples gods, imagine walking into a Buddhist temple or a hindu temple and starting a fight.      Is it just? 

    Ask yourself why an all knowing god would send one man and order him to fight the people till they say laillahillah blah blah blah......wouldn't it be more efficient if he just proved himself without all the hiding and games?

    I dare you to read those verses in the quran about hell and not cringe when in the next sentence it tells you allah is merciful after describing in gruesome detail how this merciful god is gonna roast people for all eternity.   

    If that doesn't help go to a playground and look at the children and imagine a 50 year old man marrying a 9 year old girl, close your eyes and mentally visualize that nonsense!

    If you hate slavery ask yourself why this god didn't destroy this institution if mohammed is supposed to be the prophet for all people at all times, surely with this and many other questionable things allah woulda thought about what other more advanced generations would view his dealings with previous generations......unless its all bullshit

    If you still want to believe after what I just wrote then you need help


    The facts you stated are mostly based on Hadith. I haven't studied Hadith in depth and let's not forget that not all hadith are accurate, there are many that could have been narrated wrong or might have other issues. I usually tend to base all my facts and knowledge through the Quraan rather then the hadith. Whenever I encounter an argument where someone talks to me about a hadith, I usually avoid arguing because I haven't done enough research on the specific hadith and there could be some inaccuracy depending on which book it came from and who narrated it.

    As for Allah's mercy, if you think about he is truly merciful. I was sinning for past 16-17 years and now I am told that if I turn to submission, he will forgive every single thing I did. As I turned to islam, I personally feel that I am becoming more and more better of a person. I don't seem to be rude to anyone anymore, I respect women more then ever, and I dont judge anyone based on their colour or racial origins. I see myself as a completely different character, even my friends keep wondering how my heart turned so soft.


    Once again,this is just my opinion. I know majority of the people on this forum will definitely disagree with what I say but I feel that everyone has the right to speak out their thought process so that a concrete and accurate conclusion can be drawn. I tend to listen to everyone's opinion with an open and free mind, without enclosing myself in a box of thought and I would really appreciate if everyone would do the same before bashing at me!


    Thanks for your input!
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #12 - April 11, 2013, 05:13 PM

    I'm not one to post lengthy expositions so I'll proceed to ask you rhetorical questions and/or proffer brief statements to ponder.

    "I have always agreed with being kind to people and donating money to the poor. When I learned about islam, I realized how islam makes it mandatory for a believer to pay donation and after all sorts of other research, I felt this is true and if islam is true then I am supposed to be worshipping Allah because thats the first principle in islam. If I decide to just be kind to people and donate money, then who am I doing it for? I realize that its moral and everything, but I feel that there needs to be a set standard for every single individual to donate a certain amount of money and islam takes care of this."

    For a start, this is a logical fallacy. You could obey islam's zakat dictate without submission as you believe that the amount stipulated is qualitative. What I find unnerving however is the fact that you must question your desire to help the poor notwithstanding it being an admirable trait. Do not you want to become a master?


    "As for my parents, I can always pray that Allah guides them to islam and also, once I feel firm about my belief, I will go on to tell them about islam too"


    Is not this patent ingratitude? Think about the pain your mother experienced during child labour, the sleepless nights for both, the blood, toil and guts sacrificed in order that your future was secured and the shelter, food and clothing put over your head. Do they deserve to burn for ever simply because they had no conclusive evidence to believe in a metaphysical creator? Think about this:  Allah determined the entirety of your life therefore he does not require love or appreciation from you; if you deny this you are committing manifest shirk. Your parents, however, most likely, would be wounded if they ascertained your views pertaining to them.

    "In my opinion, it makes sense to have a really high set of punishment for setting up partners. If your setting partners, your basically violating the first and foremost rule of islam. If you cannot follow the first rule, then how are you even going to follow everything else? by associating partners, your violating the fact that u have to submit, and if ur not submitting then ur basically not following anything that God is telling you to do. Also, keep in mind, rape and killing also have a set punishment in Islam, they are not forgiven until you are punished for them in this world.

    As for your fourth point, as far as being burned for eternity is concerned, if that rule was not made then no-one would fear God and no-one would follow religion. Like imagine the punishment was that you will be burned for certain amount of years, then people would just decide to do whatever they want and accept the fact that they'll be punished for a certain amount of time and then they will be forgiven. That wouldn't bring too many to submission. The fear of burning in eternity causes MOST people, including me, to come towards islam and submit to God."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
    I urge you to read that article. This isn't permitted in islam. You cannot merely fear allah. You must love him proper.

