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 Topic: What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?

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  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     OP - June 11, 2013, 06:39 PM
    I understand that the oldest Quranic manuscript is the Sana'a Manuscript in Yemen which dates to the reign of the Umayyad Caliph Al-Walid (705 AD). But this manuscript has been hidden from view by the Yemeni government and I believe it is only fragmentary, not a complete Quran.

    So what is the oldest complete copy of the Quran that we have today and that is available for the public to view?
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #1 - June 12, 2013, 05:56 PM
    I read a while back online somewhere that the oldest complete copy of the quran was sold at a charity auction for 2 mill. It was from the 12th century.
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #2 - June 12, 2013, 05:59 PM
    from what i remember, about 100 year after muhammed. Not 100% complete, but close enough
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #3 - June 17, 2013, 03:16 PM
    It is pretty interesting that noone is able to answer this question. I posed the same question on an Islamic forum and got 0 responses.

    So many Muslims claim that the Quran is the unaltered and perfectly preserved words of Muhammad, yet they themselves do not even know how far back we can trace the current Textus Receptus.
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #4 - June 17, 2013, 05:10 PM
    As far as I know the oldest complete copy of the Quran dates from the beginning of the 13th century. It's in unpointed and unvowelled Kufic, IIRC.

    There are fragmentary copies that are older - although how much older I don't know.

    The current textus receptus dates from 1924.
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #5 - June 17, 2013, 07:38 PM
    Quote from: josephus on June 17, 2013, 05:10 PM
    As far as I know the oldest complete copy of the Quran dates from the beginning of the 13th century. It's in unpointed and unvowelled Kufic, IIRC.


    Really? I though that the unvoweled Kufic script was already outdated by the Ninth Century, I am not an expert though, could be wrong. Definitely they had started putting vowel markings on the letters by the Ninth Century, but maybe the old Kufic script was still in use simultaneously...

    The Sana'a Manuscript from 705 AD is definitely in Kufic without vowel markings. But that is only fragmentary and has been hidden from public view by the Yemeni government.
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #6 - June 17, 2013, 08:43 PM
    Ok I have tried to work this out from some online searches, this website seems to be the best source:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

    They are rather vague in what they say about dates, but this is probably because we cannot say with much certainty exactly how old these extant copies are. But the oldest ones are listed to date from "Between the end of the First to the beginning of the Second Century AH". Which means approximately 710-750 AD.

    Two of the most famous old ones are in Topkapi, Istanbul and Samarkand. Whilst none of these manuscripts are totally complete, islamic-awareness.org gives the impression that there are quite a few manuscripts from this period, so there does seem to be a body of evidence to suggest that we can trace 99% of the Textus Receptus to the Late Umayyad Era (710-750 AD). But for anything earlier than that we have nothing.

    It is interesting that the earliest Qurans seem to date from just a little later than the earliest coins that mention Muhammad or anything to do with Islam...
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #7 - June 17, 2013, 08:47 PM
    Quote from: Tonyt on June 17, 2013, 08:43 PM
    It is interesting that the earliest Qurans seem to date from just a little later than the earliest coins that mention Muhammad or anything to do with Islam...


    You are right. That is interesting.
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #8 - June 17, 2013, 09:01 PM
    Yes, this is indicative of either the period where Arab civilization transformed from an oral to a literate society or the period where Arab rulers made a conscientious effort to formulate and propagate a foundation story to support their rule, or a combination of both.

    But it is rather strange that there is absolutely nothing that survives from the Rashidun Era, no coins or qurans or inscriptions.
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #9 - September 15, 2013, 01:44 AM
    Quote from: Tonyt on June 17, 2013, 08:43 PM
    Two of the most famous old ones are in Topkapi, Istanbul and Samarkand.


    Just came back from a trip to Turkey and I had a chance to go to Topkapi Palace and view this Quran and take a photo. Its in the Kufic script so it probably is pretty old. However I am pretty skeptical of how old it really is. In the museum they claim that it is Rashidun Era, but reputable websites online say that it is Umayyad Era.

    Plus in the "museum" it sits next to the staff of Moses, the sword of the Prophet David and the sword of Khaled Ibn Al-Walid. If this Quran is really the oldest in the world then why would it be housed with such obvious fake relics? How can we take them seriously when they put it next to the "staff of Moses"?? There is no special attention given to it either, people barely even notice it as they pass by all the other relics.


  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #10 - September 15, 2013, 01:50 AM
     I saw that too in Istanbul and disregarded it as a much later copy just based on intuition. I loved the city so much though, didn't you?
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #11 - September 15, 2013, 01:59 AM
    The city is really cool, I was looking forward to seeing Hagia Sofia and that was cool. There is a spot inside where they used to crown the Byzantine Emperors, and right behind that is a Ottoman Era Dikka. Pretty crazy to think that for hundreds of years Muslims were kneeling to pray on the exact same spot where centuries earlier famous Byzantine Emperors like Alexios Komenos had been crowned.

    But Topkapi Palace was way cooler by a long shot. That was a real nice surprise because I did not know what was in there. The Harem was amazing with all the Iknik tile work. Really interesting period that, you can see the Far East influence in the tiles.  We only had two days in Istanbul and then on the second day I got really sick from food poisoning.

    But we had spent about 5 days before that down in Mugla Province which is beautiful too and the Turks are extremely friendly, we had a great time all in all. Went paragliding too which was awesome!
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #12 - September 15, 2013, 02:10 AM
    Wow. Honestly, my trip to Turkey played an enormous role in me leaving Islam and for a whole host of reasons. I wrote about it personally before, but not publicly on the forum. Perhaps I should. I spent almost a month there and the impact was immense.


    And it took me a while to even make out what verses those were in the pic. That's from surah aal imran verse 190.
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #13 - September 15, 2013, 02:16 AM
    Yes. Yes you should. Afro
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #14 - September 15, 2013, 12:45 PM
    Definately you should HM, Id like to read about that. I got the feeling that Islam, or at least Conservative Islam was on the wane in Turkey. The Hijabis I saw were mainly from older generations. I saw a lot of families with 3 generations, kids, parents, and grandmas, and the ones wearing the Hijabs were mainly the grandmas. Turks also seem to drink quite a lot of beer.

    However I was only in the touristy areas, I have heard that the eastern part of the country is far less secular and I was in the Far West.

    In the places I visited Ataturk seemed like a bigger hero than Mo, his face was everywhere, but like I said that may be a distortion based on the region I was in and the touristy places I was visiting.
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #15 - September 15, 2013, 05:39 PM
    I would love to see the Hagia Sophia.
  • What Is The Oldest Complete Quran?
     Reply #16 - September 15, 2013, 05:42 PM
    It's a remarkably beautiful and enchanting building. I'd certainly recommend trying to see it in your lifetime.
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