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 Topic: Why we Muslims just don't get it

 (Read 3437 times)
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  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     OP - June 07, 2013, 06:40 PM



    Fair play to Leeds University Islamic society for publishing this article by a Muslim student called Shafiq

    +++++++++++


    Why we Muslims just don't get it

    It's been just over a week since the Woolwich killing. If you hadn't heard about it until just now, you're probably not going to be interested in the rest of this post.

    The British Muslim reaction to the killing started off well, with unanimous condemnation of the attacks, disowning of the attackers, and us making it pretty clear that we were as horrified by it as the rest of the country.

    'Great!' I thought. 'We're finally starting to get it.'

    That feeling didn't last.

    It all started going downhill a couple of hours later, with the following quote, 'only savage fanatics use machetes; civilised people kill with drones and cruise missiles.' The little Internet research I did on this quote suggests it originated from Ben White who isn't Muslim, but it was widely posted by lots of Muslims on various social networks. Yes, the sentiment behind the statement may be true[1], but was it really necessary to post it everywhere? A lot of people reading it would have sighed and thought,

    ″Oh, there go the Muslims again. They've managed to spin even this story into a 'we are the victims' cry.″

    Then you had the argument about semantics - "Why call it terrorism, when it's really murder / a hate crime?" Again, is arguing semantics really necessary? Does it being labelled a hate crime make it any less horrific? All this from the outside looks like desperate gesturing to detract attention from what happened.

    Then finally, you got the complaints about Muslims being targeted; by the government who want to intervene more extensively in our activities (especially at universities), and by parts of the public who say they are sick of Muslims. Well, duh! These people claimed to carry out the attacks on behalf of the Muslim Ummah.

    Yes, every religion has its fair share of extremists but there's no denying that we're over-represented in the crazy department, and we have almost a total monopoly on the violent types.

    These attackers were converts to Islam, which means they were taught Islam by members of our own community. Terrorists don't wake up one day and decide they want to kill lots of non-Muslims - their journey to violence starts with the very way they (and we) are taught about Islam and the world around us.

    Our whole world is split into Muslim and non-Muslim. We're quick to raise money for Muslim-majority countries in sub-Saharan Africa, but raising money for non-Muslim majority states? Meh[2] - unless of course, something really bad happens like the Haiti earthquake.

    Secondly, we (Muslims in the west) have become adept at tying everything wrong with the Muslim world back to Western colonialism / imperialism:

    Lack of democracy in the Middle East? Western-backed dictators
    Any crazy story from Saudi Arabia? American support for the regime
    Al-Qaeda / The Taliban? Funded by the CIA in the 1980s
    The Iraq body count? The Allied invasion of 2003
    Palestine? Western support for Israel
    This world-view is the first step on a conveyor belt that quickly turns into hatred for Western governments, then anything Western, and before you know it, you've got a violent Jihadi on your hands. It's easy for people to think that way when we've been conditioned to see the world as them vs. us.

    The idea that 'the West' is to blame for all the ills of the Ummah is convenient because it absolves Muslims around the world of any responsibility for it. We were quite happy with the authoritarian regimes in Iraq, Syria and Libya because they opposed the West and we only turned on them when they started killing their own people (how is that any better than what Western governments did with their own favoured dictators?). We like to point back to the 1980s but conveniently turn a blind eye to the implicit support the Taliban gets from our heroes like Imran Khan. We like to blame the US for Iraq but the vast majority of deaths were as a result of Muslims killing other Muslims. And whilst terrorism in the UK is bad, terrorism against Israelis is secretly (and sometimes not so secretly) supported[3].

    'The West' is a convenient bogeyman but the reality is, WE are responsible for the bulk of the bad stuff that happens to 'the Ummah' we claim to care so much about. We indulge in this delusion even though it's resulting in so much harm on our community.

    So back to the original point - YES, we are partly responsible for the likes of Michael Adebowale and Michael Adebolajo.

    Groups like the EDL enjoy more support than they should because a lot of people know this. We were able to fool people for a long time with meaningless statements like 'Islam means peace' or with a quote from the Qur'an. But that doesn't work any more.

    People who dislike Islam and Muslims don't care what the Qur'an does or doesn't say - they see with their own eyes Muslims killing people around the world, including other Muslims. They see statements like 'behead those who insult Islam' and 'Islam will dominate the world' bandied about by their compatriots - pretty scary stuff I'm sure you'd agree. They see us going to mass rallies when Israel starts bombing Gaza but hear and see very little when it comes to violence from Muslims, beyond a few statements of condemnation. And even that doesn't last long - we soon bring out our excuses, arguments and distractions (as described above).

