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 Topic: Winning an argument (according to the Quran)

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  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #30 - June 17, 2013, 04:30 PM

    It is a question of 'orthodox' interpretation.

    It has long been established in various schools of Christianity that many parts of the bible are not to be taken literally.
    I remember at University (Engineering) and one of my favorite classes was a philosophy class we took... and the teacher happened to be a christian who saw the bible and 10 commandments... is the source of morality.  Probably something to do with the class being taught at the attached Christian college Tongue

    What was interesting is how the concepts were taken, studied against philosophy, and constantly forged to create a better morality.

    Now, this doesn't excuse what may or may not have been true of Christ or if he even existed at all.
    But, I would argue, it is not devoid of any substance or thought.

    This is as opposed to the Islamic tradition that most of us grew up with... where there really wasn't any thought or philosophy given. It was just... this is what mohamed did-this is what the koran says-that is right... now do it.

    Can this be done for Islam? I don't know... I personally doubt it as Islam is far too well documented in that sense and it is far too focused on submitting to the very detailed rules.  Philosophy is even dismissed and hated in Islam.

    While I don't personally believe in Christianity, I have a lot more respect for the idea of Christ and the general western philosophical framework that can be discussed freely and openly in the Christian area.  Now of course there are Christians that are not like that... let's not sugar coat it... but at least you can have that discussion.





  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #31 - June 17, 2013, 04:36 PM

    End time prophecies are the one part of the Bible you are never to take on at face value. They are meant ot be metaphorical clues which will indicate what will happen, but without being clear. You are the first person I have ever met that actually made the uncharacterisable move of literally interpreting the End times prophecies...


    I’m not interpreting them at all. I don’t believe in them. I couldn’t care less if they are literal or figurative. The point (that seems to have escaped you) is that the same nonsense exists in whatever holy scripture you choose to have faith in. Muslims use the same “it’s not literal” arguments to get past the nonsense in their own scriptures.


    Quote
    Now, the fact that you dont believe in any religion doesn't mean none of them are true and that we all believe in fairy tales. Every religion has the possibility of being right...


    That’s not true.

    Quote
    I chose Christian Orthodoxy. And i couldn't care less if you, or anybody else, like my decision or not.


    Again, I seriously don’t care what brand of bologna you prefer. If Orthodox Zombi-ism floats your boat, then have at it. I promise you that I will not get in your way. I will, however, call you out when you try to act like your beliefs are any more reasonable than a Muslim’s or a Jew’s.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #32 - June 17, 2013, 05:29 PM

    Quote
    The point (that seems to have escaped you) is that the same nonsense exists in whatever holy scripture you choose to have faith in. Muslims use the same “it’s not literal” arguments to get past the nonsense in their own scriptures.

    While that's technically true, there's a huge difference in how seriously people take their religions, or how the religions take themselves. The Quran promotes itself as the perfect exact word of God, while the Bible is said to have been "inspired" by God or something (I could be wrong, but that's the impression I got). There are many Christians that do believe in evolution for instance, because they're generally not as rigid about their beliefs as Muslims are. A Christian criticizing the Quran isn't necessarily a hypocrite if he's flexible about his own religious beliefs, as opposed to one who claims that the Bible and Christianity are flawless.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #33 - June 17, 2013, 05:36 PM

    The NT is mostly based on faith, and not slandering those that don't eblieve constantly. While it is inspirational, you will not find it saying "the prophets were Christians" or "My God raises the sun from the East, yours is false"


    The NT is a morally repulsive text in which the protagonist (Jesus) was either ridiculously insane or a big time narcissistic liar.

    Either case, his self-righteousness, his apocalyptic paranoia and his moral emptiness is not an example to follow, but rather one to laugh at and mock.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #34 - June 17, 2013, 05:46 PM

    All the supernatural zombie bullshit aside, the character of Jesus was pretty far ahead of that of his Jewish counterparts when it comes to ethics. A lot of the time, I find myself quite liking the guy and wishing that more Christians actually acted more like he is portrayed. He had some serious narcissistic issues and delusions of grandeur (probably daddy issues) but I digress.

    That said, there are still some pretty cringe worthy statements attributed to the guy that, when taken at face value, are rather abhorrent.

    Luke 19:27 “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.”

    Matthew 15:4-7 “For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.”