    "But if that wasn't the ruling, then every individual would start doubting islam and eventually run away from it. The punishment makes sure that no-one falls into doubt and follows the commands of God that prevent evil and bad in society."

    Firstly you haven't defined what good and bad actually are. a) if good and bad are independent of allah this is 1) shirk and 2) reductive as quranic determinism is thrown into severe disrepute. B) if good and bad are propensities that allah endows society (whatever that may be) with, then we must, by a strange case of logical inference, conclude that they do not exist, all things pertaining to that mightily convoluted discipline of predestination considered. Secondly, I was under the impression that islam is a religion of logic and rationality. If so, there should be no reason for its adherents to apostatise.
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #13 - April 11, 2013, 08:18 PM

    Quote
    But if that wasn't the ruling, then every individual would start doubting islam and eventually run away from it. The punishment makes sure that no-one falls into doubt and follows the commands of God that prevent evil and bad in society.


    That statement puts up my troll sensors so no further input needed from me, have a nice day
     and may you reach the highest place in Jannah Insha'alla Smiley
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #14 - April 11, 2013, 08:37 PM

    I like how everyone's opinion is respected and no-one is restricted to believing anything, everyone is free to believe what they like and express what they want.


    But if that wasn't the ruling, then every individual would start doubting islam and eventually run away from it. The punishment makes sure that no-one falls into doubt and follows the commands of God that prevent evil and bad in society.


    Afti einai ena antiphasi, borete na exigesete pos thelete mia elevtheri koinonia alla sigchronos ti thanatiki poini yia tin apostasia;
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #15 - April 11, 2013, 08:43 PM

    You don't need to convert to Islam to believe in treating people equally, giving to the poor, and just being a loving human being. No religion has a monopoly even though especially Islam likes to pretend that they do, and unless you are Muslim then you won't be inclined to do those things. That's just flat-out wrong.  I'm an atheist and I believe in all those things, I even dress modestly (long pants and shirts), no make-up and I had my Muslim friend say how I should be Muslim because I already 'think' like one. I'm like no thanks, I can define my own practices and my own lifestyle without putting myself in a category.

    You can be spiritual if you want, but don't get trapped in organized religion because with organized religion you're not pleasing God anymore, you're pleasing his/her followers. And Islam is not like Christianity.

    Christians come and go as they pleased. Islam is usually a one road religion.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #16 - April 11, 2013, 08:44 PM

    As for your fourth point, as far as being burned for eternity is concerned, if that rule was not made then no-one would fear God and no-one would follow religion.

    Indeed.

    Like imagine the punishment was that you will be burned for certain amount of years, then people would just decide to do whatever they want and accept the fact that they'll be punished for a certain amount of time and then they will be forgiven. That wouldn't bring too many to submission.

    That's exactly what a Muslim I know believes, but he thinks that it only applies by Muslims.

    The fear of burning in eternity causes MOST people, including me, to come towards islam and submit to God.

    And you think it's normal  Huh?

    Look, I am not here to accuse anyone or any religion, but I am here just for the reason to learn and see different opinions. When you say things like "Islam is Evil" and then I see the ruling in islam in regards to preventing almost every evil thing that comes to my mind(murder, rape, stealing etc.) , I feel that your statement is the complete opposite of what Islam really is. Once again,  you may have your own reasons, but I am speaking based on facts rather then my opinion.

    I wonder what's the best way of doing evil without people even noticing it whistling2

    But if that wasn't the ruling, then every individual would start doubting islam and eventually run away from it. The punishment makes sure that no-one falls into doubt and follows the commands of God that prevent evil and bad in society.

    Indeed. But then again, do you think it's normal ?
    If you ask me... truth doesn't need dead punishment in order to survive over lies.

    As for Allah's mercy, if you think about he is truly merciful. I was sinning for past 16-17 years and now I am told that if I turn to submission, he will forgive every single thing I did. As I turned to islam, I personally feel that I am becoming more and more better of a person. I don't seem to be rude to anyone anymore, I respect women more then ever, and I dont judge anyone based on their colour or racial origins. I see myself as a completely different character, even my friends keep wondering how my heart turned so soft.

    So Allah cares more about what you think than what you actually do ? You'll be rewarded/punished according to your beliefs rather than the good you do to people ? Is this compatible with an All-Mighty God who controls an indifferent nature ? The sun is shining for Jews, Christians, Muslims, Atheits, Agnostics... And so falls rain onto to head of anybody, independently of their (non-)religion. Is this compatible with a God who is so discrimatory regarding religion in the "hereafter"?


    Once again,this is just my opinion. I know majority of the people on this forum will definitely disagree with what I say but I feel that everyone has the right to speak out their thought process so that a concrete and accurate conclusion can be drawn. I tend to listen to everyone's opinion with an open and free mind, without enclosing myself in a box of thought and I would really appreciate if everyone would do the same before bashing at me!