    People in the EDL aren't idiots. They see right through our double standards. They know that we're all too willing to condemn others but not as much when bad actions are by people from our own community, even though we are better able to do something about the latter. They may not be able to articulate their message very well, but that doesn't mean theirs isn't a legitimate one.

    It's our responsibility to ensure the country is comfortable with our presence here. If they're not, it's a failing of ours and not theirs. I've all too often heard complaints about the influx of Somalian asylum seekers in places like Leicester, or the increasing number of Eastern European migrants in Dewsbury. And these come from the very same people who expect white British people to be completely accepting of the large number of Muslims who now live in Britain. This is despite us having had a much bigger impact on the culture of the country than any other group of people - mainly due to the sheer number of us Muslims.

    We're quick to go on the defensive when people protest the building of a new Mosque[4] or call for the hijab to be banned, but are sheepishly silent when places of worship are attacked by Muslims.

    And it's not just the stereotypical white, working class person who has issues with Muslims. There are lots of people up and down the country who are tired of what they see as our constant whining. Some of us are actively calling for the government to intervene in Syria whilst others are actively discouraging it. Some of us were happy we intervened in Libya but then changed our mind and decided it was all an imperialist plot to gain control of the country's oil supplies. Shiites support intervention in Bahrain but not Syria whereas for Sunnis it's the opposite. We can't agree between ourselves whether our government should intervene in these countries, but we do agree that somehow all of it is 'the West's' fault!

    And why is it that we care about Muslim women getting raped in far flung places across the world, but care less so when it's white British girls getting raped in the UK by Muslims?

    When people make this point, we're quick to shout 'Racist!' or 'intolerance'. But I've heard far more shocking things come out from the mouths of fellow Muslims, about Jews and gay people, than I've read on the pages of right-wing groups.

    We're a bunch of hypocrites. We want all the benefits of living in a liberal democracy without any of the responsibilities or sacrifices. This couldn't have been illustrated any better than during the debate about gay marriage, where you had near universal condemnation of the bill from Muslims[5]. We strongly condemn any government attempt to interfere in our private affairs by banning us from wearing a hijab or a niqab, but we have no problem telling the government to interfere in the private affairs of others by preventing them from getting married. Seriously, how does two gay people getting married negatively affect the rest of us in any way?[6]

    Now, the points I've mentioned above don't apply to every single Muslim I've met, but almost all of us are guilty of failing to deal with these issues amongst our family, friends and community.

    Until we deal with our dual standards, the current animosity towards Muslims will be completely justified. So more of this please

    Disclaimer

    These are my personal views and not those of Leeds ISoc (different people in ISoc will have different views). I published it here for three reasons:

    I've been asked for a long time to write a blog post and I've finally got round to writing one.
    During my time at Leeds ISoc, I tried hard to make it a more open society where anyone felt comfortable joining. What better way to help that process along than airing some pretty frank views here?
    I intend my post to be read by other Muslims. I'm not one of those who is simply writing in national newspapers what others want to hear, with the hope of getting a pat on the back (and maybe some money too). Nor am I someone who says one thing in front of the camera or in one context, but completely different things in other contexts.
    You can comment below or if you want to contact me by email, any sent to shafiq@leedsisoc.com will be forwarded to my personal email account.


    [1] Or it may not be, I don't care.

    [2] Take Islamic Relief for example. Their website shows which countries they largely operate in. How many IR projects give aid to non-Muslims living in non-Muslim majority countries?

    [3] Before you start going, 'b-b-b-but, what about the Israeli occupation of Palestine? The open-air prison that's Gaza, yada, yada yada,' STOP! None of that justifies killing people.

    [4] What is the difference between protesting against a new mosque and this?

    [5] Barelvis and Deobandis agreeing on something. Who'd have thought it?

    [6] When I showed this post to friends, the first thing most of them commented on was this paragraph. They sympathised with my view but didn't see how it was relevant to the rest of it, and thought it would alienate many Muslims reading it. But that's the point I'm trying to make. We haven't understood that the principle behind both of them are the same - Governments shouldn't be in the business of intervening in the personal lives of its citizens when their actions don't affect anyone else. People who aren't Muslim often wonder how we can, with a straight face, ask for tolerance of our beliefs whilst calling for others to be denied that same tolerance?