    Matthew 10:34  “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

    Now, a Christian who believes that these nasty verses should not be taken literally is no more justified than a Muslim who believes that the nasty parts of the Qur’an should not be taken literally.

    Christians also love to throw around the whole argument that “the Old Testament is the nasty part; we believe in the New Testament."

     It really is quite a curious thing to say seeing as how a) It is all supposedly the same god and b) Jesus himself was very much a Jew. In fact, Jesus is quoted to have said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” Matthew 5:17

    I really wonder what he would have made of Paul.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #35 - June 17, 2013, 05:49 PM

    While that's technically true, there's a huge difference in how seriously people take their religions, or how the religions take themselves. The Quran promotes itself as the perfect exact word of God, while the Bible is said to have been "inspired" by God or something (I could be wrong, but that's the impression I got). There are many Christians that do believe in evolution for instance, because they're generally not as rigid about their beliefs as Muslims are. A Christian criticizing the Quran isn't necessarily a hypocrite if he's flexible about his own religious beliefs, as opposed to one who claims that the Bible and Christianity are flawless.


    I have absolutely no problem with most Christians. People like the headteacher of my children's Church of England School typify the type of Christian I grew up amongst and have nothing but massive respect for. The sort that see love, charity, respect, toleration as the foundation of their faith. Who organise charity bazars for flood victims in Bangladesh. Who make every effort to be inclusive and considerate to others.

    But Christians who come on to an Ex-Muslim forum to laugh at and ridicule Islam and show support for Fascists who openly call for immigrants to be killed - they don't have my respect.

    Call me old fashioned if you will.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #36 - June 17, 2013, 05:55 PM

    A lot of the time, I find myself quite liking the guy.


    Seriously? Like when?

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #37 - June 17, 2013, 05:59 PM

    the character of Jesus was pretty far ahead of that of his Jewish counterparts when it comes to ethics


    I agree, though sadly he confirmed the concept of Hell - which for me is the most evil concept invented by man. But on the whole the NT was a vast improvement over the OT. It's just a shame about all that bullshit about father son holy ghost, atonement, original sin etc...



    btw when you say Jesus was ahead of his time, I think it is more accurate to say the writers of the NT were ahead of the writers of the OT. How far the NT describes actual events and an actual historical figure is dubious to say the least.

  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #38 - June 17, 2013, 06:05 PM

    Now, a Christian who believes that these nasty verses should not be taken literally is no more justified than a Muslim who believes that the nasty parts of the Qur’an should not be taken literally.

    I think it depends on their flexibility towards their beliefs. I know a Christian person who said that religion is man-made. She just thinks of Christianity as a way of connecting to God. I would say that her not taking the Bible literally is more justified than someone who firmly believes that the Quran is the word of God, yet not taking it literally.

    I have no idea how flexible our friend Gilmari is, so I'm not arguing against him unless I see a clear point of disagreement.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #39 - June 17, 2013, 06:09 PM

    Relax dude. No need to get mad about it. It was an admission of admiration, not a declaration of faith. It’s the same way I find myself liking William Wallace, Michael Corleone, or Genghis Khan.

    But since you asked, he does strike me as pretty gangsta here:  

    12Jesus entered the Temple and began to drive out all the people buying and selling animals for sacrifice. He knocked over the tables of the money changers and the chairs of those selling doves. 13He said to them, “The Scriptures declare, ‘My Temple will be called a house of prayer,’ but you have turned it into a den of thieves!”

    And here:

    [14] Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
    15“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
    16“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
    23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
    25“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
    27“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #40 - June 17, 2013, 06:12 PM

    Quote
    btw when you say Jesus was ahead of his time, I think it is more accurate to say the writers of the NT were ahead of the writers of the OT. How far the NT describes actual events and an actual historical figure is dubious to say the least


    Absolutely. That is exactly why I was careful to say "the character of Jesus." I meant character as in a fictional portrayal, not as in "the mannerisms or the personality." I’m not convinced the guy even existed.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #41 - June 17, 2013, 06:16 PM

    I think it depends on their flexibility towards their beliefs. I know a Christian person who said that religion is man-made. She just thinks of Christianity as a way of connecting to God. I would say that her not taking the Bible literally is more justified than someone who firmly believes that the Quran is the word of God, yet not taking it literally.