    Sorry, but this is unislamic  Wink

    Now, I have a simple exercise for you, if you don't mind.
    First, ask yourself : if Allah spoke only through Muhammad's mouth, how can I be sure that Muhammad didn't atribute any word to Allah ?
    Then, read carefully surat 33 of the quran.
    Then, think about this question : even if it was proved that some words Muhammad said were from God, would that prove that 100% of what he says is from God is actually from God ?
    Finally, ask yourself again : if Allah spoke only through Muhammad's mouth, how can I be sure that Muhammad didn't atribute any word to Allah ?


    You can be spiritual if you want, but don't get trapped in organized religion because with organized religion you're not pleasing God anymore, you're pleasing his/her followers.

    Well said. As I sometimes say, religions are blasphemies.

    Codygreek : I forgot to mention about hell that being a Muslim isn't really a good protection, since it only protects you from hell
    1) if hell does exist
    2) if Islam is true
    So Reason and Logic should prevails over fear.

    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #17 - April 11, 2013, 09:12 PM

    Also, you must, without equivocation, be certain that the madhab you adhere to is the correct one. I know you're not exactly deferential towards the corpus of hadith literature, however consider the validity of hadith from this perspective: in order that the quran is contextually comprehensible, we must consult the hadith.
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #18 - April 11, 2013, 11:12 PM

    Quote
    But if that wasn't the ruling, then every individual would start doubting islam and eventually run away from it. The punishment makes sure that no-one falls into doubt and follows the commands of God that prevent evil and bad in society.

    That statement puts up my troll sensors so no further input needed from me, have a nice day
     and may you reach the highest place in Jannah Insha'alla Smiley


    ^
    Agreed, but I must admit this member(<cough> troll's) background story intrigues me.  wacko
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #19 - April 12, 2013, 02:40 AM

    Quote
    I have always agreed with being kind to people and donating money to the poor. When I learned about islam, I realized how islam makes it mandatory for a believer to pay donation and after all sorts of other research, I felt this is true and if islam is true then I am supposed to be worshipping Allah because thats the first principle in islam. If I decide to just be kind to people and donate money, then who am I doing it for? I realize that its moral and everything, but I feel that there needs to be a set standard for every single individual to donate a certain amount of money and islam takes care of this.

    Well I agree that without someone teaching you some structure, you can easily get lost. Thankfully, we have schools, programs... secular charities organise things like charity events for schools to take part in, and that teaches children of opportunities to give back. For the rest of us, religion filled in that gap and told us what to donate and to who. Now with Islam, the charity focuses on on Muslim. (I'm sure other religions focus on their people as well), but then doesn't that tell you that a secular charity that doesn't discriminate based on religion is far more superior to a religious charity? You just need to know where to look. There are people who volunteer weekly in soup kitchens, so what makes you more superior to them? Sure, sending an annual % of money overseas is great, but there are people around you that need it right now if you look. Muslim organisations are now copying this approach and opening their own food banks for local Muslims (again, the religious exclusivity applies).
    Regarding who you are doing it for...well if you need someone to watch over you and make sure you are giving chairty then that (IMO) does not display mature character. I mean would you commit a crime if a policeman couldn't see? Would you lie if no one knows? The authoritarian approach is doomed to fail because it produces zombies who cannot think for themselves, and wag their tails for rewards. No good-doing just for the sake of helping. Well that really sucks....

    Quote
    As for my parents, I can always pray that Allah guides them to islam and also, once I feel firm about my belief, I will go on to tell them about islam too

    Well that is a hopeful quote, and maybe, they will convert for you, and you'll all live happily ever after. If not, good luck with your concious knowing that you accept a system that will torture those who don't believe in the magical sky god.

    Quote
    In my opinion, it makes sense to have a really high set of punishment for setting up partners. If your setting partners, your basically violating the first and foremost rule of islam. If you cannot follow the first rule, then how are you even going to follow everything else? by associating partners, your violating the fact that u have to submit, and if ur not submitting then ur basically not following anything that God is telling you to do. Also, keep in mind, rape and killing also have a set punishment in Islam, they are not forgiven until you are punished for them in this world.

    How can you equate faith/non faith to actual crimes that can hurt others? Rape actually hurts people. Not believing in god doesn't! Who cares what god says. I mean I'm sorry that you are sheltered, you sound like you live in a box... Do you feel the need to do good, or be accepted? If you genuinely want to help others then do it. What does that have to do with other personal decisions you make that are for you only and don't affect anyone else.
    Btw it sounds like you're saying it's either Islam, or the highway, as if there is no good in the world besides Islam. It is sad that you have not looked around lately at all the non Muslims doing amazing things to better our world for everyone including yourself. For your safety, health, happiness, convenience...to shun all of this and think that the only way to salvation is through saying la ilaha ila allah is depressing.