    We haven't realised it yet, but the debate has moved on from whether Muslims support violent terrorism or not, to whether our beliefs are compatible with the country's liberal values. The debate is about whether we're truly embracing liberalism, or whether we're just taking advantage of the rights it affords us.

    You're allowed to believe that gay marriage is wrong. Actively campaigning against it suggests we have our priorities wrong. Threatening Muslim MPs who vote in favour of gay marriage IS wrong (and illegal).

    http://leedsisoc.com/blog/201305/why-we-muslims-just-dont-get

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #1 - June 07, 2013, 07:11 PM

    Wow! I really am amazed that got published. Excellent article. Really hits a very good point. It's a shame it'll get forgotten about.
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #2 - June 07, 2013, 07:13 PM

    Yeah, its refreshingly honest. But he'll get called an Uncle Tom and it'll all be ignored.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #3 - June 07, 2013, 11:54 PM

    The bloke's got guts and integrity. He does totally nail some very relevant points. Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #4 - June 08, 2013, 01:23 AM

    ^

    Yup he does makes some good points.

    Now let's see how long it take before he starts getting takfeered.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #5 - June 08, 2013, 03:19 AM

    That's brilliant.

    Literate too.
    (N.B. You-Know-Who.)
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #6 - June 08, 2013, 03:28 AM

    Great article!

    Quote
    We're a bunch of hypocrites. We want all the benefits of living in a liberal democracy without any of the responsibilities or sacrifices.


    Quote
    Until we deal with our dual standards, the current animosity towards Muslims will be completely justified.


    Very salient points. From what I've gathered, the ISOCs at most British unis have been taken over by radical takfeeris and salafists. My youngest sis-in-law used to be the head of the sisters section of the ISOC at the University of Manchester and she was the strictest Muslim out of all of my former in-laws. She had no idea of spirituality, it was all about fiqh and halal/haram with her.  lipsrsealed

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #7 - June 08, 2013, 04:13 AM

    Bravo friend for having the guts to call the munafiqqs what they really are. Its a really bad look when we cry about being victims all the time (some of which is completely justified) and stay completely quiet or respond to barbaric acts of savagery by saying " we Condemn this attack, but what about.."  Muslims have to understand that injustice is injustice and that this is not a contest of who is the biggest victim. Also being a victims does not give you the right to oppress or murder others. Islam does NOT mean peace it means SUBMISSION, which is what god demands from you or else! We all know what happens to the unbelievers and we are taught to have no sympathy for them. Once you delve into the depth of this religion, as with all the other so called religions, you find a common thread. This is not love for all mankind and kindness or charity, its the basic belief that whoever does not adhere to a strict code prescribed by the religion will suffer a torturous fate and that you should not pity them as they have brought it upon themselves by their choosing to question invalidated claims. Let's all be honest, you cannot be a "Muslim" as prescribed by our awesome religious scholars, and be a liberal free thinker. The two ideologies are inherently contradictory. To be a Muslim you have to believe that anyone who leaves your faith must be murdered. So to anyone who does not 100 percent believe in the punishment for the mortad and agree with it whole heartedly, unfortunately you are not a Muslim. The list of absolute contradictions of human rights as we know them now and the religion of Islam is unnerving and would take a long time to list. So next to,e you find yourself thinking " am I a Muslim or not?" Just ask yourself that question....


  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #8 - June 08, 2013, 04:20 AM

    Good read.
    Quote
    People who aren't Muslim often wonder how we can, with a straight face, ask for tolerance of our beliefs whilst calling for others to be denied that same tolerance?

    This!
    Quote
    We're a bunch of hypocrites. We want all the benefits of living in a liberal democracy without any of the responsibilities or sacrifices. This couldn't have been illustrated any better than during the debate about gay marriage,

    This!!!
    Quote
    Shiites support intervention in Bahrain but not Syria whereas for Sunnis it's the opposite.