    I have no idea how flexible our friend Gilmari is, so I'm not arguing against him unless I see a clear point of disagreement.



    Meh. To each his own. I don’t think we should give Christians the monopoly over reinterpreting bullshit. Usama Hassan believes that evolution and the Qur’an are compatible. It seems ridiculous to me, but whatever works for him.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #42 - June 17, 2013, 06:22 PM

    HM: I know internet isn't good at catching moods, but I can't see how I appear mad by asking a question.

    As for those quotes, they seem to me about as admirable as any Hadith I've read. In fact, they remind me of the Hadith. And you don't even have to read closely to see snippets of madness.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #43 - June 17, 2013, 06:30 PM

    Just some words on how moral Jesus was (meant for the "Christian Orthodox" Gilmari). I notice there is a certain temptation in moral relativism whenever Jesus is being discussed. Is it easy to forget that with Jesus Christ came the first totalitarian principles of religion. Before Jesus, most evidently in the OT, god was a primitive and reactionary being, instantly killing whole communities by means of floods, wars etc if transgressions occurred. With Jesus came the intimidation and psychological torture of heaven and hell. Now God is watching you. Your every move and your every thought. There is no conscious or unconscious moment in your life where you're not watched. And mind you, step over the line, think the wrong thought and you might just as well prepare yourself for an eternity of torture. This is what Orwell meant when he said that all totalitarianism is essentially theocratic. The idea of an impermeable, infallible being watching you and severely punishing you for stepping out of line is actually something we should associate more closely with Christianity and Islam, Jesus and Muhammed, than Fascism, Ba'atism or Stalinism.

    Not to mention that Jesus' moral statements, like the golden rule, where more or less all plagiarisms of earlier, more reputable cultures. That he viciously exploited the apocalyptic paranoia of Bronze age Palestine, telling his followers to take no thought for the morrow, because they all believed the total destruction was upon them during their lifetime. That he was a self-righteous narcissistic prick. AND, as with everyone who insist they are vicars of God (or even God himself) , there is only two ways you can think of him. He was either fantastically crazy or fantastically evil.

    In other words, he either believed he really was son of God and a magical being, in which case he was insane or he deliberately preached falsehood and misguided many human beings, in which case he was evil. But the two are certainly not mutually exclusive either.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #44 - June 17, 2013, 06:31 PM


    Meh. To each his own. I don’t think we should give Christians the monopoly over reinterpreting bullshit. Usama Hassan believes that evolution and the Qur’an are compatible. It seems ridiculous to me, but whatever works for him.

    I didn't mean Christians in particular. I'm just saying that from an Islamic perspective, flexibility makes a lot less sense. Knowing that a person is a Christian for instance gives you significantly less insight into what the person believes than knowing that a person is a Muslim. You can always assume that a Muslim believes that the Quran is the exact perfect word of God, but you can't always assume that a Christian or a Jew has the same high opinion of their own holy books.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #45 - June 17, 2013, 06:32 PM

    HM: I know internet isn't good at catching moods, but I can't see how I appear mad by asking a question.

    As for those quotes, they seem to me about as admirable as any Hadith I've read. In fact, they remind me of the Hadith. And you don't even have to read closely to see snippets of madness.


    I figured you weren’t foaming at the mouth.  Cheesy

    I’m certainly no Christian. I just wanted to get across the idea that I could be intrigued by a character without agreeing with what they stood for overall. I personally tend to be fond of the rebellious, anti-establishment types at times, even when their causes are a bit off.

     I think the character of Jesus would be just as pissed off at self-righteous Christian evangelists as he was at the Pharisees.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #46 - June 17, 2013, 06:50 PM

    @ Minimow. Great assessment. The introduction of the ideas of heaven and hell has set humanity backward indescribably.

    It makes a little more sense when you consider the historical context in which these ideas emerged. As a Jew living in Palestine, reading the OT, one would have to wonder why God was not sending locusts, plagues, and floods against the Romans and the Persians. The whole natural pattern of Yahweh destroying towns in a fit of rage seemed to be completely out of whack. What is more, Yahweh was clearly not helping his chosen people with gifts of land and victories. The apocalyptic, doomsday culture of the time is a reflection of this. Things were so messed up that Yahweh must have had something else in mind—something BIG, like End of the Fucking World BIG.