    Quote
    As for your fourth point, as far as being burned for eternity is concerned, if that rule was not made then no-one would fear God and no-one would follow religion. Like imagine the punishment was that you will be burned for certain amount of years, then people would just decide to do whatever they want and accept the fact that they'll be punished for a certain amount of time and then they will be forgiven. That wouldn't bring too many to submission. The fear of burning in eternity causes MOST people, including me, to come towards islam and submit to God.

    Do you only do things when forced into submission? Do you know of any stories of dissent? Well ironically, Islam's first martyrs dissented against the status quo of the time. But is dissent only one way? That's a bit hypocritical don't you think. Or does the magical sky god overrule all fairness? 
    Maybe you should check out the holy book of Prophet Khalil Gibran about crime and puinshment.
    Quote
    What judgment pronounce you upon him who though honest in the flesh yet is a thief in spirit?
          What penalty lay you upon him who slays in the flesh yet is himself slain in the spirit?
          And how prosecute you him who in action is a deceiver and an oppressor,
          Yet who also is aggrieved and outraged?
          And how shall you punish those whose remorse is already greater than their misdeeds?
          Is not remorse the justice which is administered by that very law which you would fain serve?
          Yet you cannot lay remorse upon the innocent nor lift it from the heart of the guilty.

    As you can see, Khalil Gibran has thought it out better than Allah. According to Allah, the heart correlates with action, but we know that is not the case, every time a religious person commits a heinous crime. But you already know that as your ideas on forced charity show.
     You don't believe that  humans can be taught goodness through kindness and love, therefore need to be humiliated and forced and threatened to stay in line.

    Well I don't know if he's a troll, but he sounds pretty firm on the Islamic faith, and one would hope he realises that one day, he will dissent, and he will either be a hypocrite and make an excuse to exempt himself from the rules (as our Muslim friends love doing) or he will have empathy and stand up for his fellow man.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #20 - April 12, 2013, 04:07 AM

    That statement puts up my troll sensors so no further input needed from me, have a nice day
     and may you reach the highest place in Jannah Insha'alla Smiley

     thinking the same thing
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #21 - April 12, 2013, 05:53 AM

    trollololololo looooooo!   yes  No Thanks

    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #22 - April 12, 2013, 08:32 AM

    http://youtu.be/5kuhOeihL9o
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #23 - April 14, 2013, 12:31 AM

    Have you ever heard about Quakers?
    They were amongst the first to oppose slavery in Britain – which eventually led to banning slavery in the world [even most of the Islamic world]. Quakers started Amnesty International, Greenpeace and Oxfam.  All of this and there are less than 300,000 in the world.
    Quaker business-owners were among the first to introduce holidays, pensions and proper housing for their workers. 
    They have a strong belief in equality amongst members [historically use of “thee” and no hat tipping] – not wearing ostentatious dress [brand labels etc.], giving away 10% of income to charity [and that is an actual charity – not a  build-a-mosque “convert the unbelievers” charity], requiring all graves for rich/poor to be the same, etc.
    In what way does your belief system offer an improvement on this? Imagine what the world would be like if there were 300,000 Muslims and 1 Billion Quakers - would it be a better place?
    Let’s turn to Islam:
    I assume you are familiar with all of the unsavoury aspects about Muhammad:
    Having sex with a 9 year old girl when he was 54 [or was he 54 when he married her?], the various genocides and exterminations, the murder of those who voice dissent, the story of Saffiyah – where he tortured then murdered her husband, her family, her tribe and then took her to his tent for 3 days, the “convenient” suras which allow Muhammad alone to sleep with as many women as he wants to, that tell Muhammad’s guest to go home as he is too polite to tell them, the convenient timing of the various hadith, the pure hatred that any single page of the Qur’an – that is not comparable to any religious text I’ve ever come across, the rape, the slavery  etc. etc. etc.
    I particularly like the story in the Sirat where having been repulsed by a tribe they had attacked, some followers came across a old woman from that tribe on her own at an oasis. So they captured her brought her back to the Muslim camp, then tied her to two camels.
    Then they ripped her apart.
    And what about the Islamic world – where is the tolerance of non-Muslims? Of Apostates? Of homosexuals? Where are the human rights? Why the destruction of all cultures that are not Islamic?
    Do you have any appreciation of your Greek culture? Of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates? Of Aeschylus? Of the astonishing beauty of the Parthenon and the intelligence required to create it? You realise that that is all jahil? That it WILL be destroyed and obliterated and replaced with Islam according to your new philosophy?  What do you say to the Muslims who defend their use of slavery? There was an Imam on Egyptian TV a while back who wanted to reintroduce slavery [of non-Muslims of course] – what do you say to that? 