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Nothing has proved how stupid people are until this conflict popped up. Oh you want Western intervention in Syria? Oh but Iraqi intervention was imperialism? Oh yeah Saddam was good, Bashar is bad, doesn't matter that both are Bathi dictators. Saddam is the chosen people, Sunnis, Bashar is an Alawai heretic. Ugh

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #9 - June 08, 2013, 04:38 AM

    Lol so true!!! The same people who were soooo against anyone messing with sad dams death squads are now all up in arms about why western countries won't go into Syria and overthrow Assad so the genocide of Alawites and by extensions Shias can begin. I don't understand how everything in this religion somehow turns into a holy war. The uprising against Assad and his authoritarian dictatorship was a political uprising, with no hint of sectarianism when it first broke out, now its all about Shia versus Sunni. Assad and the bath party is SECULAR you idiots. They care nothing about your medieval beliefs!! They will kill you if you oppose them, you can be Sunni shia Christian Jewish druze or alawite ( let's not forget that mainstream Shias don't accept the alawite sect, I mean prayers and the hajj are not mandatory for them). It absolutely disgusted me when a leading Egyptian cleric with, get this, sixty million subscribers on aljazeera came out the other day and basically said every Sunni of fighting age has to go to Syria and support the rebellion, not because Ass ads a bloodthirsty dictator who is opressing everyone, but because there was a plot from Shias and Iranians ( how convenient to blame the only non Arab state in the middle east) to exterminate Sunnis!!!!! I still cannot believe his hateful speech went on without getting any real media attention or condemnation from other more reasonable Muslim clerics. Shame when we can fire up our own people to massacre each other in the name of Allah....shame on bashar all Assad for killing tens of thousands of innocent people.....Shame on jebhat all Nusra, and their commander who ate a human liver on video and proudly announces that his goal is to rid the world of Shias, shame on Hezbollah for joining the war and helping kill innocent civilians....and most of all shame on all of us reasonable minded moderates who do not make our voices of reason heard.....remember this, this war will unravel the entire makeshift middle east and bring about an era of unspeakable darkness on the region unless we can resolve it through dialogue....who am I kidding, have you ever tried negotiating with a determined All Qaeda indoctrinated jihadist???
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #10 - June 08, 2013, 08:49 AM

    Somebody on the forum should get in contact with the article writer in the OP, get some dialogue going!
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #11 - June 08, 2013, 11:22 AM

    He does remind me alot of myself during the years I questioned, Seeing the hypocrisy everywhere is really hard to get over. I wonder how long it takes before he has to retract everything he says.

    Kudo's to him though, I hope he extends his line of reasoning and evaluates Islam as a whole through this lense.
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #12 - August 06, 2013, 03:20 PM

    Warms the bloody heart this does.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #13 - August 06, 2013, 04:27 PM

    Quod, thanks for reviving all those old threads - it brought my attention to this one.

    Just posted the original article in a Facebook group named "Dansk muslim debatten" (The Danish Muslim Debate). I wonder how it will be met (thread starter asked about what to say if invited to speak on Danish national TV to counter the increasing Islamophobia* against Muslims in Denmark, so I provided the article as an inspiration). The group is moderated by a couple of (Shia) Muslim guys but are open to everyone albeit sometimes the moderating is heavy. But they do have their rules put up front and people instigating hatred get slapped.

    "Secular" Muslims don't say much in that Facebook group, by the way. My bid is that they don't want to use time on neither mashallashs nor blindly defending the Ummah-think or why they call themselves "Muslim"

    * Yes, I know. Not my pick of word.

    And the parrot knows best.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #14 - August 06, 2013, 05:00 PM

    No worries, if it's worth getting out there it should be out there.

    Also, poster of the month here. Kiss my ring...

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #15 - August 06, 2013, 05:04 PM



    Congratulations - definitely well-earned dance Afro

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #16 - August 06, 2013, 05:14 PM

    Good boy.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #17 - August 06, 2013, 05:33 PM

     Why we Muslims just don't get it_Shafiq

    Quote
    ..................... Our whole world is split into Muslim and non-Muslim. We're quick to raise money for Muslim-majority countries in sub-Saharan Africa, but raising money for non-Muslim majority states? Meh[2] - unless of course, something really bad happens like the Haiti earthquake....................


    interesting point.. Haiti earthquake aid.. who given what?

    Haiti earthquake aid pledged by country
    Haiti Earthquake: Who’s given what?


    And..and after all that  donations WHY THIS??
     
    Yes.. Information is beautiful.,  Ideas, issues, knowledge, data .. Grasp it.. filter it.. Go forward with it..
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why we Muslims just don't get it
     Reply #18 - September 18, 2013, 08:17 AM

    Just posted the original article in a Facebook group named "Dansk muslim debatten" (The Danish Muslim Debate). I wonder how it will be met


    So how was it met?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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