    I’m sure there were plenty of delusional doomsday prophets running the streets back then. With centuries of the “unrighteous” prospering while “God’s people” suffered, there was not much else a prophet could realistically threaten enemies with apart from punishment after death. When you add the Greek traditions of Hades and Tartarus into the overall prevailing culture, as well as the imagery of Gehenna, the evil concept of hell is born. Islam, of course, took things to a whole new level.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #47 - June 17, 2013, 06:52 PM

    I didn't mean Christians in particular. I'm just saying that from an Islamic perspective, flexibility makes a lot less sense. Knowing that a person is a Christian for instance gives you significantly less insight into what the person believes than knowing that a person is a Muslim. You can always assume that a Muslim believes that the Quran is the exact perfect word of God, but you can't always assume that a Christian or a Jew has the same high opinion of their own holy books.



    I understand what you are saying. Believe me I do. I was a salafi of the Saudi sort for ages. I do think that things are starting to change on the fringes of Islam, Just as they did with Christianity.So I'm not sure if your assessment will continue to hold true for many western, progressive Muslims.
  • Re: Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #48 - June 27, 2013, 08:19 PM

    Please tell me you're not interpreting the descriptions as literal full on descriptions...


    Please tell me you're not interpreting the bible's claim that a god exists as literal full-on pure unadulterated truth?

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #49 - July 17, 2013, 03:26 PM

    Hassan and happymurtad, as much as I respect you both, how does calling someone stupid or delusional convince the person to rationally think for themselves? Both of you were Muslims once. I'm sure you remember how angry you used to feel when non believers  poked fun at your religion and didn't give you a chance to express your ideas because of the presupposition that you are some sort of stupid, lowly form of a human being. Make this a struggle for truth, not rhetoric.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #50 - July 17, 2013, 03:29 PM

    I change my mind. After looking through the posts again, that is directed only towards Hassan, not HM.
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #51 - July 18, 2013, 03:08 AM

    I was going to quote a few things he said, but you know what? It's all awesome. happymurtad, I never thought I'd ever feel this way about another man, but reading your comments I think for a second I fell in love with you  Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #52 - July 18, 2013, 08:46 AM

    Join the queue mate ^^^  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #53 - July 18, 2013, 11:28 AM

     Cheesy Missing out on so many proposals, I'm starting to feel it's a travesty I'm not gay!  Cheesy
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #54 - July 18, 2013, 01:12 PM

     Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #55 - July 18, 2013, 01:22 PM

    Smart people turn me on. I could never have a long term romantic relationship with someone who wasn't on the same intellectual level as me.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #56 - July 19, 2013, 08:05 PM

    It's funny how you stated this but posted no actual reference to the NT. I mean...please show me where Jesus, or Paul, instruct the followers to run inquisitions and burn at the stake. Pretty pleaaaaase :3


    Wow you are correct, it is god in the OT that says in Exodus 22:18 that witches should be killed by the people. And obviously as jesus says not one jot or tittle of the law will be changed but will be fulfilled, so he is OK with the witch burning.

    The NT only says that god will burn witches in hell.................FOREVER BWAAAH BWAAH HAAAH!!

    So yes, the bible is SOOOOO much better than the quran huh?

    Seems your cherry-picking worked (this time), or do you really deny god's word about burning witches?

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #57 - July 19, 2013, 08:27 PM

    It's funny how you stated this but posted no actual reference to the NT. I mean...please show me where Jesus, or Paul, instruct the followers to run inquisitions and burn at the stake. Pretty pleaaaaase :3


    Wow your god must be really weak to feel threatened by an old hag with a boiling cauldron. Way to go Yahweh!

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #58 - July 19, 2013, 08:31 PM

    I have no idea how flexible our friend Gilmari is, so I'm not arguing against him unless I see a clear point of disagreement.
    [/quote]

    He seems like a cherry-picker if you ask me. Just like (nearly) every other apologist.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Winning an argument (according to the Quran)
     Reply #59 - July 19, 2013, 09:35 PM

    Wow your god must be really weak to feel threatened by an old hag with a boiling cauldron. Way to go Yahweh!


    I do feel the need to point out that's an incredibly offensive portrayal pushed by the Church as part of attempts to discredit and destroy the old ways. Witchcraft, like all other types of Paganism, are nature worshipping religions.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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