    You spoke of freedom - but as a Muslim you wish to be a slave - and to enslave. To take away the freedom of others.

    You spoke of rape - but Islam does not recognise the concept of rape [as opposed to zina] - you can rape as often as you want in Islam - your wife , your slave, kaffirahs when you are on Jihad - that is all halal.


  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #24 - April 14, 2013, 12:40 AM

    But if that wasn't the ruling, then every individual would start doubting islam and eventually run away from it. The punishment makes sure that no-one falls into doubt and follows the commands of God that prevent evil and bad in society.

    So you are saying the only reason you do not doubt islam is because of this ruling? How interesting that your religion is the true one - and people who stop following what you think  must be killed. Sometimes I think it's a pity the Greeks don't have a similar concept.
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #25 - April 14, 2013, 05:58 PM

    "But if that wasn't the ruling, then every individual would start doubting islam and eventually run away from it. The punishment makes sure that no-one falls into doubt and follows the commands of God that prevent evil and bad in society. "

    How about a more plausible explanation? Maybe if that wasn't the ruling, it would be more EASIER for people to figure out that this religion is bullshit since they have nothing to lose either way.
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #26 - April 16, 2013, 10:33 PM

    Welcome. I wonder if the person who directed you here is a member Cheesy

    So you like that people should be treated equally, and poor should be given charity and all that? It shows that you're a smart, kind person Afro Why do you need to add worship to that though?

    Do you like the idea that you cannot pray for your parents because they are not Muslim? You cannot pray for your own parents and according to Islam, they will be in a bad place...unless they utter the magical words.

    Do you think it's ironic that the worse thing in Islam is to associate a partner with god? The only non forgivable sin in Islam. Not killing, not rape, but to associate a partner with god.

    Do you accept the idea that you are walking amongst humans whose flesh will be burned off and then put back together just so it can be burned off again because they didn't claim that Muhammed is Allah's messenger?

    ^^^ You forgot to add for all ETERNITY, just because they made this 1 teeny tiny mistake in this FINITE life.



    God is brutal.
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #27 - April 17, 2013, 03:02 AM

    what was it, 74 years in hell for each missed prayer? Well I've missed about a year or maybe more.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #28 - April 17, 2013, 05:07 AM

    ^ I've missed a few years, well much more than that. I was never sincere in the prayers. In order to get what you wanted you had to really inflate Allah's ego. "you are great, you are awesome, you rock...please give me eternal heaven thank you" It was so fake  Grin

    "In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

    "The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
  • Hi -- sort of confused
     Reply #29 - April 17, 2013, 02:19 PM

    "then no-one would fear God and no-one would follow religion. Like imagine the punishment was that you will be burned for certain amount of years, then people would just decide to do whatever they want and accept the fact that they'll be punished for a certain amount of time and then they will be forgiven. That wouldn't bring too many to submission. The fear of burning in eternity causes MOST people, including me, to come towards islam and submit to God."

    I'm sorry, but I have to comment on this bullshit again. This logic is so flawed that...ugh. Why would you want to submit to a God simply based on fear? What if there is no conclusive evidence for this said God? Does His existence depend upon the supposed punishment? Ofcourse not. It seems as if you are indirectly admitting that the only reason you are sticking onto Islam is because of an eternal fear, rather than rational reasons.

    And also, your whole point assumes that God is a Being who deserves to be worshipped because He is Just. Is it really just to make someone ETERNALLY suffer based on a FINITE crime (which really isn't a crime in the first place)?

    The Qur'aan uses the "would be" argument in response to this. It basically says that disbelievers would disbelieve eternally anyways if they continued to live. However, this doesn't change the fact that God is punishing people based on something they WOULD DO rather than what they ACTUALLY DO.



    I could provide a response to every single statement that you just said. The only problem is, arguing with you would make look like a fool because you don't even have the manners to argue. Your constantly just calling everything "bullshit". When you learn some manners and are ready to look at things from a third person view, then ill be happy to debate with you. It's people like you that make me stick to Islam, because atleast islam prohibits bad manners.

    Oh and to those who think i'm a troll, please tell me what would I benefit by randomly posting on this forum if I were to be a troll?
    This is going to be my last post on this thread. This time I am confident about what I believe in so it's pointless to post here.

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